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Goodbye Jesus

African-americans Who Don't Believe Anymore


oladotun

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I would like to hear from any African-American or black persons who have gone through the experience of losing their Christian faith. It is almost utter taboo in the black community to even mention that you are having problems with your faith, because of the inherent assumption that black people are very close to God. But after years of struggling and trying to get Christianity to work for me, I have given up on it. I can rarely talk about faith with family without literally getting “hot†inside because they just don’t get it, it’s all hogwash..I give details of my de-conversion testimony in the testimonial section. I would like to hear from other blacks who may have had a similar experience and how you are dealing with family and friends who think you are on some kind of non-righteous venture.

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I'm sorry to sidetrack a little, I'm caucasian (hell, what else do you expect a Swede to be :) ), but there's something I never could understand, which is how come the african-american community is so deep-fried (sorry, couldn't help the pun) into the Christian religion? I mean, if you look back in history, that is really not part of your heritage, but rather black people (if you're okay with me using that term) should despise it and reject Christianity to its fullest. I can understand the white Europeans being dipped in the religious ideas, but I can't understand why black people are so hell-bent on it? When did it become an "inherent assumption that black people are very close to God" as you said? (Again, sorry for side-tracking, but I'm so curious.)

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I can understand the white Europeans being dipped in the religious ideas, but I can't understand why black people are so hell-bent on it? When did it become an "inherent assumption that black people are very close to God" as you said? (Again, sorry for side-tracking, but I'm so curious.)

 

I've thought that too, especially considering the many rules and regulations on slave ownership and treatment.

 

It is also my understanding that Africa was very much Muslim in the areas where slaves were taken from, and were subsequently forced to convert to xtianity by their masters in the Americas. This is used I believe to convert many black people to Islam in an effort to get back to their African roots.

 

I too, am white, Estonian and German is most of my heritage. But ever since I deconverted the thoughts of xtianity in the African American community has confused me.

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I'm sorry to sidetrack a little, I'm caucasian (hell, what else do you expect a Swede to be :) ), but there's something I never could understand, which is how come the african-american community is so deep-fried (sorry, couldn't help the pun) into the Christian religion? I mean, if you look back in history, that is really not part of your heritage, but rather black people (if you're okay with me using that term) should despise it and reject Christianity to its fullest. I can understand the white Europeans being dipped in the religious ideas, but I can't understand why black people are so hell-bent on it? When did it become an "inherent assumption that black people are very close to God" as you said? (Again, sorry for side-tracking, but I'm so curious.)

 

This is really a valid question. Especially since Slaveowners and segregationists used the Bible to not only sanction slavery, but also cause anyone who fought for real freedom to be highly criticized as a heretic. But for some reason, blacks have chosen to embrace religion (specifically Christianity) using what is known as a "liberaration theology" which is supposed to be a "softer" and less dogmatic kind of Christianity. But it is all hogwash and all legalistic. It has been the genuis or insidious nature of Western cultures to indoctrinate Africans with this nonsense. Not to say that I would rather embrace the Juju or witchcraft types of religions that are common in some parts of Africa (I lived there for over 15 years), but I never understood why Christianity has become so popular in black culture...

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I can understand the white Europeans being dipped in the religious ideas, but I can't understand why black people are so hell-bent on it? When did it become an "inherent assumption that black people are very close to God" as you said? (Again, sorry for side-tracking, but I'm so curious.)

 

I've thought that too, especially considering the many rules and regulations on slave ownership and treatment.

 

It is also my understanding that Africa was very much Muslim in the areas where slaves were taken from, and were subsequently forced to convert to xtianity by their masters in the Americas. This is used I believe to convert many black people to Islam in an effort to get back to their African roots.

 

I too, am white, Estonian and German is most of my heritage. But ever since I deconverted the thoughts of xtianity in the African American community has confused me.

 

It is confusing, and why some blacks would trade one form of religious fundamentalism (Christianity) for another (orthodox Islam or the Nation of Islam) is even more confusing to me. Granted, the nation of Islam does do some empowering things in the black community, but it is a form of religious fundamentalism as demonstrated in the life of Malcolm X, in fact it was his questioning of the authoritarianism of his religion that eventually lead to his assasination. This is why all religion is insiduous. Or as Christipher Hitches says "Religion poisons everything".

