It's The 15th Of December - The Miracle Countdown

[Grandpa Harley]

TBH the only place you're likely to walk away from a crash in a lap belt is if you're in a plane. Cars really need a five pointer for you to all but guarantee a walk away from a roll...

[Ouroboros]

That's very true. A three-point isn't completely safe either, but it's better than two-point.

 

---edit---

 

Update:

 

Nothing has happened. My son still in bed, playing XBox 360 right now. And somehow I managed to get really sick last night. So I got a sore throat and dizzy head.

 

Well, I guess that's what you get when you challenge God. He punishes you even more. But it doesn't prove his existence, but rahter that if he does exist, he's a selfish, old, mean bastard. (Sorry to take that title from you GH. )

 

Over the years I've learned to take the day as it comes and try to be happy for every moment. So this doesn't change anything. My emotions are untouched. Life goes on. But now I have something to point back to, and tell Christians, see, we did try and nothing changed.

 

Belief and God is just words, and the believer is just stuck into their own little understanding of what they think it means. A real God must exist outside of the definitions of language. He must be active and participating in daily life. Not until that can be proven to me, there is no Christian God.

 

But nature, reality, the universe, existence, that is there and keeps on reminding itself to me. So if there's a God, his name is Nature. And funny enough, that fits better into the argument in Romans that claims that we should know there is a God by looking at nature, and yes, I do see a God... Nature itself is the God. This nature God's awareness is contained in us. We are the eyes, ears and mouth for Nature. And we have the legs, arms and tools to do something about threats to the existence of Nature. In this sense, the only mission one true believe should have, is to make sure we make a better world.

[Mythra]

Well, it's disappointing of course.

 

But not surprising.

 

None of us held out much hope for a miracle of this magnitude.

 

Truth be known, no christians do either.

[Ouroboros]

Agree.

 

What upsets me most, is not if there is a God or not, or if this God would be good or evil, but that people maintain this notion and keep up excuses for why and how God do things or not. They say "God does miracles, just pray", and when you do and nothing happens it's either "you had not faith" or "it wasn't God's plan" or "you didn't pray right" or "it will come later" or "God is not a vending machine". So make up your mind, does God do miracles or is he just a bucket full of excuses? It's like the brother that promised you to help you with something but he keeps on holding it off with 1001 excuses and you finally realize that he never intended to do it anyway, he just didn't want to tell you.

[R. S. Martin]

Hans, I can't imagine how difficult this must be for you. Thankfully all of my children are healthy. I have no idea how I would handle it if I had to deal with what you face. My heart goes out to you. I wish it were really possible for a god to perform miracles like this.

 

Hugs,

 

~Kel

 

Well, the deadline's came and past without so much as a question from the xtians "how's your son", that speaks VOLUMES on how much faith they have that the "miracle" happened.

 

This bolded part--that's another of those things that builds up the pressure inside of me (if I let it or think about what is really being said) so that I want to scream and smash stuff or worse. Does it ever get better--the rage at the injustices inflicted by a lifetime of lies and broken promises from these hateful religionists?

 

Kelli! Cool sig! Nice to see snow for a change, been a while since I saw any.

 

Weather there must be about the same as here.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks guys.

 

My son is still sleeping, so I will report as soon as he's awake.

 

 

Ruby,

 

Yes, I have 5 kids, and I love them all equally. The accident happened 11 years ago, my wife and brother in law (who was driving) were supposed to drive up to Washinton State with my kids but on the way there had been a situation with two trucks. And the road was blocked with a large steel coil. Well, there's so many details to the story and it would take an aweful long time to write it all down, but in short, I was not in the car, I was home working - or actually sleeping. My wife and brother in law took the kids in the van to go to Washinton state to visit family on my wife's side. They wanted to do a little stop a MacDonalds, but they missed the off-ramp in the dark (God could have done a very small miracle here to prevent the following events - if he had just made them aware of the off-ramp in time, nothing of this would have happened). They continue on the road, and they see the trucks on the right side, and move to the left lane, where the coil is. And in the dark and it was raining, you can't see this roll of stell, and the truck drivers who had been there for 10-15 minutes didn't start any flares or any warning signs at all. So my famiily smashed into the roll in full speed and pretty much the impact and the injuries from the seat belt caused all the problems. They say the safest place is in the middle seat in the back. So of some freak statistics ignorance, they mean that you are less likely to die in that seat, but you will be crippled for life. This is where he was. My other kids got injured too, but not as much. My two other sons had broken spines too, and one of them had to have it fused, the other one a body cast. My oldest daughter got into a mental shock that lasted for months. She would only scream, and not say a word. Only my youngest one could go home the same day. But my wife also were severely hurt, and the brother in law got a few small injuries. The safest place is in the drivers seat. When you see "5 star safety" rating, it means in the driver seat, not in the passanger seat or the back seats, they are about "zero star rating" most of the time. Just so you know. It's better now though, and our accident and following lawsuits that lasted until this year have been part of forcing the car industry to put in a three-point belt in the back-middle seat.

