How Does Jesus' Death Bring Salvation?

[Amanda]

and aweful lot of Christians didn't show interest in God except on Sunday morning. So they believed that Hell was real, and they would escape it by going to a building with a spire once a week. Isn't that strange?

HanSolo, I don't know about Sweden, but here it is so pervasive in our culture. Most people don't have time to really, really think about it. Seemingly, it has been the beliefs of so many generations... it must be true. Heck, we even celebrate so many of our holidays around the main events... Easter and Christmas... not to mention a church on every corner. The mindset became... It has to be true... so why even question it?

 

I thought I had questioned it quite a bit... till coming here...

[R. S. Martin]

I know some people do read the Bible and they do believe very strongly in hell. And that fear seems to be a huge factor in what keeps them in the religion. It keeps them from questioning the faith.

Keyword: some

 

(But it's very likely a majority of American evangelicals are what you say they are. My experience from Sweden wasn't like that. We have different cultural background.)

 

I know very little about evangelical Bible-reading habits. I'm talking about Old Order Mennonites. I don't know how many of them read the Bible how faithfully. I would guess they all read a chapter now and then, but probably few ever read the entire Bible all the way through and I doubt that anyone memorizes more than a few verses here and there. Formal Bible study is against their rules because the churches that adopted formal Bible study left the old-fashioned way of life and worship; it is believed to lead to "the world."

 

Something else they weren't allowed was having radio and attending church services outside their own denomination. This made it impossible to listen to "hundreds" of pastors/ministers. However, the Old Order Mennonite community itself was large enough so that it was divided into many different church districts. Each district had its own set of ministers, including a preacher. On any given Sunday, only a third to a half of the church districts had church. The reason for this was so the other districts could visit. Thus, the ministers circulated and people heard at least a dozen different preachers.

 

On special occassions preachers would come from the States, so there would be still others over a person's lifetime. This was considered to be far superior to listening to only one pastor, like you mention.

 

I am like you; I wanted to know what the Bible says itself; I didn't just want to hear it from my mother.

 

I think only 30% of Catholics have ever read the Bible. While for Evangelicals the number is much higher, but still, there are evangelicals that never read the Bible.

 

I don't think we can blame the Catholics. Historically, they weren't allowed to read the Bible until very recently. Maybe I don't have my facts straight but were they really allowed to read the Bible before Vatican 2? Forty-five years may seem a long time for some of us, but for a church whose history dates back at least a millennia and a half, that's but yesterday. Something terrible that happened to your great-great-grandparents may well have come down to you as hard-core dogma that you just daren't do it. You would natural pass this bit of wisdom on to your own kids lest they get swindled. Unless--god forbid!--you were the skeptical type who questioned everything.

 

Here's the part I can't really understand: if they all believe Hell is literally true, and they believe the Bible is the literal word from God, how are they so sure they will avoid Hell?

 

I don't know about others but the Old Order Mennonite aren't. They preach against the "heresy" of the once-saved-always-saved doctrine. "Just as we don't know whether we will get home safely from our visit to grandpa's, we don't know if we will get to heaven." That was an analogy my mother often used. It was a powerful analogy because we lived on a very busy provincial highway. Late Sunday afternoons when we were on our way home from visiting Mom's parents, who lived two hours away by horse transportation, people were coming home from their cottages on Lake Huron. Cars were whizzing by at 60 mph or more.

 

The gravelled shoulders on that highway were wide enough for us to be completely off the paved lane used by the cars so we were safe but one never knew what freak accident might occur. It wouldn't take much for us to be mincemeat on someone's windshield and we knew that. That is how sure we were that we would get to heaven. That's what Mom would say when we were driving home from her parents' place. They believe there is no way to know whether or not you will get to heaven. My guess is that this could breed extreme uncertainty that leads to the once saved always saved doctine because not everyone can live with that level of uncertainty. And I didn't.

