NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 This is both for Christians and non-christians. You may claim yourself to be openminded and accepting, but when it comes to an intelligent conversation people seem to bend to the will around them. It's childsplay to claim yourself something before you have experienced more than a handful of definitions and one or two books. It's like a teenager claiming they are an anarchist because they like the definition thats in a dictionary; When the reality of the situation is that Anarchy is not just anti-establishment it's very much more deep. Though this is not my question at all those are just examples, my question is: Why do people put themselves in a group with others? Dressing the same, Acting the same, even getting stright to basics, talking the same? Why is it people feel they need constant companionship with others to survive this world? And even though they know little about what they claim they will still defend it to ad nauseam? I have one guess, and it is because people aren't really as independant as they think themselves to be. Some will go about and claim they are a Socialist in America just to "be" different and yet in reality they are exactly the same as you or I. I think it's becasue no metter what diety, or omnipotent being you choose or do not choose you ultimately understand that in life no matter what you do the only way to believe that anything you do matters is to tell yourself there is this diety or omnipotent being, and seeing such in others makes you feel as if this is true. Please if you reply, don't be a smartass. I get enough of my own obserdity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no-one Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Why do people put themselves in a group with others? Dressing the same, Acting the same, even getting stright to basics, talking the same? Why is it people feel they need constant companionship with others to survive this world? Human nature. No one wants to feel like they're alone and humans have a deep grained need to be with their own kind. I don't know much about anthropology but I'm sure if you did a bit of research you would find lots of research about how when we all lived in tribes and fought other tribes that we all dressed and talked the same etc. I have one guess, and it is because people aren't really as independant as they think themselves to be. Some will go about and claim they are a Socialist in America just to "be" different and yet in reality they are exactly the same as you or I. I think it's becasue no metter what diety, or omnipotent being you choose or do not choose you ultimately understand that in life no matter what you do the only way to believe that anything you do matters is to tell yourself there is this diety or omnipotent being, and seeing such in others makes you feel as if this is true. Please if you reply, don't be a smartass. I get enough of my own obserdity. I haven't ever thought humans were independent. We're a pack animal, always have been. If you're questioning the existence of this website then I think I can answer your question. Most people came here for support (I know I did) from people who have been through the same thing. We've all got fairly similar stories and it is nice to know we're not alone. We're not 'trying' to be different, we just came here to talk to someone friendly who understood our problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 What's the question you want to debate? This sounds more like a rant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Though this is not my question at all those are just examples, my question is: Why do people put themselves in a group with others? Dressing the same, Acting the same, even getting stright to basics, talking the same? Why is it people feel they need constant companionship with others to survive this world? And even though they know little about what they claim they will still defend it to ad nauseam? In Short, You are unique and individual just like everyone else. There is nothing wrong with being a loner, but there's nothing wrong with being social either. Even if you're a loner you're still grouped as a loner, there is no evading a grouping, it's the way life works To each their own. I'm not really sure the point of your post, I agree with Graphicsguy, your post seems more like a rant to me. What does being open minded have to do with being a loner or social? One can be closed minded and be in either/or group, same goes for being open minded. Maybe you could please clarify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 ok to clarify, my main question without all the fomalities and what-not is Why do people change to those around them when they where better off letting those around them change instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 ok to clarify, my main question without all the fomalities and what-not is Why do people change to those around them when they where better off letting those around them change instead? Some are natural followers and want to keep up with the Joneses, others are natural trend setters and leaders. It's not anything more or less. BTW, Welcome to ex-C! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 thank you, I have a lot of questions so I came here hopefully to find some incite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 thank you, I have a lot of questions so I came here hopefully to find some incite. Lots of incite to be found here! Quite a bit of insight as well Welcome to ex-c! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 ok to clarify, my main question without all the fomalities and what-not is Why do people change to those around them when they where better off letting those around them change instead? In what context? Are you asking why ex-xtians "stick together" or have you been snubbed by someone else or what? Why come to ex=c to rant unless it's concerns us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 if you can't understand the question, don't answer it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 if you can't understand the question, don't answer it. Hey man, don't be flippant. You posted this in the colosseum which is supposed to be for serious debates yet your question leaves little to debate unless there is some kind of context. Why do people change to those around them when they where better off letting those around them change instead? Who's changing who around who? Why should anybody try to change anybody else? Why should anybody wait around forever for someone else to change? What if everyone in the room thinks they are fine and that everyone else should change? The list of questions goes on and on. I think asking for context is quite relevant. And I don't think this is a colosseum topic. It still sounds like a personal rant that you are wanting advice on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 this one's done, it was a dumb question, I posted a better one in the lion's den about ultimatums...sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 ...my question is: Why do people put themselves in a group with others? Dressing the same, Acting the same, even getting stright to basics, talking the same? Why is it people feel they need constant companionship with others to survive this world? And even though they know little about what they claim they will still defend it to ad nauseam? Humans are a social creature. We crave and need relationships and the feeling of belonging. That's one of the reasons why religion is so powerful, or a political party, or clubs of different kinds. It's because in our mind, we copy and compare ourselves to others, and that's how we define our self. We know who we are, based on others. We watch the good and bad things and make judgments and that teaches us to grow and change, and we need this. I have one guess, and it is because people aren't really as independant as they think themselves to be. Correct. We're not. We know the things we know because we learned it through interaction with other people. For instance, you come here and you ask these questions, and you do so because you want to know and understand. If we weren't here, would you be able to ask these questions and expect answers? Of course not. So you need this group, and us, to ask the question, and you are then dependent just as much as anyone else. Some will go about and claim they are a Socialist in America just to "be" different and yet in reality they are exactly the same as you or I. I think it's becasue no metter what diety, or omnipotent being you choose or do not choose you ultimately understand that in life no matter what you do the only way to believe that anything you do matters is to tell yourself there is this diety or omnipotent being, and seeing such in others makes you feel as if this is true. I'm not sure what you mean... I'm confused from that statement. Do you compare socialists with non-theists, or ... what?... Please if you reply, don't be a smartass. I get enough of my own obserdity. This topic is in the Colosseum so people have to keep 'tudes to a minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 ok to clarify, my main question without all the fomalities and what-not is Why do people change to those around them when they where better off letting those around them change instead? Because then the other ones are not better off. You say, why should A change and conform to B, when it's better if B change and conform to A. Why is that better? Who has the more value: A or B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Why is that better? Who has the more value: A or B? That was the question I was looking for with my rambling. The sleep-fog is still heavy this morning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 Why is that better? Who has the more value: A or B? That was the question I was looking for with my rambling. The sleep-fog is still heavy this morning... but you see that wasnt the question i posed...my question was why....why do people feel the need to change to look better? It doesnt matter if A or B has a better value its seems people change to the majority most of the time but why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decafaholic Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Interesting observation. Yeah, I think it's funny when teenagers will say they're an anarchist or a satanist or whatever just because it sounds cool. I remember when I was about 13 I drew a nazi symbol on my wrist just because I thought it looked cool. I really didn't know what all it meant, I was just being stupid. A teacher briefed me on what the nazis believed and asked me to wah it off, so I did. Hmmm, labels. I'll admit, It's nice to have a label when you've spent so long in an identity crisis. Sometimes they're accurate and sometimes they're makeshift until you can find something better to call yourself. Example: When I was in jr high, I was addicted to hurting myself, which is called "self-injury" within the community. But I've realized that when you say "self-injury", people don't know what you're talking about. They only understand the term "cutter." so instead I use the word "cutter" even though cutting wasn't what I was in to. This subject reminds me, last summer after I lost my faith, I had been agnostic (neither believed nor disbelieved in a god) for a few months and I was sitting down with my pastor explaining why I became agnostic. I said I learned in philosophy class that wrong and right are non-issues. The only thing that matters is what is useful and the beliefs that used to help me, now just made things more complicated and they just didn't work anymore. That irritated him and he accused me of claiming to be agnostic because it was the cool thing to do. That stung more than anything he