Legion Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Okay you godless heathens, I seem to have detected a common theme with several fundamentalists and I wanted to bring it to the table. I have few opinions in this matter and less knowledge. The theme is “moral decline.†I have now heard more than one Christian assert that we are in a moral decline. I could find no thread specifically devoted to this subject so here it is. I am having a difficult time expressing myself so I am just going to brainstorm some questions. What evidence do we have that a moral decline has occurred or is occurring? What kind of time frame are we considering? In what way can it be said that we are now morally bankrupt? What sorts of things do we use as indicators of moral standing? (e.g. crime rates? divorces? out-of-wedlock births? etc.) Do societies experience fluctuations in moral fiber and if so, why? That’s all I could come up with for the moment. This is the Lion’s Den so this discussion is open to all. Please educate me and share your thoughts and opinions. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Okay you godless heathens, I seem to have detected a common theme with several fundamentalists and I wanted to bring it to the table. I have few opinions in this matter and less knowledge. The theme is “moral decline.†I have now heard more than one Christian assert that we are in a moral decline. I could find no thread specifically devoted to this subject so here it is. Christians run on hysteria and speak without knowledge. It's why they believe in talking snakes, poison apples that doom mankind, and a host of other bs. I'd like for them to defend the major decline in their own houses first.. but this is a great topic LR!! I can't wait to see some answers, thanks for posting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsus Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 This is simply a recurring tactic used by various groups/people since time immemorial. It is the classical "good old days" syndrome, where people look back on the sanitized past as a beacon. In terms of American Christianity, this has taken the form of "society has been going to hell in a handbasket since the 1960's. While some things have become more common, other things have not, just more publicized and in some cases have lost their stigmatization. Let's just look at some of the accepted morality of pre-1960 America. Blacks and other minorities were legally and socially discriminated against, up to and including the frequent and unpunished use of lethal means (lynching). In the time from 1911 - 1935, it is estimated that up to 20% of American men were members of the Ku Klux Klan, including the President of the US, Woodrow Wilson. Miscegenation was a crime in most parts of the US, until believe it or not, the 1990's, although unenforced since the 1950's. Sexuality was repressed in pre-1960 America. Unwed mothers were shunned and/or put in seclusion. The list goes on and on. Real statistics however show that crime increases with poverty in general in society. Outside of the very rough large cities, most people will never experience violent crime first hand. What is moral and immoral has changed. It is no longer immoral for people of different races to marry and have children, in the majority of society. It is no longer moral to be a prejudiced asshat, it is in fact a pretty much death sentence to success and social acceptance. In my opinion, fundamentalists yearn for the days when their fears, prejudices and hates were encoded in law and enforced by the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 For one thing when Christians talk about moral decline, they are usually from the US and speak about conditions in the US. Is the US the only country that matters to god? The Women's Christian Temperance Movement in the 19th and early 20th century said the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common, Children no longer obey their parents. Every man wants to write a book, and the end of the world evidently is approaching.Assyrian tablet circa 2800 BCE All societies go through periods of decline, and we do appear to be experiencing one now. It has nothing to do with god or the end of the world or any of that shit. It's just the way the world works. The fundies are stupid, ignorant backward hicks who don't know shit, not even about their own damn holy book or religion. But then, we all know that anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 It all depends on what you consider to be moral decline. There's a multitude of things that fundies have created into moral issues that really aren't. Homosexuality and transgenderism. Smoking weed. Hell, to some churches even today, women wearing their hair short, men wearing their hair long, and women wearing pants is a huge moral issue. Somehow they tend to overlook things I'd consider to be important morally, like greed. So in the end, I really think Christians by and large are completely clueless and just babble this shit to create end times "Jesus is coming back soon" hysteria and to try to promote their selfish agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I think when fundies start talking about a moral decline they are referring to a decline since the 1950s. Somehow they think this period of time was more morally correct. I agree with Bruce. It's the "good old days." They view the 1960s as the beginning of the decline, and they don't want change. They want us to go back to the ideal of the 1950's USA--- an era of overt racism and homophobia, where