SWIM Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 I was pissed! I remember my first "hearing" the story of jesus's life. I followed it with great interest. When it got to the end, as a little child at the time, I was expecting a really great ending! I thought he would float off the cross, or god would shot lightning at the crowd of onlookers, something, ANYTHING other then just hanging out with his other pals... But nope... Instead he DIES up there... WTF??? Yeah, perfect opp to "prove" he was from god. Oh no, xtians say, proof would have destroyed faith. DOH!! Hey morons! All the supposed *miracles* were intended to be proof! Why? Because he *could* have healed the whole world, instead, just a scant few in front of onlookers as proof. So basically the cross was the jews "calling his bluff" like in poker, play em or fold em. He FOLDED! So, my main rant is this: Xtians stop saying proof takes away faith! He spent his whole life supposedly spreading PROOF with miracles, they were proofs, not healings, because he, being god supposedly, could have silently cured the whole world, not the occasional person in front of people. /rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 You've had Xians say that to you? Man, they really shoot themselves in the foot with that one. For one, they are right. Proof does destroy faith. When something is proven fact you don't need "faith" to believe it...it's knowledge at that point. The argument is ridiculous though. Why would they say that? What does it mean? It really seems to suggest willful ignorance. But, to cut my long-windedness really short, you are right, Michael. Jesus totally intended miracles to be "proof" - hell, tongues is supposed to be "proof." Matthew 8:4Then Jesus said to him, "See that you don't tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." Matthew 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. Matthew 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead. 1 Corinthians 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. I guess I don't see what kind of sound argument any Xian could make on such a statement... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott_In_Michigan Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Proof may negate a need for faith, but worship of an unproven entity is much more difficult to accept than the worship of something that you know is there...unless you're unable to think for yourself and would rather dedicate your life to some magical dude because someone else told you to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 I thought he would float off the cross, or god would shot lightning at the crowd of onlookers, something, ANYTHING other then just hanging out with his other pals... I could be mis-remembering this but would it help you to know that there is a (much) later version of the clearing of the temple where he shoots lightning from his eyes (or they at least "glow" ala the g'oauld)? I'll have to go see if I can track that down again... mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 No, no, mwc, you've got it all wrong! It's fireballs from his eyes and lightning from his arse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 No, no, mwc, you've got it all wrong! It's fireballs from his eyes and lightning from his arse! And 8 foot tall of course! FREEEEEEDOM!!! I loved the lines: "I just talked to god" "what did he say?" "he says I'll be fine, but he's pretty sure you're fooked!" LOL Yeah the bolts/fireball crap would have made it a more interesting story, still has a crap I-want-my-money-back-at-the-theater ending though... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhia Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Too bad it didn't end with Christ transcending time and space on the cross - *poofing* off the cross so to speak and then *poofing* back to the temple or Pilate's palace, all buff like a bad 80's rambo-like figure, with a machine gun in each hand, shooting up everyone in sight, lighting the cross on fire, and then leaving in some awesome blaze of glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 See, now there's a shameless excuse for a crappy action flick I would pay very good money to see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 No, no, mwc, you've got it all wrong! It's fireballs from his eyes and lightning from his arse! There once was a man from Madras Whose balls were made out of brass When jangled together They played Stormy Weather And lightning shot out of his ass mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Y'know, something just occurred to me... proof of Jesus, God, the Bible, etc., might eliminate faith, but it would make actual free will (in the sense of informed choice) possible. I mean, if nobody really knows for sure whether or not Jesus was real, or God, or the Bible, or whatever, belief in them is just a crapshoot, just a guess. They might exist or they might not, and while I know that belief in them is considered a choice by a lot of Xians, how meaningful of a choice is it if you don't even know what you're choosing to believe in even exists in the first place? How can anyone really make a choice when they're so ill-informed? If you did know, though, that would eliminate the need for faith at all. If it turned out, for instance, that Jesus really was real, and God suddenly appeared to everybody tomorrow, and said "Heya! Here I am, I really do exist, the Bible was the real deal", or whatever he said, everybody would know for sure - and then they could in fact choose whether or not to follow said God. Faith goes away, it's replaced by a knowledge that proof would bring, and everybody can decide at that point, for real, to follow Jesus or not. We could decide whether or not we thought he was an asshole or thought he was really great, based on his own merits as a real person, instead of some half-assed collection of 2000-year-old hearsay. And why the hell did Thomas get proof, but nobody else does anymore? I wanna know. Sure, I know Jesus said "blessed are they who have not seen and have yet believed" after he let Thomas stick his hand in Jesus' wounds and fondle his liver, but so what? Fine, so other people were more blessed than Thomas - Thomas still got exactly what he needed to believe. Why do the rest of us get the shaft, and how come everybody is supposed to go on this "faith" crap? Anyway. I'm just ranting too. Sorry for the tangent/derail. /rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Y'know, something just occurred to me... proof of Jesus, God, the Bible, etc., might eliminate faith, but it would make actual free will (in the sense of informed choice) possible. That's not a de-rail imo, that was actually the subtle point of the OP The story is ABOUT him giving out proof left an right, over an over, till his "bluff" is finally called. Now, were this story NOT a fairy tale, what religion would pretty much ALL the jews have had, if jeebus jumped down off the cross and pulled out a light sabre? LOL no doubt in my mind, this story, the ending, is just a spin on a bad end to a traveling cultist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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