could have said, because I really was agnostic and had gone through a long, painful process of losing my faith. It had nothing to do with trying to sound cool. The rest of the conversation was equally productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Why is that better? Who has the more value: A or B? That was the question I was looking for with my rambling. The sleep-fog is still heavy this morning... I'm two cups of coffee ahead of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 but you see that wasnt the question i posed...my question was why....why do people feel the need to change to look better? It doesnt matter if A or B has a better value its seems people change to the majority most of the time but why? No, but the question in return was relevant to your question... The question of "why" does seem to put people into only two categories when, in reality, individuals don't fit into categories at all. If you are lumping people into a society then it kind of works. Much like Hari Seldon's formulae for psycho-history would work for the masses, but not for individuals. Groups, society as a whole will generally move in predictable directions, yet individuals are almost entirely unpredictable...especially intelligent individuals. Yes, there are certain ones who may "go with the flow", yet there are so many others who do not. Overall though, humans are social animals and most tend to need a place to "belong." Yet, not everyone fits everyone else's mold. Not everyone fits into each person's social club. Individualism is a marvelous thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I'm two cups of coffee ahead of you. More than 4 hours sleep as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 but you see that wasnt the question i posed...my question was why....why do people feel the need to change to look better? It doesnt matter if A or B has a better value its seems people change to the majority most of the time but why? Peer pressure. We want to fit in. But you do have renegades like us that don't want to fit in, and we create our own group where we all fit in... Humans started out by living in small societies. Surival from day to day was dependent on that the members in the group could work together. It required that each individual could conform to safety procedures and routines that would increase security and surivival of them all. Anyone that would not conform, would obviously leave the group and more likely to die and have no offspring. This lead to that humans, as a species, got to keep this little function in our brain that sometimes is called "monkey see - monkey do". Which is, we copy-cat other peoples behavior. It also helps us create good rapports with other people for the purpose of communicating our ideas. Basically, if I want to tell you something that is different from what you think, if I first make sure you and I are similar to some level you will be more likely to listen to me. So conformity might be required to change someone else. In other words: A might become more like B, just for the purpose to influence B to become more like A later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 More than 4 hours sleep as well? As a matter fact, this night I got a whole whopping 5 hours continuous sleep. The dogs woke me up at 1 AM of unknown reasons (usually doesn't happen), but after that I got some shut-eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameSam Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 but you see that wasnt the question i posed...my question was why....why do people feel the need to change to look better? It doesnt matter if A or B has a better value its seems people change to the majority most of the time but why? No, but the question in return was relevant to your question... The question of "why" does seem to put people into only two categories when, in reality, individuals don't fit into categories at all. If you are lumping people into a society then it kind of works. Much like Hari Seldon's formulae for psycho-history would work for the masses, but not for individuals. Groups, society as a whole will generally move in predictable directions, yet individuals are almost entirely unpredictable...especially intelligent individuals. Yes, there are certain ones who may "go with the flow", yet there are so many others who do not. Overall though, humans are social animals and most tend to need a place to "belong." Yet, not everyone fits everyone else's mold. Not everyone fits into each person's social club. Individualism is a marvelous thing. Individualism is a dream, to be completely individualistic you'd have to have 3 arms a tail and speak an alien language never known....We are all Human, all too human* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 if you can't understand the question, don't answer it. Are you trying to insinuate that you are a True individualist while the rest of us are just posers? If we misunderstand your question it is probably due to the fact that you seem to need to brush up on your communication skills a bit. From an objective perspective you come across as self righteous. This may not be your position at all, but with your snippy response here, what else could a reasonable person conclude? As to the question, aren't we all just products of our environment and genetic instinct? Some have more tools and more experience than average, but humans are social animals. If you are looking for something that is absolutely profound and absolutely unique you should probably look to another species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 As a matter fact, this night I got a whole whopping 5 hours continuous sleep. Yeouch...my sympathies then. You've got a family and probably work a lot harder than I do. What the hell kind of coffee are you drinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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