the women stayed home with the kids, men called the shots at home, divorce was harder to get, and there weren't any of those illegal drugs, birth control pills or wild hippies. Everything was hushed up and put under cover. I don't think there is a moral decline. People haven't changed. I would say that society is a bit more open now and less hidden, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I got into a discussion with a funny mental almost over this same subject a few weeks ago. He claimed Christians followed the law cuz they respect authority over themselves. Christians admit that they need supervision (through law enforcement and incarceration) in their day to day activities or they revert to their former selves, which I understand is not too pretty. To prove his point, the god-fearing lover of humanity gave me several statistics. 1. He claims 75% of Americans are Christian (when speaking to Christians, they pull statistics out of their hats or other inspired orifice.) 2. He claims 10% of the American population are atheists. He did not discuss about 80% of the prison population are Christian and around .02% are atheists. Some argue prisoners become Christian after going to prison but the majority checking in for the first time are the law obedient Christians who want to put us in jail for their short-comings. They cannot rule their own lives because they expect god to control them like a Nintendo Wii by the Holy Ghost, like a remote. To make up for it, they pass law after law claiming they have to protect their way of life from the rest of us. This leads me to believe that we would not have so many people in prison if it were not for the moralistic legislated phoney home values taught by Christianity. If it weren't for Christians, there would not be so many people in prison. Our nation is in ruins because of Christianity. I forget the name of the person who wrote that the most moral society is also the most corrupt society but it is found in our prison population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Some argue prisoners become Christian after going to prison According to About.com, who gathered their stats from BJS, the recidivism rate in the US is 67%. So, must be that Jesus doesn't have the power to transform lives, much less provide his followers with a workable moral guide. Sixty-seven percent of former inmates released from U.S. state prisons in 1994 were back in jail within three years, according to a study conducted by the Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). The figures indicate re-arrest rates have increased by five-percent since 1983. http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa060702a.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Christians are just lamenting their loss of control over all things religious in America. In the past couple of decades their monopoly in public about what religious means has crumbled, as the counrty accepts all the other religions out there, as well as those who wish to not belong to any religion. It is the reaction anyone who has lost power, they whine for the good ole days when they were King of the Hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 ...He did not discuss about 80% of the prison population are Christian and around .02% are atheists. Some argue prisoners become Christian after going to prison but the majority checking in for the first time are the law obedient Christians who want to put us in jail for their short-comings. ... And consider this: have you ever heard an atheist murderer using the argument: "God told me to do it"? Probably not. It seems like atheists don't have imaginary friends talking to them and telling them to kill people, or steal. Only religious people can claim that feat. I wonder why?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I think when fundies start talking about a moral decline they are referring to a decline since the 1950s. Somehow they think this period of time was more morally correct. I agree with Bruce. It's the "good old days." They view the 1960s as the beginning of the decline, and they don't want change. They want us to go back to the ideal of the 1950's USA--- an era of overt racism and homophobia, where the women stayed home with the kids, men called the shots at home, divorce was harder to get, and there weren't any of those illegal drugs, birth control pills or wild hippies. Everything was hushed up and put under cover. I don't think there is a moral decline. People haven't changed. I would say that society is a bit more open now and less hidden, that's all. I agree with you. Nothing was different then, as a matter of fact I think it was a lot worse. Another problem was there were all these service men who had been through the horrors of war and they were supposed to just integrate back into society and simply forget about the years they spent at war. PTSD wasn't even a disease yet. The entire fucking country played along, pretending everything was a utopian white upper middle class ideal. They didn't have nearly any of the social programs to help. A woman had to live with domestic violence because there was no other choice. Children who were abused showed up at school bruised and beaten and teachers and no one else was allowed to intervene, it was a family problem that no one got involved in. If a teen became pregnant she was shipped off to a home for unwed mothers, only to return home after giving birth to a child she was not even allowed to see and pretend nothing happened. Orphanges (or as I call them "child