 

Thanks for the story. A god who could but just didn't bother. He could have shown the ramp. He could have made the headlights of the car or some other light glance off the steel so the driver saw it. He could have made the workers set up the flares first thing. He could have caused the traffic to slow to a crawl for some other reason. He could have prevented the accident. But he didn't.

 

He could have kept his promises to listen to the prayers of his people. He could have kept his promise to be with his faithful and look out for a family of faithful believers and innocent kids. But he didn't bother. He could hae sent a bolt of lightening right in time to show the coil of steel. Isn't lightening God's flashlight? But he didn't bother. Some god he is.

[R. S. Martin]

Agree.

 

What upsets me most, is not if there is a God or not, or if this God would be good or evil, but that people maintain this notion and keep up excuses for why and how God do things or not. They say "God does miracles, just pray", and when you do and nothing happens it's either "you had not faith" or "it wasn't God's plan" or "you didn't pray right" or "it will come later" or "God is not a vending machine". So make up your mind, does God do miracles or is he just a bucket full of excuses? It's like the brother that promised you to help you with something but he keeps on holding it off with 1001 excuses and you finally realize that he never intended to do it anyway, he just didn't want to tell you.

 

And he thinks by not telling he is being kind. It's one of the most hateful behaviours humans can devise.

[Grandpa Harley]

Not really a surprise

 

bit of a bugger for two reasons...

 

1) Han's son isn't better

 

2) I look REALLY hot in black...

 

[Ouroboros]

Thanks for the story. A god who could but just didn't bother. He could have shown the ramp. He could have made the headlights of the car or some other light glance off the steel so the driver saw it. He could have made the workers set up the flares first thing. He could have caused the traffic to slow to a crawl for some other reason. He could have prevented the accident. But he didn't.

 

He could have kept his promises to listen to the prayers of his people. He could have kept his promise to be with his faithful and look out for a family of faithful believers and innocent kids. But he didn't bother. He could hae sent a bolt of lightening right in time to show the coil of steel. Isn't lightening God's flashlight? But he didn't bother. Some god he is.

That's exactly my thoughts. It didn't take much for God to prevent what happend, but if God exists and if he could have done something, then he must have decided not to. And in the years that followed, I kept my faith, but it was severly shaken. My trust (faith) in God was damaged. You can only trust (have faith in) a person who is consistent in what they do, and that they also take care of you. But in the years the followed, we had many more struggles to go through, with corrupt laywers, financial market crashing, my son being ill many times over which affected my work and my career to the degree that I had to change job a couple of times. I could feel I was getting closer to a heart attack, and nothing was happening to really help out of it, or help my family. So I realized, God didn't do anything to help us in this situation. If anyone would help us, it would be me and ourself only. There's no magical pill that solves all problems. The only way to face reality is to literally face it and not shy behind a blind fantasy. Now we're doing much better, financially at the moment, and mostly in health - except for the new infection and me getting the flu. But all things considered, we are better off now, and the result was the loss of our faith. We've talked about it before, that faith is a kind of trust, and we lost that trust in Miracle Jesus-God, since he can't do one single thing to prove his existence.

[R. S. Martin]

I could feel I was getting closer to a heart attack, and nothing was happening to really help out of it, or help my family. So I realized, God didn't do anything to help us in this situation. If anyone would help us, it would be me and ourself only. There's no magical pill that solves all problems. The only way to face reality is to literally face it and not shy behind a blind fantasy. Now we're doing much better, financially at the moment, and mostly in health - except for the new infection and me getting the flu.

 

Are you saying your heart problem (or what felt like a heart problem) went away after you let go of God?

 

THAT is worth mentioning.

 

I cannot say that any physical symptoms have improved for me but everytime I so much as comptemplate or play with the idea of taking up religion again my body feels exhausted. That was a huge reason I just gave it up in the first place. All these decades I've been seeking with all my being for some evidence however meager that God does exist--and for some logic or rhyme or reason to the plan of salvation worthy of the kind of god he was supposed to be--all completely and totally in vain.

