A Study Guide For Mulls

[1oddmanout]

2Pe 1:5-8 ESV

(5) For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,

(6) and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,

(7) and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

(8) For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Now I do believe in evangelism, unashamedly. And of course, at all times, I want to live in a way that could reflect Christ, and of course I'm going to defend what I believe.

 

Ah, but that’s the rub, isn’t it – what do you believe, why do you believe, do you already have all the information possible to know what you’re defending?

 

One reason, I think, that ex-Xians dislike ‘evangelists’ coming to this site to preach, is, “what arrogance!†Very few ‘evangelists’ have shown the maturity and amount of study commensurate to the usual denizens here; very few have their own ideas but spout out the last comment their preacher has said. I understand, and acknowledge that the usual hard-working Xian doesn’t have the time to study independently (and yes, bravely). But a self-described student?

 

Naw, you don’t have any excuse; even if you’re a working student, college and prison are similar – both offer an opportunity to study. I worked 6 hours per day, teaching GED; went to church twice per week; exercised an hour per day; didn’t have the luxury of deciding when I could eat, but had to go to chow hall at certain times (or one didn’t eat); lights out at a certain time, so couldn’t read all through the night. Yet, I dedicated my spare time to finding the roots and causes of the angrily disputed variations in the Faith; opening my mind to all possibilities (hey, and learned how to play Bridge, D&D, and edit a newspaper); and came to a few conclusions.

 

I now offer you the chance and dare to see where I came from – then, preach to me. Below are the best recommendations for study I have found; read all of them in one year. My criteria were balanced, even-handed and rational study by authors of the questions at hand, untainted by pre-conceived theological standings. I read SO many books, but these remain the ones I most recommend as starters.

 

 

The beginning study:

Go to your local PC-USA church and ask for a copy of the Book of Confessions (oh, but careful; they’re extremely liberal-even admit GAYS). Within it, you’ll find the various statements-of-faith that the Church has developed during the centuries. Of particular import to this study is the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms. Each sentence and chapter has references to the Scripture verses that back what the statement is saying. I doubt that you’ll find anything that you would strongly disagree with, no matter your sect, but I don’t doubt that you will be enlightened and invigorated. Use the Bibles below to follow along the references while reading the Confession and Catechisms.

 

The Bibles:

From your friendly ChristianBook Distributors (always the lowest prices and great selection)

Essential Evangelical Parallel Bible

For multiple translations

The Companion Bible

OH!!! E.W. Bullinger’s deep study and clarity of understanding!!! (Am I gushing enough?)

Interlinear Greek-English New Testament – George Ricker Berry

Great interlinear with the best concise lexicon in the back

 

I delved deeply into the original languages, without trying to learn to write or speak them, but with a goal of finding which old or current English translation most accurately reflect the tense, syntax, and meaning of the “original languages†(ignoring the argument that we do NOT have any copies of original languages). “Delving†meant reading three Bibles per year cover-to-cover, all spread out in front of me on my cot with other language tools and reference books, colored pencils in hand for marking and coding.

 

My conclusions: the KJV is the most inaccurate, the ESV is the most accurate in readable English, the NLT (non-SE version) accurately reflects the meaning of the verses (compare Jeremiah 1.12)

 

Jer 1:12

 

(ESV) Then the LORD said to me, "You have seen well, for I am watching over my word to perform it."

 

(KJVA) Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it.

 

(YLT) And Jehovah saith unto me, `Thou hast well seen: for I am watching over My word to do it.'

 

(NLT) And the Lord said, "That's right, and it means that I am watching, and I will surely carry out my threats of punishment."

 

A lot of sermons use this verse to state that YHWH will keep his Bible true and strong, yet the NLT accurately puts the translation into the context of the story. What punishment? The destruction of Jerusalem, foretold in the later verses and chapters.

 

Try Proverbs 1:31

Pro 1:31

 

(ESV) therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices.

 

(KJVA) Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

 

(YLT) And they eat of the fruit of their way, And from their own counsels they are filled.

 

(NLT) That is why they must eat the bitter fruit of living their own way. They must experience the full terror of the path they have chosen.