pounds") abounded. Divorced women and single mothers were seen as pariahs. Psychoanalisis fucked up people more than they already were. I talked to someone who had contracted polio when she was a child in the 50's and was in a wheelchair. She told me when she became handicapped, she became family's dirty secret and was kept in a room alone. Anyone outside the family didn't even knew she existed. That's how the 50's were. Let's also not fail to mention the horrific conditions of mental institutions and institutionalized care for the disabled and the practice of eugenics, which didn't stop until the 70's. Really, if you take away the pleasant facade, it was hell of a lot worse than it is today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 Divorced women and single mothers were seen as pariahs. Some might say that this is evidence that we ARE in moral decline. They might say that the fact that divorced women and single mothers are now more acceptable things might be an indication that we have somehow loosened our standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 "Moral decline"...Bah! That's a smoke screen and a bullshit phrase that control freaks and religious people regurgitate to cover what they truly mean. Simply stated, it means that THEY (those who once enjoyed power and dominance) have lost their grip upon the reigns of control. People are becoming free from ridiculous, religious restraints and tolerance for once forbidden/outlawed practices has increased and is getting better. "Moral decline" is a religious euphemism that means "we aren't in control of how people think and behave anymore, we're scared shit-less, and we want our control back! Oh, bring back the good old days when we could stone and burn heretics, witches, niggers, unwed mothers and fags! Glory be to Gawd!" There is no "moral decline." Morals are mercurial and they change from generation to generation and from culture to culture. That is the nature of "morals." And the only "decline" occurring is the declining hold the religious control freaks have upon people's behaviors. Which pisses them off to no end. ~ Checkmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I asked this of the elderly group I meet with Wed. evenings.....median age approx. 80. They link it to when women went to work during WWII. Not my opinion...just some data for your discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Divorced women and single mothers were seen as pariahs. Some might say that this is evidence that we ARE in moral decline. They might say that the fact that divorced women and single mothers are now more acceptable things might be an indication that we have somehow loosened our standards. Which brings us back to full circle that Christians would prefer the women to sit down and shuddup, and if they are out of line should get an occasional smack. What is the worse option? To oppress and abuse someone, forcing them to take what ever shits given to them and being treated not much better then the farm animals while keeping the divorce rate low, Or for the person to break away from the abuse, unhappy life and stand on her own? The Xtains love to control women and don't believe they have any place in society to be leaders. They believe a women should obey her husband, The women was alway to blame for pregnancy's and shunned if it happened to take place out of wedlock, while the guy got off scott free. Rapes were not reported for fear of being painted a slut. Just because things were hidden from public awareness doesn't mean it didn't go on. Does everyone here honestly believe that priests only started abusing their victims in the 70s/80s? This probably went on for decades if not not longer, the churches lack of outrage and master cover-ups with their own priests and bishops proves that point. It was a secret that was absolved by other priests and they had their way with innocent trusting people. People are held captive by their dogma, master manipulators know how to bend weaker people to their will through fear and coercion. The immoral forced the moral and kept it secret, it doesn't mean morals were higher or better then, just things weren't talked about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I asked this of the elderly group I meet with Wed. evenings.....median age approx. 80. They link it to when women went to work during WWII. Not my opinion...just some data for your discussion... Yup, xtianity thinks "women's place is in the home" (in general) so, when the women's rights movement took hold, it was viewed as "moral decline" and "moving away from xtian values". This is totally stupid viewpoint. Since an atheist, has no "devil" to use as a scapegoat, *we* have to take FULL responsiblity for our actions. There is no, "I was under evil influence". So, this makes us a bit more concerned about our own actions, since we have nobody or nothing to blame but ourselves. Atheists and agnostics have been *much* more moral people in my world, from my observation, then religious people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I asked this of the elderly group I meet with Wed. evenings.....median age approx. 80. They link it to when women went to work during WWII. Not my opinion...just some data for your discussion... Yeah, the women did the shit jobs so the boys could either go fight or go the higher paying jobs. Rosie the Riveter propaganda was born. Interesting read, enjoy it. Rosie the Riveter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Okay you godless heathens, I seem to have detected a common theme with several fundamentalists and I wanted to bring it to the table. I have few opinions in this matter and less knowledge. The theme is “moral decline.