 

I thought I had answers to both questions at some point or other but I couldn't get anyone to agree with me. And I figured if this thing is as real as they say it is then I must be wrong. The Bible verse that comes to mind is the one in 2 Peter 1:20 about there being no scripture of private interpretation. So if I am the only one for whom it resonates it probably isn't right.

 

So if Christians can't come up with answers and if the answers I find don't resonate with them, then it seems there are no answers. And if there are no answers the whole religion thing probably is bullshit. That's Brother Jeff's term but it comes in handy now and then. By late summer 2006 I had scrubbed and scraped the religious barrel clean of bullshit and still came up empty. I had nowhere to go and nobody to talk to. Didn't know what to do. I had felt some attraction to paganism for some time and I had an email for a person whom I knew was part of a local pagan group but I couldn't muster the courage to contact him.

 

I did manage to get a private chat with a person from a forum I was on at the time. He gave me a few authors to read. That got me started. I figured out a more neutral excuse to contact this pagan person and then introduced the question about religion. We arranged to meet on a date. In the meantime I had to get my eyes tested (routine visit). And the optometrist started asking personal questions and refused to accept that I didn't want to talk about my beliefs. Long story short, he told his story and then I felt obligated and told him about the planned meeting with the pagan. He then evangelized me, which he took way out of line and when I got home I realized it and let him know in pretty strong language. I got discharged from the clinic; no reason stated.

 

Later I told my sister about this by way of sharing. I nearly forgot but suddenly realized before we hung up that she might be interested to know this tid-bit about my life. Do I ever wish I'd not bothered! She turned cold on me and accused me of breaking my promise not to tell her when I stopped going to church. (Was meeting with a pagan on a late Monday afternoon "not going to church"? ) The family has turned cold on me. All the shit around my mother's funeral happened because they know I don't believe in the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the god who led the Israelites out of Egypt.

 

It's so stupid. I haven't believed in THAT god for twenty years! They just don't know it. If it had been safe for me to not be a Christian I would never have been a christian. I don't think I ever was a real christian because I always trusted that some day things would make sense. They never made sense and I cannot believe something that makes no sense. I did not believe the things when I professed beleif back at 17 when I got baptized but people refused to explain what it means to say "I believe...." I begged to know and I talked about my question and they just told me I'd understand eventually. One thing was clear--actually two things were clear: 1. I had to go through with tradition and accept the faith if I knew what was good for me--I had to do as they said even if it didn't make sense and even if it seemed like lying because it wasn't really (I never articulated it this way but my questions aimed at it; I just couldn't get anyone to discuss my questions). 2. Nobody was going to answer any questions that I had even though they said I should ask.

 

People here might ask, "What would have happened if you hadn't gotten baptized?" It was critical to the social-emotional situation. I found out recently of a person in a similar situation who had the emotional stamina not to accept baptism because she knew she would never want to be a member in that church. By the time she was twenty all her friends had left her. I understand there was no announcement or anything; they just weren't there anymore. I would guess it was a gradual withdrawal spread out over two or three years after they got baptized and she did not. They would have expected her to get baptized one of the following years. But when she didn't get baptized at age twenty, they would have realized that she didn't mean to get baptized. And that would have put her outside their frame of reference along with other sinners and unbelievers even though they had been friends for years. It seems to me that kind of friendship cannot be very deep or meaningful but I know it's the way a lot of people operate. They claim, "We have nothing in common."

 

So what is the stuff these people have in common? They can pat each other on the back about what great sinners they all are. They can share gossip (in the name of praying for the situation) about some horrible thing that someone did in the community. They can rip and tear each other to shreds behind each other's backs with the full knowledge that they have to love and forgive each other because they all want to have Communion with each other come Communion time. (That is twice a year in this community.) I dunno if this is what they think they have in common. It sounds awfully shallow and barbarian to me. I had a prof who was in the habit of saying, "They had enough in common to fight."

 

I guess people who have nothing in common can't fight. There is the occassional story of life where the one party decides not to fight. And then there is no war. The two parties do not have enough common interests even to fight. I know this is a sensitive issue and that it depends a lot on the situation as to whether or not one can afford not to fight. But I think he does have a point of sorts. So these young women who all get baptized at the right ages and do all the right things for their community at the right time also get to fight each other and have this terrible love/hate relationship that passes for Christianity but their unbaptized friend gets left out in the cold because she is serious about this stuff and won't compromise on her beliefs.