 

Boy, you better believe that an old convict hears and understands that verse!

 

Once done with that study, you say that you’re evangelical? Then read, also from CBD, Essentials of Evangelical Theology–Bloesch to find out. Bloesch brings a thorough study of all branches of the Xian tree to develop a clear understanding of what the term really means. And while you’re at it, Learning Theology with the Early Church Fathers – Hall will give you historical insight about how some of the most important themes of Xianity developed, and how some concepts HAVE be agreed to, or you aren’t Christian.

 

 

For light reading, Baxter’s A Christian Directory, copies available from SWRB books (in 4 volumes). Such wonderful and clear guidelines for warm and heartful Xian living!

 

Once done with reading Bloesch, a few really deep and sometimes hard-to-read books (especially Pink; wondrous thought, but each paragraph needs to be read thrice).

 

Knowing God – J.I. Packer

Sovereignty of God – Pink

Calvin’s Institutes – McNeil’s translation-great cross-references.

 

Read the above references volumes, and then tell me what you believe, what you are, what you stand for. I’d surely like to know your experience. Also, for an experience, locate a local Greek Orthodox Church, go for 6 weeks of services (may the beauty of Heaven consume you). I guarantee that you have never been in a service like that.

 

I have a year-long study guide that I developed, where you can read the Bible cover-to-cover in one year, and IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER. The first few books are pretty much in sync, but beginning with the histories, the Psalms, and the Prophecies, I can place and interweave each verse in the specific time period they reference. This would be a great time to also read the commentary in the six-volume set The Westminster Annotations and Commentary on the Whole Bible, also available from SWRB.

 

 

RubySera asked me how I can say belief is a choice; I can state that, after careful study and analysis, I can come to certain conclusions about the Xian faith, and believe the conclusions represent the best understanding of the faith, yet not believe it’s true or real; purely a mental exercise. If it’s okay with you, may the above study strengthen your belief-or not. See ya in a year!

[mulls]

Wow.

 

I have to say, I would love to take you up on all of those recommendations.

 

I have a decent head start. I do use the ESV for personal study, with a KJV nearby for comparison. I use e-sword for quick comparisons of all major bibles.

 

I've read through Knowing God by Packer and the Sovereignty of God by Pink. Pink was a hard read, I did go through it twice. Didn't like it very much. I hope to get to the Institutes sometime this year.

 

I've browsed through the Westminster Catechism but never studied it in-depth.

 

RubySera asked me how I can say belief is a choice; I can state that, after careful study and analysis, I can come to certain conclusions about the Xian faith, and believe the conclusions represent the best understanding of the faith, yet not believe it’s true or real; purely a mental exercise. If it’s okay with you, may the above study strengthen your belief-or not. See ya in a year!

 

That's very fair. I think that's all that can be asked of us. I happen to fall on the other side of the coin....I believe it's true and real.

[mulls]

It's obvious to lean towards reformed/calvinistic theology in your studies (I'm beginning to as well). May I ask why?

[1oddmanout]

Very good – I can see from your testimony that you ARE growing and keeping your mind open; so many Pentecostal, Word of Faith, even Baptist refuse to look deeper into the history of your Faith. And that’s where I have you started, into a history, starting now, going backwards, and returning. I could have made so many recommendations (and trust me, the Early Church Fathers and the current Orthodox Church is FAR from Reformed), but chose those specifically (Calvin may be a bit much-there’s some great synopses of his works available). I want you to KNOW what and why you believe, and I’m confident that in a year, you’ll be embarrassed that you spoke so resolutely recently.

 

Why Reformed?; because that precisely IS the history of the Protestant sect, and Bloesch’s book gives you concise lessons in the development of Evangelical concepts. A case could be made that everything since has the Westminster Standards as either a base or a foil, a pro- or a foe. If not Protestant, then one is Orthodox (I include the Roman Church as a member of the Orthodox family and am confident that the Great Schism will be healed).

 

Why Reformed? After reading and understanding the concept of the Sovereignty of God (not the titles of the books), where else can you turn?