 

1. I had too many other things to worry about. See next point.

2. God was always made out to be such a loving and merciful God who could see the very thoughts and intents of our hearts. Herein was my assurance. I fully trusted God to understand me even though humans didn't. I knew the thoughts and intents of my heart were good, even though humans regularly misunderstood. My fear came from humans who condemned me for not living up to their expectations. They expected me to understand even when they said things they didn't mean. They twisted the things I said to mean things I never thought of. GOD COULD SEE THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF MY HEART. Such a God would never accuse me of meaning things I did not think of. I had nothing to fear of him. No false accusations. No hell.

 

I don't know how other OOM members deal with the uncertainty. I suspect many trust the church's judgment. The church has many rules and it uses discipline when those rules are not met. Public announcement of offences is a common form of discipine. Having to fast from Communion one time is another form. Excommunication is the ultimate form and it is reserved for gross or mortal sins. The strength of these forms of discipline lies in the social ostracization goes with it, along with the closed community; one has no social network outside the church. I kept my education a secret until I had developed a fairly extensive social network outside.

 

Another thought, maybe this is how it works. Most Christians do believe there is a literal Hell, but they not necessarily believe the same way how and what you have to do to avoid it. There are many name-only Christians in Sweden, and I can only think that the reason why they can skip Church, skip reading the Bible, skip praying and all that, and still believe they go to Heaven, is because they don't think those things are necessary to get the passport to the pearly gates.

 

I would guess you're onto something there. It would agree with my examples from my OOM background--my own as well as my fellow OOM. Just to take that one step further. I have heard of men raised OOM who wanted to leave the church for a more liberal church but they couldn't get past the barrier of getting driver's licence. In their mind, driving a car would keep them out of heaven. Yet most Christians in the world today think it's quite okay driving a car. For the Plain People, these mainstream fundamentalists and evangelicals are CINOs.

 

Numerically that is biblically sound. There are perhaps several hundred thousand Plain People world-wide. Jesus said "Straight is the way and narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it." Of all the billions of people who have ever lived, if there are just under a million who get into heaven, that would be "few." Naturally, that would include the "saints" mentioned in the Bible so we have to go by a Young Earth population and that immediately makes this entire post suspect. Maybe that will keep anyone from taking things too seriously that should not be taken too seriously.

 

Point is, Christians have more than one way to get to heaven and they have more than one definition for CINO. What is CINO for one sect is the down-to-earth sincere True Believer for another sect. No OOM gets through life without chewing on that one, even if they never leave the church. Someone they love is going to leave the church. Or they are going to learn to respect someone who is not of their own church and they will have to grapple with the idea of them spending eternity in hell--or the possibility that God is bigger than one kind of Christianity.

[Ouroboros]

From another thread:

 

...

Kat, just so you won't appear so ignorant and out-classed, Paul thinks that outside of Christ there is no hope for humans in this world. That is what I was taught all my life. It was preached to me every Sunday and every day between Sundays by my parents and teachers. But is it really true? Exactly WHAT does Christ do that is so stupendous? All he does is die on a cross. Lots of people did that. Why, two men did that right along side of him. Sure, they didn't have to bear the sin of the entire world but their physical anguish was probably just as great as that of Jesus. Probably greater because they got their legs broken into the bargain.

...

Ruby, yet again you make me think about something I haven't thought about before.

 

The thiefs that died there too, one of them said something like that Jesus was the son of God (or whatever) and Jesus told him he would be in Heaven with him. This means that the salvation does not come from believing in Jesus as the savior for sins, but just from believing that Jesus is the son of God. Somehow that doesn't really rime with whole salvation message, does it? I will ask this question in the other thread about "salvation" you started and you can give me the answer there.

 

I think there are these following ways of believing to be "saved":

 

1) Pre NT - For people who lived before Jesus:believe in YHWH and the supposed coming savior

2) During Jesus - for people who lived during the time of Jesus supposed to live: believe Jesus is the son of God

3) Post Jesus - for people who lives after Jesus: believe Jesus died for sin (and perhaps have to believe he's son of God too)

4) Lack Gospel - for people who never head about Jesus or the Bible or Christianity: they get a special -unknown- treatment or judgment, maybe saved, maybe not.