 

Eventually she moved to a liberal Mennonite church and got baptized there. She tells me there has never been a time when she did not know that God existed. I think she will be a Christian for life, but for her this stuff is really real. She knows I have deconverted and she supports me in that. She does not think I will go to hell even if I don't repent. I was making some end of life arrangements and I had to know how she felt about this. We had already gone through some real life stuff together so I felt I could trust her to be honest.

 

Back to Summer 2006. I'd come up empty. I was looking at Paganism. Meeting with a person. Reading a few books. It turned out not to be right for me. I'd lost my family. Just prior to that, an email friend I'd found on yet another forum, the pastor kind but heretical as all get-out, intuited that I was having an abnormal amount of problems so he googled exMennonite and located a person connected with the Main Blog of this site. From there I discovered these forums and I was home free!

 

Under "any Gods?" I just put down "Who knows--who cares?" I knew there was such a thing as agnosticism but I didn't have the energy to research it. I knew there was such a thing as atheism but I didn't want to commit to any statements about god. I just didn't want to bother about the god question. I was exhausted. I felt at home on exC because no one asked anything of me--no creeds to measure up to, no nothing. But I did get to blast religion. Oh glory! I got to blast religion! Where to start wasn't even a big problem, not with the optometrist discharging me and family turning cold on me.

 

I sort of feel like I hijacked this thread. I also feel like I'm with a pastorly person, Hans, if your nature is to be a pastor and this is your "church," maybe this isn't really a hijack. That's what I'm hoping. It just really got to me all the crap your family has been through. Here's something I'd meant to mention early on in this post. On the "Lost Swede" thread you said you moved to the US in 1996. So that terrible accident happened when you were still new to the country. What an awful introduction! I was of the impression you've been out of Sweden so long you barely remember the language, such as maybe coming across the ocean as a child with your parents. I guess I misunderstood something, seeing how you can write and read it.

[Ouroboros]

I was never diagnosed with anything for my heart, but I did feel chestpain now and then and I just knew a had it comming. It was mostly stress, and not necessarily religion that caused it, but I could not figure out how God could not do just anything, something small, to make sure that at least I could rest assured that my son was taken care off. After all, my trust that God would take care of my family was shattered. He had proven himself that he could give my family a lot of pain, just for whatever unexplained reasons, so who else were there to make sure my family was safe but me? And if I were heading for a serious situation too, then God didn't care if I tried to help my family, but he rather enjoyed seeing me struggle to keep us alive.

 

And Ruby, no, you didn't hijack the thread, it was interesting to see your experience too. Me "pastor" for this "church"... somehow I see Antlerman more of the pastor type than me!

[R. S. Martin]

I was never diagnosed with anything for my heart, but I did feel chestpain now and then and I just knew a had it comming. It was mostly stress, and not necessarily religion that caused it,

 

What I meant was the stress of holding back the natural human desire to get in there and do what a father would do to help his son survive. And the holding back was all due to having to trust God because religion wouldn't allow you to rush ahead of god. That was the line of my thinking but maybe that wasn't an issue for you. Also, for me I am finding it took enormous amounts of energy (stress) to relate to an imperceptible god. Again, I don't know if that plays into the situation for others. It's just an idea I threw out there because you mentioned health and it seems the stress level in your life has been extreme. And I just read in that other thread that you were still very new in the country when the accident occurred. That means you've had nothing but high levels of stress for a very long time.

 

So my thought was that, contrary to the claims of Christianity, ridding yourself of religion may have actually lowered the stress level. That's what I would like to "prove" and I don't have the proper "tools" at my disposal to prove or disprove anything.

 

And Ruby, no, you didn't hijack the thread, it was interesting to see your experience too. Me "pastor" for this "church"... somehow I see Antlerman more of the pastor type than me!

 

I thought you said you wanted to go into the ministry. Or is there a difference between pastor and minister? There are so many different titles for the different denominations that I get confused.

[Ouroboros]

What I meant was the stress of holding back the natural human desire to get in there and do what a father would do to help his son survive. And the holding back was all due to having to trust God because religion wouldn't allow you to rush ahead of god. That was the line of my thinking but maybe that wasn't an issue for you. Also, for me I am finding it took enormous amounts of energy (stress) to relate to an imperceptible god. Again, I don't know if that plays into the situation for others. It's just an idea I threw out there because you mentioned health and it seems the stress level in your life has been extreme. And I just read in that other thread that you were still very new in the country when the accident occurred. That means you've had nothing but high levels of stress for a very long time.