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Here's what I think:

 

The blacks replaced the slavery under the whites, to a slavery under the religion of the whites.

 

Not until they have their own philosophical awakening will they be truly free.

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It is confusing, and why some blacks would trade one form of religious fundamentalism (Christianity) for another (orthodox Islam or the Nation of Islam) is even more confusing to me. Granted, the nation of Islam does do some empowering things in the black community, but it is a form of religious fundamentalism as demonstrated in the life of Malcolm X, in fact it was his questioning of the authoritarianism of his religion that eventually lead to his assasination. This is why all religion is insiduous. Or as Christipher Hitches says "Religion poisons everything".

 

Humankind is contradictory by nature, which is why I think humankind invented religion to start with. Humankind needed (and still needs) to a great degree a perfect standard to ascribe to. So, some hero-ideal archetype is created and supposedly lives to spread Good News about how we are supposed to live our lives and to hold us accountable after we die. The system he creates is perfect, therefore must not be questioned by the less-than perfect human mind.

 

Those are my two cents.

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I mean, if you look back in history, that is really not part of your heritage, but rather black people (if you're okay with me using that term) should despise it and reject Christianity to its fullest

 

As should S American indians, yet they are all Catholic. As should Europeans who where force fed xianity via the Romans. As should Africans who were christianized by missionaries so that they would become good uncle Tom colonials.

 

I gotta say, I really respect the American indians, the Vietnamese, the Japanese etc... who rejected outright forced missions.

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Interesting subject. I am caucasian, but my ex wife is african american and I have biracial children. She is an extreme end, speaking in tongues, 'holy spirit' filled, 'praise jesus!' all over the place kind of christian. I grew up in the so-called 'black church' simply because I grew up in a predominantly African American community. The so-called 'black church' is really no different than any other, of any denom. We praised God a bit more vocally in my church life, but in the end, the hypocrisy was just as thick there as in any other church. With that, I see utterly no difference in the BS my still believing christian associates give me than I get from those even within the white side of my family. Said in different ways many times, but still the same vociferousness and rejection. I have had the chance in life to gain a certain perspective that when it comes down to it, my reaction is that all of them are full of shit, black, white et al, lol. I've kinda been bumped to the side and lost close ties/been cut off from most of them and the effect feels no different in either case. Having been so steeped in black culture all my life, it becomes ironic that in the end I am rejected and an outsider from the perspective of both, white and black. My point being in all this, is that just remember, when you're only dealing with those of your own ethnic background, you get that 1 particular brand of reaction to your deconversion. When ya dealing with both, you get both barrels, believe that. All the old horseshit from the white ones I've been around and who have acted as though my interracial life is OK, their true inner feelings have been permitted to pour forth because of my deconversion; so now all the racial shit goes along with it i.e.-their true disapproval of it, then somewhat pretty much the same from the other side. So I'm a sorry, unsaved, unbelieving bastard child to both! Whoopee! Lol. It has hurt quite a bit at times, and as is my usual way, I have tended to express it by telling people to fuck off(would even do that in church when I still went). The issue I am soon to be faced with now, is should my children end up living with me, the real trouble I am going to go through with their phony ass mother and her fam, because apparently from all I am hearing from them and often now, it must be my 'whiteness' that caused me to step away from the church and their beliefs. I'd still go back to my old church, but for one reason only...the women dress better, heheh, I know, I'm terrible. I know a great number of African Americans who don't go to church at all, don't 'praise Jesus!' all the time etc though if pressed, they will surely claim belief. But then again, whites are the same damn way, so, as I say, there's not as much differences as many assume. Especially those who haven't actually lived it.

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I never understood this myself. My grandparents are so-called spirit filled divas of the religion and has as a consequence all of the sheep(family) that they too can have a closer walk with heyzeus. Now, excuse me for using my brain and officially becoming the black sheep of the family, literally. Peace

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Not only am I black, I'm also from the Caribbean, a double whammy when it comes to the Christian faith. The region is still saturated with the Christian faith. In fact, I was in Jamaica last week (after a 5 year hiatus) and was quickly reminded how much (I'm from the Virgin Islands, however).