 

Any other type missing?

 

What I find interesting is that it is not "one" way but different ways of believing to go to Heaven.

[R. S. Martin]

You bring out a point I never thought of. I've heard sermons on this thief's confession but never about this particular perspective.

 

Yesterday I was reading Calvinism and predestination. Suddenly I thought, Hey, I want to be an exCalvinist rather than an exAnabaptist. Why?

 

That's simple. Anabaptists believe that so long as I live I can still repent. Thus, the pressure is on so long as I breathe. Calvinists believe that if I deconvert I never was a Christian--I wasn't one of the elect to begin with. That being the case, no matter how hard I try I can never be a Christian. That relieves me of the pressure or responsibility.

 

Oh sure, the author said it doesn't but the loophole is there. He can't explain it away.

 

My reasoning: If it's true for the Calvinists (and Romans 9 is solid scripture to support their teaching) then it's also true for the Anabaptists. If I want to, I can decide to reinterpret that passage to suit my tastes.

 

Fact of the matter is, that passage had caused me extreme anxiety while I was a Christian. I could not live with the idea that God would condemn some people just because he felt like it. Finally, I found someone (a minister and his wife) who told me, "It doesn't say that Esau and Pharaoh went to hell."

 

I had to agree. It doesn't say that. That gave me some relief, but I felt uneasy with the explanation because it did not seem consistent with the rest of the Bible and the church's teachings. In all other cases throughout the Bible and the church's teachings Esau and Pharaoh represented the bad guys who went to hell. To make an exception for Romans 9 seemed inconsistent, and therefore unsafe.

 

Here is the part that bothered me most, esp. the bolded part.

 

Rom. 9:20-22, NRSV:

^

But who...are you...to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?â€

^{21}

Has the potter no right over the clay

, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use?

^{22}

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction;

Let's look at the first sentence, Who are you to argue with God? There is a sting to that statement. Who, indeed, am I?

 

If you're asking me, then I am a human being with the right to fair treatment. And, as such, I am not a lump of clay over which the potter has a right to decide whether he will make it for damnation or for heaven. If you can't compare apples and oranges, then you can't compare the eternal comfort of human beings with the transient use of earthenware.

 

I think where the analogy works is when talking about vocation or career. A piece of earthenware may be used as a johny-on-the-spot or as a precious vase. There's a difference. I may have a career that is highly visible and honoured in the community, or not. It is transient. There are pros and cons for both and neither necessarily impinge on my quality of life. What Paul is talking about is quality of existence, not for one little lifetime as we know it, but for eternity. This is not okay.

 

Now that I see the Bible as a book of myths or worse, I can deal with that passage. But when I was a Christian, I couldn't.

 

Back to your question, Hans, as to whether you're missing any types. If I may, I would suggest you are missing the type that this thread is about. The type that did their best to understand the Bible and salvation message but simply couldn't because it makes no sense. And Christians refuse to answer the questions intelligibly, and I of my own self am incapable of making sense of the explanations that are given.

 

It is definitely not from want of trying. Evidence: I gave it till I was forty years old. Then I spent a number of years studying theology formally. That cost me money I didn't have. If this is a religion for uneducated slaves, women, and children, why do I have to spend so much time and money and energy in church and in school to find answers? Perhaps because they don't exist.

 

On this, and other forums, I have found I am far from the only person who has been unable to find answers to legitimate questions about Christianity. Thus, I think that is a type that should be included in your list.

 

Uh, I looked at your post again. I don't know. If we start this way, then we have to include all the reasons people deconvert about and it seems your question is more about whether or not people had opportunity to hear about the so-called gospel. I say so-called because "gospel" is supposed to mean "good news" and it was anything but good news for me and a lot of others. Many of us are lucky to be alive despite what this so-called gospel did to us. I can't think of any other categories from the perspective you're talking about.

[Guest Marty]

If you can't compare apples and oranges, then you can't compare the eternal comfort of human beings with the transient use of earthenware.

 

I love this!!!