Which Would You Rather Be: Cousin To A Monkey Or Dirt?

[Manditag in AK]

This concept has really hit me lately. I read many posts denigrating the very concept of evolution, while simultaneously praising the creation version of the conception of the universe.

 

I also read recently (on this board, I think) about how religions tend to fall into 2 categories regarding the followers: self-denying and self-affirming.

 

The combination has me thinking: Maybe that's why Christians inherently feel so worthless. After all, without God we'd all be dirt. The only reason we're better than dirt is because God put himself into our dirt, and so if we pretend we're more like God we can ignore that we're really just dirt.

 

I dunno...personally I think I'd prefer to play cards with my monkey relatives.

[Deva]

I don't know how anyone can come out of a Christian church that teaches original sin and not feel lower than dirt. It is one of my most basic objections to Christianity.

 

Welcome to Ex-Christians, Manditag!

[Grandpa Harley]

Ape. Everytime. The Gorilla and the Orang have many traits we aspire to...

 

Monkeys are not apes, btw... you may want to edit that since it just looks stupid...

[R. S. Martin]

Good questions you're asking.

 

This concept has really hit me lately. I read many posts denigrating the very concept of evolution, while simultaneously praising the creation version of the conception of the universe.

 

I also read recently (on this board, I think) about how religions tend to fall into 2 categories regarding the followers: self-denying and self-affirming.

 

The combination has me thinking: Maybe that's why Christians inherently feel so worthless. After all, without God we'd all be dirt. The only reason we're better than dirt is because God put himself into our dirt, and so if we pretend we're more like God we can ignore that we're really just dirt.

 

I dunno...personally I think I'd prefer to play cards with my monkey relatives.

 

I'm going to repost part of a post I just wrote for another thread because I think it fits so well here too:

 

One of Christianity's most powerful tools is guilt. Its twin is shame. Guilt for having committed sin. Shame for being unworthy. Roll the two into one and you get unworthy sinner. What do they force new converts to confess? "I am a sinner saved through the shed blood of Christ" or something to that effect.

 

1. Sin is intentionally doing that which we know is wrong.

 

COMMENT: Who does that? Nobody that I know of. Some people do it out of rebellion or some other dysfunction. When we get rid of all the dysfunctions we get outstanding behaviour. In other words, humans are good deep down if only love can connect with that good.

 

2. With the belief that one is a sinner the stage is set for shame.

 

COMMENT: This is where religion wants its members. They are vulnerable and easily manipulated. They will do anything to get rid of the guilt and shame, whether real or imagined. I hold that it is imagined.

 

QUOTE: Shame is the uncomfortable or painful feeling that we experience when we realize that a part of us is defective, bad, incomplete, rotten, phoney, inadequate or a failure. In contrast to guilt, where we feel bad from doing something wrong, we feel shame from being something wrong or bad. Thus guilt seems to be correctible or forgiveable, whereas there seems to be no way out of shame. -Charles L. Whitfield in Healing the Child Within, 1987, p. 44.

 

The most powerful anti-dote for the guilt-shame complex I know is to learn who one is and to learn to be happy with oneself. To find out who you are, start by figuring out your likes and dislikes, and by listing the pros and cons of these. Embrace the pros. I think you will grow into the kind of person you want to be, the kind of person the Bible tells us to be. And it will be relatively painless and fast. But don't try to be a good example; just try to be you.

********************

Manditag, welcome to the forums. As you can see, I don't think we need god in us to feel worthy. I think we need to get religion out of us to get rid of the poison that makes us feel unworthy. In other words, it seems to me that religion intentionally makes its people feel unworthy so they will accept the "medicine" of salvation.

 

I forget in whose thread or post I read the idea but religion is the product. It's the church's role to create a need so it will sell. Convince people they need salvation and the church will get new converts to fill the pews (read collection plate). Where I come from, there are no converts but there are also few apostates. Families are large and the community grows by leaps and bounds from within like rabbits. How do they keep their off-spring? By instilling from birth that it is the only safe place from Satan and his wiles. This, along with ostracization for deviants, effectively creates a large enough "need" for safety to retain the vast majority of off-spring.