 

Anyway, one of the most telling things to me is that if you do research on European nations that once dominated the world, or at least this side of it , you realize that many of them are straying away from Christianity as something they take seriously. It's treated as an old relic that one pays lip service to, an occasional trip to church for special occasions an that's about it. However, take a look at the peoples they colonized/enslaved and they are still in the grips of Christian superstition. Take a look at Mexico. Less than one percent of the population holds an atheistic/agnostic belief, but yet in Spain, its former colonizer, some 24% holds to a lack of belief in a deity or at least the one parading around the Bible.

 

As for my family, my mom was initially stunned, but frankly, nothing about me changed. I was not the type who had this raging desire to get buck wild. She had nothing to point to as proof that Satan had taken control of my life so life with her continues as it always has. We have no issues.

 

Black folks have been an oppressed group. The Christian "pie in the sky" message holds great appeal to any such people. For hundreds of years the oppressor sold the idea, via the bible, that one could and should endure their earthly lot because there was a better life over on the the side. How they were to sell that crock of shit is beyond me, but it worked. The centuries of indoctrination was clearly effective and enduring. We, for the most part, are still given the shitty end of he stick so believing in hope that all will be made even in the sweet by and by appears to make sense. I often wonder if all black people stopped believing bullshit what would t do for us as a people on how we approach THIS life?

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The longer I'm out of xianity the more insane it seems that it's so pervasive in the black community. I know several people that are into "black consciousness" and are xtians...to me that's an oxymoron!

 

Personally I find it I hard to be an ex-c in the black community because most people just automatically assume that you are a believer. I have not come out to a lot of people, but most of my family and a few friends know. Although after recent experiences over the holidays the list of friends who know and will remain friends is growing smaller. It's a hassle being one of a few non-believers in the crowd - most of the time I just smile and say nothing when the religion issue is raised. But it burns me up inside and I want to scream that we as a people have bought into this crap so deeply!! It's getting to the point where I don't think I can hide much longer...

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The longer I'm out of xianity the more insane it seems that it's so pervasive in the black community. I know several people that are into "black consciousness" and are xtians...to me that's an oxymoron!

 

Personally I find it I hard to be an ex-c in the black community because most people just automatically assume that you are a believer. I have not come out to a lot of people, but most of my family and a few friends know. Although after recent experiences over the holidays the list of friends who know and will remain friends is growing smaller. It's a hassle being one of a few non-believers in the crowd - most of the time I just smile and say nothing when the religion issue is raised. But it burns me up inside and I want to scream that we as a people have bought into this crap so deeply!! It's getting to the point where I don't think I can hide much longer...

 

 

Hi Miche.

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I've never understood this either. I don't think that ANYBODY has good reason to buy into this caustic religion, but African Americans seem to have even less cause: clearly the religion used as justification for the atrocities of slavery and imposed on slaves, and then used to justify a shameful legacy of bigotry is NOT a religion of love as NOT a religion of decency and is NOT a moral religion. It just doesn't seem logical to embrace such a religion.

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I'm Samoan and living in Samoa and can relate to the "black" experience with religion, though I am sure its the same for anyone against the majority.

 

Well, if only science had the lucky break religion got... maybe lessons on logic, physics, philosophy and biology.. etc etc could've used a threatening disclaimer in that who ever doesn't understand (ahem* believe) them will be time transported back to the dinosaur age to duel raptors and T-Rexs.... Time machines in secret government laboratories underground where you will teleport instantly when you think evolution is "just a theory".

 

And from that, we can all get on our knees and pray to Science everyday :vent:

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I'm Samoan and living in Samoa and can relate to the "black" experience with religion, though I am sure its the same for anyone against the majority.

 

Well, if only science had the lucky break religion got... maybe lessons on logic, physics, philosophy and biology.. etc etc could've used a threatening disclaimer in that who ever doesn't understand (ahem* believe) them will be time transported back to the dinosaur age to duel raptors and T-Rexs.... Time machines in secret government laboratories underground where you will teleport instantly when you think evolution is "just a theory".

 

And from that, we can all get on our knees and pray to Science everyday :vent:

 

 

Generally when I have conversations with Christians off a bulletin board, a place where they can just disappear or keep silent on tough questions, I sometimes can corner them and bring them to the retarded conclusions their belief will bring them to. One Jamaican girl told me that black people should be thankful for slavery because that is how god brought us to the knowledge of the truth. WTF??? I just told her to stop for a minute and listen to herself. Her reply (paraphrasing)? "Well I know it sounds harsh, but we cannot comprehend the ways of god and he must have had a reason for carrying it about that way and we should not question." Talk about compounding the crime.