 

Why the Westminster Standards? The copy I asked you to get has a great verse-reference system, and focused reading of the Scriptures is helpful, and the topics clear your mind from the crazier aspects of the cult.

 

Oh, I delved deeply into the Hagin/Copeland/4 Square Gospel experience (even been to snake-handling churches), read Dake’s Bible through and through, still have my well-marked copy of the Spirit-Filled Bible, spoke in tongues, and have a great anecdote of spirit-filled healing of a friend’s 5-yr-old daughter (“Oh, but since you know of a miracle-healing, why don’t you believe?†“Because I didn’t see the X-rays, I didn’t see the wound on the back, and just maybe, instead of the prayer circle on the yard calling on the Spirit, maybe it was our collective consciousness manipulating the molecules—one’s as believable as the other").

 

I’m interested in your impressions of the study, and hope you do read the recommendations-I didn’t make them lightly (and attend an Orthodox Church for a while ). I’d like to see your answers in this thread, but PM or IM me if you wish.

[mulls]

Oh, and if I ever get some money, I'm looking to invest in this:

 

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Boo...mp;view=details

[Telesmith]

You can find the early church fathers online here: http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html , as well as other places on the web.

 

Prepare yourself for the ECF. They were anything but reformed and anything but protestant.

 

Don't pass up the opportunity to dig up some info on the orthodox churches!!

[1oddmanout]

Oh, and if I ever get some money, I'm looking to invest in this:

 

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Boo...mp;view=details

Ain't that available on the e-sword program? (or, I may have it on a cheap program from a computer store). Really a boring read, but this is a better review-hey, the Brethren prefer to stay with the Bible as primary, right?

 

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Boo...=21&Go.y=12

[mulls]

Right.

 

the Brethren (as in plymouth brethren/brethren assemblies) as a whole are a weird group, I've learned. Ugly history with a lot of splits.

 

But the autonomy of the local church is emphasized, so if you find a good, solid, relatively laid-back group (as I have), you can have the best church experience as there is. I know a lot of solid assemblies, and a few very strict ones.

[mulls]

They are also historically against taking any kind of "name" unto themselves, which is why they don't regard themselves as a denomination. They won't even put a name on theology, like Reformed or Arminian. But practically they're right in the middle, bible based evangelical, which I like. But for the most part I keep my reformed leanings to myself.

[Alice]

1oddmanout,

 

a reading list from my childhood - my Father would read us Calvin's institutes over breakfast.

 

J.I.Packer was a dinner guest before he defected to the USA.

 

I'm also interested in your recommended reading list also and your confidence that reading it would make Mulls rethink his position, can you elaborate?

[1oddmanout]

1oddmanout,

 

a reading list from my childhood - my Father would read us Calvin's institutes over breakfast.

 

J.I.Packer was a dinner guest before he defected to the USA.

 

re: the reading list: I don't know whether to say Wow! or Eeeyyyeeewwwwww . You must have had a amazing childhood, and with JI Packer as a dinner guest? I am humbled (more that the occurrance could have been assumed as ordinary-such unimaginable events for an old hillbilly to imagine).

 

You ask a good question about my confidence - I don't want to spoil it for mulls, or influence his learnings; just that most of the questions asked him in the other thread could have been answered with Xian confidence, no Rosanne RosannaDanna statements like, "never mind". I may start a thread quoting the questions asked and giving answers (always with the qualifier, just because I cite the Bible and use the concept God, the Trinity, etc. doesn't state that I believe them real ad truth.)

 

I apologize, your question deserves a sincere answer, but I must prepare for group.

[Alice]

1oddmanout,

 

a reading list from my childhood - my Father would read us Calvin's institutes over breakfast.

 

J.I.Packer was a dinner guest before he defected to the USA.

 

re: the reading list: I don't know whether to say Wow! or Eeeyyyeeewwwwww . You must have had a amazing childhood, and with JI Packer as a dinner guest? I am humbled (more that the occurrance could have been assumed as ordinary-such unimaginable events for an old hillbilly to imagine).