†I have now heard more than one Christian assert that we are in a moral decline. I could find no thread specifically devoted to this subject so here it is. I am having a difficult time expressing myself so I am just going to brainstorm some questions. What evidence do we have that a moral decline has occurred or is occurring? What kind of time frame are we considering? In what way can it be said that we are now morally bankrupt? What sorts of things do we use as indicators of moral standing? (e.g. crime rates? divorces? out-of-wedlock births? etc.) Do societies experience fluctuations in moral fiber and if so, why? That’s all I could come up with for the moment. This is the Lion’s Den so this discussion is open to all. Please educate me and share your thoughts and opinions. Thanks. Great topic LR. It's all a matter of perception. Decline to some is improvement to others. Most people who decry changes in society are simply calling it a negative like "decline" because change is difficult and scarey. Some would say that mixed marriages is moral decline - and I'm not talking about races, but Norwegiens marrying Germans! Yes, the old ladies of end3's group might have a few things to barb at on that decline in morality: I asked this of the elderly group I meet with Wed. evenings.....median age approx. 80. They link it to when women went to work during WWII. Not my opinion...just some data for your discussion... Actually end3 brings up a very valid point. It really did begin (the change in society - not the decline), when the women had to enter the work-force while all the men were off at war. When the men came back and the women were expected to give up their jobs and fall back in line behind the men again, then you had a push back happen. So what the cause? Economics, really. The women who didn't want to give up the freedoms and independence they gained by being in the workforce, were the big "trouble-makers". They were those who led the way for women's rights, which led the way for civil-rights for blacks, oh my.... the decline, the decline! People just hate change. They quite often are willing to give up freedom of choice for the stability of being kept. And those who dare try to lead society to change that are 'serving the devil'. Reactionary. That's all this is, that's all they are. Reactionaries. Nothing more. There is no decline. It's just change, and change happens because it needs to. Love it or lump it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 Well I have been looking at other sources in addition to reading the comments that you guys have posted here and I am unable to reach any conclusions. Most of my original questions remain. I am unable to determine if we are or if we are not in a moral decline. I guess that the burden of proof resides with those who make the assertion. And those who make the charge or assertion that we are in moral decline will have to do more than provide anecdotal evidence to convince me. I find it interesting that for me this last came up in a conversation with a Christian. They asked me why I left Christianity and I told them that among the reasons were the Church’s teachings on sex. I felt that the church was somehow telling me that my desire for women was wrong and sinful. I knew instinctively that they were full of it. My desire for women is a natural, healthy part of who I am. Now this doesn’t mean that I try to screw every woman in sight. In fact I have always been a monogamous lover. As long as I am getting some I feel little need to sample other goods. It’s not worth the hassle for me. And I have always valued the quality of loyalty anyway. I am drifting off subject a bit I think. But I wanted to quickly acknowledge something here. I do think that women are more powerful today than they have ever been. They have jobs. They have the pill. They can vote and there are now numerous laws protecting the rights of women. The women of today are more powerful in my estimation than their predecessors of only 100 years ago. Do some women abuse this power? Of course they do. But I would still like to think that most women strive to conduct themselves in a noble fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Divorced women and single mothers were seen as pariahs. Some might say that this is evidence that we ARE in moral decline. They might say that the fact that divorced women and single mothers are now more acceptable things might be an indication that we have somehow loosened our standards. Legion Regalis, I think this is a valid issue, however, I think statistics show that more "Christians" are divorcing, at a higher rate than the rest of the population. If we really examine morality, how does the US measure up to the rest of the world? Plus, if you look at the substantiation of moral values being upheld... maybe the Muslim countries are doing the best? I was recently reading an article on the effects divorce has on adolescent males, and the studies show that the majority of males involved in the juvenile criminal system were from either a single parent and/or of divorced parents. It seems they tend to act out anger moreso than those from stable two parent families. Yet, I've heard it is better to be from a broken home, than live in one... A few years ago, I was reading some concerns of the federal government in regards to a program they have, called Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, and