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Interesting subject. I am caucasian, but my ex wife is african american and I have biracial children. She is an extreme end, speaking in tongues, 'holy spirit' filled, 'praise jesus!' all over the place kind of christian. I grew up in the so-called 'black church' simply because I grew up in a predominantly African American community. The so-called 'black church' is really no different than any other, of any denom. We praised God a bit more vocally in my church life, but in the end, the hypocrisy was just as thick there as in any other church. With that, I see utterly no difference in the BS my still believing christian associates give me than I get from those even within the white side of my family.

 

I have worshipped in black churches and white churches (I am a black male) durig my fundie days and I see your point exactly. The worship experience may be different and may be more "soulful" in the black church, but it all comes down to the same hogwash, authoritarianism - obey God, submit to authority (even if the autority figure is abusive), stay in line, or face wrath. and if you ever dare to even suggest that there may be hypocrisy in the church, you will be quickly labelled a heretic or person with a rebellious or 'Jezebel" spirit...I ended up being sick to my stomach with all thet nonsense and had to get out of there.

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I must wonder if xianity would have disappeared altogether if not for the aggressive cultural imperialism that Euros engaged in for so long. Xians tend to think that the widespread nature of their religion points to its divine origins, not the fact that it was force-fed to conquered cultures.

 

For that matter I've always wondered why a decidedly middle-eastern religion was so damm popular in Europe, even with the later sanction of the Roman Empire (I much preferred Thor). Regardless xianity became an adopted part of Euro culture and thinking, and possibly played a large part in the atrocities inflicted on the "lesser" peoples that various Euro nations dominated at one time or another. If the Aztecs had been more advanced we would all probably be ex-quetzocoatlians wondering why white people love blood sacrifice so much.

 

Im getting off my point but what I guess Im trying to say, and you all probably know this already, xianity and any of its success are a result of historical chance and cultural assimilation. Not some kind of philosophical or moral superiority.

 

And since were all talking about our ethinc origins, Im Scottish/German 3rd generation. About as White Anglo Saxon as they come. :HaHa:

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I was watching CNN this morning and two African-American church pastors were interviewed about the political leanings of their congregations. Both men were from South Carolina and the anchor wanted to know likely which candidates (Obama & Clinton, I think) would likely win their votes. After reading some of the above posts, there is a supremely poetic twist of fate going on here. Nobody here is likely ignorant of "American" history so most folks would likely chuckle at the reality that a historically persecuted minority would use Christianity to have their political voices heard. But, more pragmatically, it is more likely true that the opinions of churchgoers are more easily reached since churches have been traditional places of togetherness for African-Americans. Despite these ironies, this shows me that many people either don't believe in separation of church and state or that tectonic scrapings between both social behemoths are inexorable no matter what. For me, this issue is far from clear-cut.

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One of the things I've never 'got' with African-Americans is their buying into Islam. Over half of Christian slavers bought their slaves precaptured, either from the winner of some tribal war (blacks selling blacks), or Arabs (Islamics... many of whom were actually plundering [white] slaves from the West cost of Europe, for the internal Arabian trade, until the latter part of the first half of the 19th Century, but ignored as 'acceptable' by Chrisitan slaver governments. Black slaves were an important commodity, and pissing off your main supplier over a few Cornish people a year was just 'bad business')

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There's really a very simple explanation for it. Psychologists identified the phenomenon in 1973 as Stockholme syndrome.

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Being black and utterly godless for my entire life, I can definitely relate to this experience. My wife is a somewhat liberal but very devout Christian, and this has caused and continues to cause some real difficulties in our marriage. It's very nearly impossible to have any sort of normal social relationships with other couples and families within the black community without keeping one's atheism very low key. As someone mentioned earlier, everyone assumes that its a given that barring the odd Muslim, we are all Christian. I decided a long time ago that I would not hide the fact that I was an atheist(i.e. fake it), but that it wasn't worth being a prick about it at every opportunity either as I might have in younger days. If asked, or if it comes up in conversation, I am very direct about my lack of belief. If asked to lead a prayer, I respectfully decline, though I will hold hands while the rest of the group prays before a meal, or at a family gathering. I have a sneaking suspicion that disbelief among blacks is greater than we imagine, but cultural pressures are such that a sizeable minority resolve to go through the motions to avoid making waves. Christianity is a significant part of the glue of a community that still has a lot of motivations to maintain a certain level of cultural, political and social cohesion. I think it played a largely positive role through the civil rights era, for example. Lack of faith is perceived as a threat to that cohesion, not unlike inter-racial marriage, though probably to an even greater extent.