 

You ask a good question about my confidence - I don't want to spoil it for mulls, or influence his learnings; just that most of the questions asked him in the other thread could have been answered with Xian confidence, no Rosanne RosannaDanna statements like, "never mind". I may start a thread quoting the questions asked and giving answers (always with the qualifier, just because I cite the Bible and use the concept God, the Trinity, etc. doesn't state that I believe them real ad truth.)

 

I apologize, your question deserves a sincere answer, but I must prepare for group.

 

We had even more mindboggling dinner guests although I'm not sure how well they were known outside the UK. David Samuel was one (author of 'Pope or Gospel') - and the other was Dr Ian Paisley - as in the friendly irish politican and churchman. I inherited half my Father's library when he died, including signed copies of books by Paisley and Packer and some very ancient old protestant books - the oldest of which dates from 1661 but these oddities aside I could probably furnish Mulls with most of the books on your list if it were not for the pond inbetween us!

[1oddmanout]

from mulls:

so if you find a good, solid, relatively laid-back group (as I have), you can have the best church experience as there is.

But for the most part I keep my reformed leanings to myself.

 

Sniff, sniff, what's that I smell?

I like this story: You've known a person for a while, kinda think alike, enjoy each other's company, then he comes up to you and says, "May I be frank?" My first response would be, "Why? Have you been less than honest with me up to this point?"

 

How can you have a 'good church experience' if you have to keep your thoughts to yourself? Who are you trying to have a relationship with - your social group or your Lord and Creator (using a Xian's language)? If just the former, get a dog or join a sports team; or is your Faith not so important to you as you are telling us.

 

You seem to be a true searcher for the latter - so how can you continue with hypocrisy? And I don't mean to flame you - get real and get serious.; which is why I put together this guide for you.

 

From Alice:

I inherited half my Father's library when he died, including signed copies of books by Paisley and Packer and some very ancient old protestant books - the oldest of which dates from 1661 but these oddities aside I could probably furnish Mulls with most of the books on your list if it were not for the pond inbetween us!

 

I'm almost salivating at the possibility to know what the old books are!!! SWRB photocopies a lot of 17th century books and rebinds them, and I have a few CD-ROMs that they sent me that include PDFs of a lot. I corresponded from prison with a retired minister from NY state, whose retirement plan was selling the old books that he had collected throughout the years - something like 6000! I dutifully purchased a few every month, to help support him -and to read one-offs that were out of print; Brethren, Methodist, Reformed, you name it. I SO love the concerted deep thinking, scholarship and study of the theologians of the 18th and 19th century, and would like to read more of Paisley.

 

I too could supply mulls with most of my recommendations if he would ask: my Companion Bible, the Institutes (already underlined and with a synopsis that I wrote of all the chapters) and my interlinear. I still seriously recommend the 2 volumes by Bloesch and the Westminster Standards to begin with.

 

(Oh gosh, my next post will be my 100th - will the label under my avatar change? Stay tuned . . )

[Alice]

I'm almost salivating at the possibility to know what the old books are!!! SWRB photocopies a lot of 17th century books and rebinds them, and I have a few CD-ROMs that they sent me that include PDFs of a lot. I corresponded from prison with a retired minister from NY state, whose retirement plan was selling the old books that he had collected throughout the years - something like 6000! I dutifully purchased a few every month, to help support him -and to read one-offs that were out of print; Brethren, Methodist, Reformed, you name it. I SO love the concerted deep thinking, scholarship and study of the theologians of the 18th and 19th century, and would like to read more of Paisley.

 

The oldest book I mentioned is likely to be of particular interest to an american who is interested in the puritans as it is an original copy, printed in 1661, of John Davenport's 'The saints anchor-hold in all storms and tempests'.

 

I really should get it professionally looked at as the cover is deteriorating badly.

 

Another one of the really old books is an annotated bible printed in 1664 - 'Pious Annotations Upon the Holy Bible Expounding the difficult places' by John Diodati, late Minister of the Gospel in Geneva. ...