[Manditag in AK]

I know what you mean: Not being christian this month has been incredibly freeing, personally. I have starting doing things I've said I was going to do for forever....but when it's only me now who is accountable for my behavior, rather than some evil force, or even the lack of a good one, the excuses evaporate quickly.

 

 

Thanks for the input, Grandpa Harley, I didn't know that....I guess that's what comes of growing up in a family who applauded anyone who could get even a C in science class.

 

Oh, and I'm not sure how to edit things yet. An explanation would be helpful.

 

Thanks!

[Kenny]

Great post, Manditag. Posts like this are why I'm starting to really love this forum. They make me think about things I haven't considered before.

 

Monkey or dirt? At one time in my life, it meant everything. Now I find that it means nothing. (Not your post or your thoughts! Rather, the question.) The point is that I'm here. I don't have to know why and that is liberating. I'm here. Right now. I know that one day, sooner or later, I won't be. And that's that. But the origin of man - or even life itself - isn't anything I had anything to do with and I certainly can't change it. What I can do, however, is do my best to be deserving of the title of Homo Sapien and try to make my little spot on the planet a bit more pleasant for myself and those whom I come into contact with. I don't require anything but personal results to determine my worth and that makes me a happy camper.

[Ouroboros]

Wait a minute. We can synchronize the different ideas. Lets say Adam was a monkey! A dirt-monkey. Maybe that's what theistic evolution is about?

 

I actually find it quite funny when Hovind (may IRS show mercy on his soul) claim that those Evil Evolutionists believe that Humans came from the ROCK! Oooooh... I'm so shocked! How can that be? Humans from rock? Oh, not so. Humans came from dirt, silly scientist...

 

Ape. Everytime. The Gorilla and the Orang have many traits we aspire to...

Mud slinging is a fun sport... And who wouldn't be jealous of sitting in a tree, scratching ones butt and just make silly noises. ...

[R. S. Martin]

Oh, and I'm not sure how to edit things yet. An explanation would be helpful.

 

Thanks!

 

Keep on posting and eventually you'll get an edit button. I'm not sure what the magic number is. It will just be there one day. It's automatic. At least, this is what I gather from discussions between new members and old timer managerment.

[R. S. Martin]

Wait a minute. We can synchronize the different ideas. Lets say Adam was a monkey! A dirt-monkey.

 

According to the Bible humans are made of dirt. The monkey part--who cares about that so long as you're not hurting (mocking) anyone. Where I come from, it was used in loving banter by anyone for anyone depending on the situation.

 

According to what we all know and observe, bodies decompose to dirt after death. I personally have never seen a decomposed human body but I have seen enough decomposed animal bodies to believe that the same happens to human bodies. And I have seen the rich growth of grass at the same spot in years following the decomposition of the big black dog in the roadside ditch.

 

According to the Bible, Manditag, your OP is right on. We're made of dirt and filled by God('s breath). Since God is spirit, and I cannot see any difference between breath and spirit, it seems that according to the Bible humans are made of dirt and filled with God. What happens at death proves this. Breath is gone and the body decomposes to dirt.

 

What would happen if one of us with a fundy family raised this for a discussion topic at the next family gathering? If you need any fancy arguments, the Greek word pneuma means both breath and spirit. In John 3:8 it is translated once as wind and once as spirit; in Rev. 11:11 it is translated as breath. This applies for NIV and NRSV. The KJV translates it as Spirit with a capital S.

Rev. 11:11, KJV And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

 

Rev. 11:11, NRSV

^

But after the three and a half days, the breath

^{b}

of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and those who saw them were terrified.

 

^{b}

Or

the spirit

There are many more entries for pneuma in the lexicon I used.