 

One of the things that irks me the most about Christians is their contempt for all other religions on the planet, with the possible exception of Judaism, which holds what I consider a sort of patronizing "mascot" status among Christians. And as much contempt as they have for all of the other world's religions, nothing matches the disrespect they feel for outright disbelief in mysticism of any kind. I find this bizarre. It's as though they consider it a slap in the face that in rejecting their particular brand of irrational belief we don’t have the decency to select another equally silly one, which must imply that we consider our thought processes to be superior. As an example, I pointed out to my wife recently how much more likely an evangelical is to attempt to witness to an avowed atheist, who they may assume is angry at God for example, whereas they are highly unlikely to bother the Hindu or Jew next door who is presumably equally likely to be destined for hell due to their misguided faith. Even in the current geopolitical climate, atheism is more feared than Islam among Christians in my opinion.

 

I am also from the Caribbean(born, not raised). The sort of ridiculous mysticism that even highly educated people there still hold onto even today is mind-boggling. I don't think we can blame Christianity for much of that, if any. I think it goes much further back. Christianity aside, I find African-Americans(at least middle class educated ones) to be less superstitious in the main than folks from the Caribbean.

 

My kids know I’m an atheist and always have. They do go to church with my blessing(pun intended), as do I. I do have very mixed feelings about this, and frequently feel guilty about it. I justify it on the basis that it’s a useful social and cultural experience for them. I take every opportunity to educate them about the true history of the bible and Christianity. I have also made sure they are educated about comparative religions, mythology and philosophy, so that they have a frame of reference for Christianity as opposed to the kind of insular ignorance that it thrives on. If they choose to believe(god forbid) it will be with eyes wide open, not due to blind indoctrination. I get pretty strong hints that my eldest, who is 14, does not believe but has not come right out and said so out of deference for her mother’s feelings. I can’t tell one way or another yet with my 12 year old.

 

But I’m rambling. My sincere apologies for this screed of a first post.

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I'm sorry to sidetrack a little, I'm caucasian (hell, what else do you expect a Swede to be :) ), but there's something I never could understand, which is how come the african-american community is so deep-fried (sorry, couldn't help the pun) into the Christian religion? I mean, if you look back in history, that is really not part of your heritage, but rather black people (if you're okay with me using that term) should despise it and reject Christianity to its fullest. I can understand the white Europeans being dipped in the religious ideas, but I can't understand why black people are so hell-bent on it? When did it become an "inherent assumption that black people are very close to God" as you said? (Again, sorry for side-tracking, but I'm so curious.)

 

Honestly, I don't see it that way. Over the years, I've gotten to know the ultra-militant type blacks who are also into Christianity. One thing that we agreed on is that the origins technically didn't start with whites (Europeans) but among people of color. It appears that the crap started once Christianity was "Europeanized". I rarely ever get into that because I don't want people to think that I am adding to the notion that whites always take the humanity out of things and create chaos. Of course all kinds of people have caused evil in the world, but I can't deny that the negative result of the "Europeanization" of Christianity it's something I ponder. :phew:

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Being black and utterly godless for my entire life, I can definitely relate to this experience. My wife is a somewhat liberal but very devout Christian, and this has caused and continues to cause some real difficulties in our marriage. It's very nearly impossible to have any sort of normal social relationships with other couples and families within the black community without keeping one's atheism very low key. As someone mentioned earlier, everyone assumes that its a given that barring the odd Muslim, we are all Christian. I decided a long time ago that I would not hide the fact that I was an atheist(i.e. fake it), but that it wasn't worth being a prick about it at every opportunity either as I might have in younger days. If asked, or if it comes up in conversation, I am very direct about my lack of belief. If asked to lead a prayer, I respectfully decline, though I will hold hands while the rest of the group prays before a meal, or at a family gathering. I have a sneaking suspicion that disbelief among blacks is greater than we imagine, but cultural pressures are such that a sizeable minority resolve to go through the motions to avoid making waves. Christianity is a significant part of the glue of a community that still has a lot of motivations to maintain a certain level of cultural, political and social cohesion. I think it played a largely positive role through the civil rights era, for example. Lack of faith is perceived as a threat to that cohesion, not unlike inter-racial marriage, though probably to an even greater extent.