[R. S. Martin]

Quite a bit Westminster and Calvinist theology is online at Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics. So similar was the Westminster Larger Catechism to the Old Order Mennonite sermons I heard every Sunday that I asked my professor what the chances are that the Anabaptists and Westminsterites shared ideas. He told me the ideas were floating all over Europe at the time, and that only the English Channel separated Westminster from the German Anabaptists. Calvinist Charles Hodge writing about 1870 occassionaly refers to the heretical Anabaptists. I was raised to believe that all things Calvinist were evil. All of this corresponds with whoever said in this thread (I think it was oddmanout) that everyone is either for or against Westminster. I am of Anabaptist descent. Thanks for a great thread.

[R. S. Martin]

from mulls:

so if you find a good, solid, relatively laid-back group (as I have), you can have the best church experience as there is.

But for the most part I keep my reformed leanings to myself.

 

Sniff, sniff, what's that I smell?

I like this story: You've known a person for a while, kinda think alike, enjoy each other's company, then he comes up to you and says, "May I be frank?" My first response would be, "Why? Have you been less than honest with me up to this point?"

 

How can you have a 'good church experience' if you have to keep your thoughts to yourself? Who are you trying to have a relationship with - your social group or your Lord and Creator (using a Xian's language)? If just the former, get a dog or join a sports team; or is your Faith not so important to you as you are telling us.

 

You seem to be a true searcher for the latter - so how can you continue with hypocrisy? And I don't mean to flame you - get real and get serious.; which is why I put together this guide for you.

 

Oddman, why do you have to ruin a good conversation with being too frank? What did being honest get you? Jail.

 

What did it get me? Excommunication.

 

The guy is only 24. It's right that he check things out before he make a commitment. He has to be somewhere in the meantime. Let him be in church if he's comfortable there. He's talking openly here. He's asking for a reading list and he's discussing theology. He's not asking vague and contradictory questions that I can see. I don't know about everybody else but it's not possible for some of us to share all our thoughts because new ones are growing as we speak. Saying everything we know and think would be a full-time job in and of itself. I did decades of thinking in the safety of my own head while still a member of the church. Only when I had done an exhaustive search did I let people know what I had been thinking. Wasn't safe earlier. I think your charge is unfair.

[1oddmanout]

From RubySera

The guy is only 24. It's right that he check things out before he make a commitment. He has to be somewhere in the meantime. Let him be in church if he's comfortable there. He's talking openly here. He's asking for a reading list and he's discussing theology. He's not asking vague and contradictory questions that I can see. I don't know about everybody else but it's not possible for some of us to share all our thoughts because new ones are growing as we speak. Saying everything we know and think would be a full-time job in and of itself. I did decades of thinking in the safety of my own head while still a member of the church. Only when I had done an exhaustive search did I let people know what I had been thinking. Wasn't safe earlier. I think your charge is unfair.

 

Point well taken - I just wish mulls would post as frequently. The responses from the members of this forum have been pretty sharply distrustful as to his veracity and sincerity - you included:

He's started another thread here. He gives himself away. He's not been lurking. He's asking for our favourite mentors as Christians and exChristians. Had he been lurking for an entire year as he claims he would not be asking these questions. He's lying through his teeth. That's the only way I can explain his questions in light of his claims.

 

I'd much rather hear, "This is what I believe at the moment, but am learning" rather than "This I know."

 

 

From Alice

The oldest book I mentioned is likely to be of particular interest to an american who is interested in the puritans as it is an original copy, printed in 1661, of John Davenport's 'The saints anchor-hold in all storms and tempests'.

 

I really should get it professionally looked at as the cover is deteriorating badly.

 

Another one of the really old books is an annotated bible printed in 1664 - 'Pious Annotations Upon the Holy Bible Expounding the difficult places' by John Diodati, late Minister of the Gospel in Geneva. ...

 

Davenport's book sounds great; of course get it restored. I know that the Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary has a large library of original Puritan books if you'd like a nice place to keep them for the future (although I'm sure there are quite a few good libraries in England). SWRB has Diodati's work photocopied and bound.