[Taphophilia]

Apes are larger than monkeys, have fewer young (spend a longer time raising them), spend more time upright, and depend more on their eyes than on their noses. They also see color like we do. Unlike monkeys, apes do not have tails. But the most important difference is that apes are more intelligent than monkeys. Their brains are larger and more developed, and apes can learn and pass along information. They also use tools. Anyone who doesn't think humans are like apes doesn't know that much about them. In fact, humans are a type of ape.

 

[R. S. Martin]

Apes are larger than monkeys, have fewer young (spend a longer time raising them), spend more time upright, and depend more on their eyes than on their noses. They also see color like we do. Unlike monkeys, apes do not have tails. But the most important difference is that apes are more intelligent than monkeys. Their brains are larger and more developed, and apes can learn and pass along information. They also use tools. Anyone who doesn't think humans are like apes doesn't know that much about them. In fact, humans are a type of ape.

 

Taph, you've piqued my interest. I'm going to have to educate myself. Those apes resemble humans more than some of the various types of dogs resemble each other yet we KNOW all of them are dogs.

 

QUESTION: Can apes talk with voice in human-like language?

[Taphophilia]

QUESTION: Can apes talk with voice in human-like language?

 

No, only humans have a larnyx capable of our speech, which is also why humans can choke on food and other animals don't. Although, apes do have a type of language and communicate with each other. In captivity some have been taught sign language. http://koko.org/friends/ (notice Koko's pet kitten)

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks for the url, Taph. I read several pages just now and it answers some questions. After I wrote my post and before I found yours, I looked up apes in wikipedia and read several articles. That gave me quite a bit of technical background for understanding the Koko and Michael stories.

 

Here are the articles I read in case anyone is interested:

• Apes (general article)
  
• Animal Language (includes apes)
  

Maybe that's all that is directly relevant to this topic. There's a lot of info in the general article and it's loaded with links.

[Manditag in AK]

Maybe it's just me, but every time I even think of any sort of monkey/ape/etc...I see those big lips and can't help but smile....

 

 

Or maybe it's too many birthday cards with monkey pictures on them.

 

[Grandpa Harley]

Wait a minute. We can synchronize the different ideas. Lets say Adam was a monkey! A dirt-monkey. Maybe that's what theistic evolution is about?

 

I actually find it quite funny when Hovind (may IRS show mercy on his soul) claim that those Evil Evolutionists believe that Humans came from the ROCK! Oooooh... I'm so shocked! How can that be? Humans from rock? Oh, not so. Humans came from dirt, silly scientist...

 

Ape. Everytime. The Gorilla and the Orang have many traits we aspire to...

Mud slinging is a fun sport... And who wouldn't be jealous of sitting in a tree, scratching ones butt and just make silly noises. ...

 

Those are chimpanzees... who have many traits we'd prefer not to have...

[Grandpa Harley]

QUESTION: Can apes talk with voice in human-like language?

 

No, only humans have a larnyx capable of our speech, which is also why humans can choke on food and other animals don't. Although, apes do have a type of language and communicate with each other. In captivity some have been taught sign language. http://koko.org/friends/ (notice Koko's pet kitten)

To pick that up... the descended larynx, the reason we can speak, is also the adaption that means we can dive underwater without significant discomfort. Apes can breath while eating, but can't dive...

[Evolution_beyond]

I'd rather be related to chimps, gorillas and orang-utans than to dirt.

[The-Captain]

The sign language gorilla project was mentioned earlier....I was always amazed by that. I remember one part, when one of the researchers that had been away during a pregnancy that resulted in a miscarriage returned. One of the female gorillas asked where she had been, the researcher signed back something about the loss of her child. The female gorilla had lost a child too and signed back the symbols for sad and hurt, and if I remember right made a move to console the researcher. If all that was true I certainly dont mind being related to other primates, I would rather worry how they feel about us.

[Mythra]

Ape.

 

For sure.

 

I've often admired the simple ingenuity of shitting in one's hand and flinging it at mocking idiots.