 

One of the things that irks me the most about Christians is their contempt for all other religions on the planet, with the possible exception of Judaism, which holds what I consider a sort of patronizing "mascot" status among Christians. And as much contempt as they have for all of the other world's religions, nothing matches the disrespect they feel for outright disbelief in mysticism of any kind. I find this bizarre. It's as though they consider it a slap in the face that in rejecting their particular brand of irrational belief we don’t have the decency to select another equally silly one, which must imply that we consider our thought processes to be superior. As an example, I pointed out to my wife recently how much more likely an evangelical is to attempt to witness to an avowed atheist, who they may assume is angry at God for example, whereas they are highly unlikely to bother the Hindu or Jew next door who is presumably equally likely to be destined for hell due to their misguided faith. Even in the current geopolitical climate, atheism is more feared than Islam among Christians in my opinion.

 

I am also from the Caribbean(born, not raised). The sort of ridiculous mysticism that even highly educated people there still hold onto even today is mind-boggling. I don't think we can blame Christianity for much of that, if any. I think it goes much further back. Christianity aside, I find African-Americans(at least middle class educated ones) to be less superstitious in the main than folks from the Caribbean.

 

My kids know I’m an atheist and always have. They do go to church with my blessing(pun intended), as do I. I do have very mixed feelings about this, and frequently feel guilty about it. I justify it on the basis that it’s a useful social and cultural experience for them. I take every opportunity to educate them about the true history of the bible and Christianity. I have also made sure they are educated about comparative religions, mythology and philosophy, so that they have a frame of reference for Christianity as opposed to the kind of insular ignorance that it thrives on. If they choose to believe(god forbid) it will be with eyes wide open, not due to blind indoctrination. I get pretty strong hints that my eldest, who is 14, does not believe but has not come right out and said so out of deference for her mother’s feelings. I can’t tell one way or another yet with my 12 year old.

 

But I’m rambling. My sincere apologies for this screed of a first post.

 

The part in bold has been my suspicion also. I still speak to some of my old church friends and I can hear it in their voice. They just follow the routine because it is all they ever knew (well the ones who "grew up in church").

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Guest Reality Slayer
I'm sorry to sidetrack a little, I'm caucasian (hell, what else do you expect a Swede to be :) ), but there's something I never could understand, which is how come the african-american community is so deep-fried (sorry, couldn't help the pun) into the Christian religion? I mean, if you look back in history, that is really not part of your heritage, but rather black people (if you're okay with me using that term) should despise it and reject Christianity to its fullest. I can understand the white Europeans being dipped in the religious ideas, but I can't understand why black people are so hell-bent on it? When did it become an "inherent assumption that black people are very close to God" as you said? (Again, sorry for side-tracking, but I'm so curious.)

I don't see why it's easier to accept one community's acceptance and not another's. Using that argument, why is South America almost entirely Catholic? How many native South Americans, or even South American cultures and civilizations were slaughtered at the hands of Catholic explorers. Shouldn't they reject Christianity "to the fullest" based on this history? What about the great Norse mythologies? Slavery was a social institution designed to break the pride and spirit and replace it with something artificial, which happened to be Christianity. After all, the Bible's counsel on how to be a slave wasn't written for the benefit of Africans. The slaves in the Bible were Jews. Why don't you find Judaism puzzling? They were encouraged to love their slavemasters in return for everlasting life.

 

Christianity is not a European religion. Once the Roman Empire adopted this as a state religion, it forced it on all of the slaves and territories it held and conquered. African-Americans are not some sort of historical oddity in this regard. If you or your family did not have ancestral ties with the specific region of the Middle Ease surrounding the shores of the eastern Mediterranean Sea, then Christianity was, probably, at some point, forced at the point of the sword or at the behest of a slavemaster. So come down off your high horses there, Europeans. Your belief or ex-belief in the religion of your slavemasters may not be a part of your recent past, but it is a part of your past as well. It shouldn't be that hard to understand!

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