[R. S. Martin]

From RubySera

The guy is only 24. It's right that he check things out before he make a commitment. He has to be somewhere in the meantime. Let him be in church if he's comfortable there. He's talking openly here. He's asking for a reading list and he's discussing theology. He's not asking vague and contradictory questions that I can see. I don't know about everybody else but it's not possible for some of us to share all our thoughts because new ones are growing as we speak. Saying everything we know and think would be a full-time job in and of itself. I did decades of thinking in the safety of my own head while still a member of the church. Only when I had done an exhaustive search did I let people know what I had been thinking. Wasn't safe earlier. I think your charge is unfair.

 

Point well taken - I just wish mulls would post as frequently. The responses from the members of this forum have been pretty sharply distrustful as to his veracity and sincerity - you included:

He's started another thread here. He gives himself away. He's not been lurking. He's asking for our favourite mentors as Christians and exChristians. Had he been lurking for an entire year as he claims he would not be asking these questions. He's lying through his teeth. That's the only way I can explain his questions in light of his claims.

 

I'd much rather hear, "This is what I believe at the moment, but am learning" rather than "This I know."

 

I was aware as I was writing that I am taking a different position regarding mulls. I implicitly acknowledge this with the parts I have now bolded. The black parts refer to the present situation, and the green part to the earlier situation. I feel there is a significant enough difference to warrent different treatment.

 

I also get your point. There is a major difference between "This I know" and "This is what I believe at the moment, but am learning."

[mulls]

I like this conversation. Thanks for it.

 

1odd, I don't feel like I'm living with hypocrisy. I go to the church I go to for a number of good reasons. I love the people, and they love me. We celebrate the Lord's supper every week, committing an entire hour to simply remembering and reflecting on the person and work of Christ. This a deeply important conviction for me, no matter what theological camp I'm in, or end up in: that I keep Jesus the main thing, at all times.

 

The teaching/preaching is solid, exegetical, and challenging. No flash, no programs, not much to keep you entertained....just Jesus and people who are trying to grown and love Him more.

 

I do lean reformed, and the Brethren are historically not reformed (John Darby if often credited with starting the movment, and he was super-dispensationalist, which most reformed are not, save for a few like John MacArthur). But I've never bristled at anything I've heard from the pulpit or in bible study because it wasn't reformed enough. I don't really want to hear TULIP from the pulpit anyways; I can read about that stuff on my own. I want to be with people who love the Lord, love their families, love their neighbors, live by the bible and study it deeply. And that's what I have right now.

 

On a related note, as I continue to lean reformed, I'm finding more and more people are as well, on their own. There is definitely a resurgence of calvinistic theology, especially among my generation. It's emphasis is on God being the end of all things, God as sovereign over all things including people's salvation, and Christ-centered living. That's why I like calvinism, because to me, it emphasizes the right things.

 

I'm not really sure where I strictly stand on limited atonement, (I guess I'm an amyraldian right now) pre-mil vs. a-mil, and other popular debates. And I'm ok with that, because though I love theology, I'm more concerned with character and living out life.

[mulls]

FYI I refer often in my studies to Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology textbook.

 

For Christmas I just got Spurgeon's "Treasury of David," his commentary on the Psalms.

[mulls]

Here is my favorite quote ever on theology:

 

"Correct theology, believed correctly, always leads to the santification of the believer, which, simply put, is the practice of love"

 

In the same paragraph the writer goes on to say:

 

"It is so much easier to be lost in the beauty, the faithfulness, the cohesiveness, the clarity of sound Reformed theology than to be lost in the practice of love, which is, after all, the great aim of orthodox theology."

 

From The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, and Documented

[1oddmanout]

In the same paragraph the writer ges on to say:

 

"It is so much easier to be lost in the beauty, the faithfulness, the cohesiveness, the clarity of sound Reformed theology than to be lost in the practice of love, which is, after all, the great aim of orthodox theology."

 

From The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, and Documented

 

I can't disagree with the quote; how true. Thanks also for the last few posts of yours - you seem like you are on sound and confident footing in your Walk with Faith, and open and discerning for more learning. Feel free to keep using this thread to let us know of new insights and revelations.