one of their major thrusts was on Attachment Disorders. This is not a valid diagnosis for an adult, only children... yet, it seems we could have lots of adults that have problems in this area too. Doesn't it just seem to make sense that children raised in a solid, functional, caring family with both their parents have a better chance than those that don't? And doesn't it seem that the ones that are acting out in the schools, killing people, seem to have felt they were taunted to do this ,to some degree, by the "Christians" or some other judgemental crowd. That's how it seemed in the Columbine scenario. How is the US doing in morality compared to the rest of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Amanda, I wouldn't say it was divorce per se as much as poverty being the cause. Face it, in most cases women loose out financially in divorce. The strains of supporting a family and household are enormous plus the emotional strain of parenting are too much to bear. I would like to look at that study and see how many of the families were below the poverty line. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Face it, in most cases women loose out financially in divorce. A bit off-topic, but most men would disagree with that. I've never heard of a woman paying spousal support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknowing1 Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Face it, in most cases women loose out financially in divorce. A bit off-topic, but most men would disagree with that. I've never heard of a woman paying spousal support. Actually as women have started to earn more and their salaries are starting to become more in line with men's, the orders for women to pay spousal support as are the numbers of Qualified or Approved Domestic Relations Orders (edit: against women) that are being issued are increasing. But that doesn't mean the average woman is earning more than their husband, there is still a significant difference in the salaries especially for woman who leave the workforce in order to raise the children. When they do reenter the workforce years later in most cases they are starting from scratch and are at entry level wage, that is if they can find a job. As for moral decline I think that we aren't so much in a moral decline as we are living in a technologically advanced, more accepting and more populated world. Years ago you didn't have all the news groups that you have now, nor the number of news channels. What happened in your town, usually stayed in your town. With technology we have the ability to spread more news faster and to a larger audience. Years ago if you were an unwed pregnant teenager you wouldn't dare set foot into a school, in a lot of cases you were shipped off to some home for pregnant teens and you sure as heck had a lot of pressure on you to give that baby up for adoption once it was born. If you were gay, you didn't dare state it, if you did you'd lose everything including your life. Years ago no one kept all the statistics that we keep now either, most of the time the things you hear about today that are considered as being immoral were kept quiet and couldn't accurately be counted. As time has progressed and laws have been created to end discrimination, more people are taking a stand and living their life the way they want to live it. They aren't living behind closed doors, cowering in fear waiting for those judgmental folks to come after them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Amanda, I wouldn't say it was divorce per se as much as poverty being the cause. Face it, in most cases women loose out financially in divorce. The strains of supporting a family and household are enormous plus the emotional strain of parenting are too much to bear. I would like to look at that study and see how many of the families were below the poverty line. Taph Taph, I can't find the original report I had read awhile back, however I did do some research and found that what you say does seem to have a great impact on the situation. More here , and some of this article says this: 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. [u. S. D.H.H.S. Bureau of the Census] 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes. 85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes. [Center for Disease Control] 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes. [Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14 p. 403-26] 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. [National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools] 70% of juveniles in state operated institutions come from fatherless homes [u.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept., 1988] 85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home. [Fulton County Georgia Jail Populations and Texas Dept. of Corrections, 1992] Nearly 2 of every 5 children in America do not live with their fathers. [uS News and World Report, February 27, 1995, p.39] What does this mean? Children from fatherless homes are: 4.6 times more likely to commit suicide, 6.6 times to become teenaged mothers (if they are girls, of course), 24.3 times more likely to run away, 15.3 times more likely to have behavioral disorders, 6.3 times more likely to be in a state-operated institutions, 10.8 times more likely to commit rape, 6.6 times more likely to drop out of school, 15.3 times more likely to end up in prison while a teenager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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