 

So my thought was that, contrary to the claims of Christianity, ridding yourself of religion may have actually lowered the stress level. That's what I would like to "prove" and I don't have the proper "tools" at my disposal to prove or disprove anything.

Actually I think you got something there. I do feel less stressed, even in difficult situations today. Maybe because I was frustrated that God didn't hear my prayers and did do anything to change my situation, or even just give me a hint to what I was supposed to do. Praying was like talking to a dead fish. So yeah, I think you might be right. Religion, especially the extreme fundamentalist version, can cause more stress on a person and I can think of many issues in daily life where it would.

 

And Ruby, no, you didn't hijack the thread, it was interesting to see your experience too. Me "pastor" for this "church"... somehow I see Antlerman more of the pastor type than me!

 

I thought you said you wanted to go into the ministry. Or is there a difference between pastor and minister? There are so many different titles for the different denominations that I get confused.

I wanted to in my Christian days, and my promise was that if God heal my son I would, since then I would know there is a God that would do miracles. But my response was more of that it sounded like you made to a "pastor" for this "church" (this website), and I'm far from anything like that.

 

Pastor, minister, reverend, preacher, heck I don't know which is what...

[R. S. Martin]

Praying was like talking to a dead fish.

 

Talking to a dead fish is not the most stress-relieving activity one might choose, in my opinion. I've found myself talking to a live bird in a tree that seemed to be singing or talking to me or scolding me. But a dead fish. That would take major amounts of energy and imagination. I believe the unconscious mind (as well as the conscious) has a reason for the metaphors it chooses. And it seems to me that one speaks volumes.

 

By turning its back.

 

By looking the other way.

By not caring.

By

 

being

 

dead

 

.

[Jubilant]

I honestly, since knowing about this, had been hoping with every ounce of my being that you're family would receive that miracle. I know, how silly of me, but I couldn't help it.

 

Is your son feeling better now? You had wrote that he was sick?

[Ouroboros]

Sorry, I should have given you an update. He got an infection, and we were afraid it could have been related to his kidney (the only one left), but the kidney is fine. So he's on antibiotics to clear up the infection and he'll be fine, praise Nahweh for real medicine.

[Vigile]

Great news Hans.

[SWIM]

Sorry, I should have given you an update. He got an infection, and we were afraid it could have been related to his kidney (the only one left), but the kidney is fine. So he's on antibiotics to clear up the infection and he'll be fine, praise Nahweh for real medicine.

 

After reading lots of your posts about this Hans, I must say the Lawrd passed up a "really" great op to get a whole bunch of new followers. Think about it, not only all the doctors, the people in here, but how about all the silent readers? This is a popular site, forums tend to have more "readers" then "posters" historically... Plus I am sure it would have even made to to TV, possibly headline news.

 

Why would gawd not through you a bone when the side effect would have been so favorable for him? Just think of all the peeps that would have been "saved" because of it...

 

No, OTOH if you go to a Burger King church, and pray to the cashier/priest for a whopper, as long as your Tith is of the correct amount, your prayers will be answered!

 

Sorry Hans, couldn't resist an op to plug my BK religion...

 

Anyhow, miracle or not, I sincerely hope your boy does get better and has an improved quality of life.

[Ouroboros]

Yup. Yahweh sure did miss an opportunity. The chance of his life. I guess, it's more important to keep as many unbelievers on track to Hell than to just do a silly little miracle of actually healing someone...

 

Did you see Graphicguy's video on youtube about BK and DQ?

[SWIM]

Did you see Graphicguy's video on youtube about BK and DQ?

 

Yes I did! lol It was priceless!

 

Made my day!

[Grandpa Harley]

For some treason I get notifications out of synch, so when I saw Vigile's 'Great News Hans' I wonder(sort of hoped) I was going to have to break it to my atheist other half that I was taking up the 'God' thing...

[2Bornot2B]

Hans,

 

I truly hope that your son has a better quality of life. You are a trooper. My heart goes out to you and your family. I read the post and the more I read the angrier I got. Now, I might get censored, but I have to say one thing: Fuck those Xtians who promised a miracle and Fuck their god.

[R. S. Martin]

Hans,

 

I truly hope that your son has a better quality of life. You are a trooper. My heart goes out to you and your family. I read the post and the more I read the angrier I got. Now, I might get censored, but I have to say one thing: Fuck those Xtians who promised a miracle and Fuck their god.

 

Unless your post has already been censored, I see nothing in it that Hans or any other mod would censor (read: that they don't say themselves). That's what this place is for so far as I can figure out to--curse god and LIVE!