GraphicsGuy Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Okay, so I've been going through some legal issues lately that I am really not willing nor particularly at liberty to discuss here, but here's an interesting development today. I have just been served some family court documents from my ex regarding my visitation rights with my little girl. I was expecting these and one particular stipulation she lists (in regards to visitation time) screams the whole issue out: "No discussion of religion" That's exactly what this is all about. That's what started it and that's what's going to drag it on for a while I don't doubt. It's really, REALLY stupid. How the hell do you even define "no discussion"? What if my little girl wants to talk about it? What if she asks me questions? It's stupid mostly because I never have and never intend to discuss religion with her until she's much older and even then only at her request. She's 5, she is a child, I let her be a child. I don't try to argue philosophy and apologetics with a 5 year old. Yet, my little one has often told me that I need to go to church (I just say, "I do") and told me that people who don't believe in Jesus will go to hell (I say, "oh, really? That's interesting") and has mentioned numerous times that we need to make sure we pray for our supper. Gee...which parent is the one "discussing religion" here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Bring that up in court.... it cuts both ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Yes, I would say that any such rule would have to apply to both parties. I don't see how this would hold up in court. I don't think it would here. Good luck! Kells EDIT: GET A DECENT ATTORNEY! Trust me on this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I think that if you can establish Religious bias you could appeal to the crown... not sure that still applies to Canadian law but as a member of the Commonwealth it may still do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 So... what she's really saying is, "I don't want you putting down my beliefs and trying to turn our daughter against me." What's good for the gander is good for the goose. That street runs both ways and it's apparent that she's under the impression she lives on a one way street. Don't put up with that shit. Fight for your rights to be 100% dad in every way possible. I feel for you all the way around but especially since there's an innocent little girl caught in the middle. I know it breaks your heart and for that, I'm truly sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtdude Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 GG, don't be offended by this but your ex sounds like a royal bitch with a big stick crammed up her ass.... Oh jesus MM, I just about peed my pants reading this! Ah, isn't it touching when the mother, universal symbol of gentle nurturning, begins using the 5 year old as cannon fodder in a custody battle. I'm moved beyond words. In other words, GG there is a really good reason why this marriage is over. She's a total Loser. Unless of course you have been playing Sam Harris' audio of "Letter to a Christian Nation" during bedtime story hour with a Voltaire chaser, just to get a rise outta her. Which I doubt. Lawyer up (as The Dick Cheney used to say) and smack her w/ her own medicine. Of course, I really doubt the court can direct any parent to avoid the subject of religion in any context, but I'm no lawyer. I just sorta doubt there can be a restriction on that. You are wise not to discuss it w/ your daughter, IMHO. I've always respected parents who leave the spiritual/religious education of their children up to their children to figure out on their own. Good luck, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 16, 2008 Author Share Posted February 16, 2008 Thank you all so much for the support! I've been dealing with this for close to a month now and finally got the papers today. I knew the religious issue was at the heart of the matter and this proves it. I will admit that I did some stupid shit in my brain-addled/fundy days that I'm paying for now. I'm taking responsibility for it, but it's not my fault overall since my life was very much out of my control. Gives her some leverage in this, but ultimately we'll come out on even terms. I have determined not to let it get me down. I'm facing it head up, shoulders straight. I will get through it. A few months to a year from now this will all be in the past (as long as it doesn't drag on too long). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Gee...which parent is the one "discussing religion" here? Hypocrisy, thy name is jebus cult. Business as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Thank you all so much for the support! I've been dealing with this for close to a month now and finally got the papers today. I knew the religious issue was at the heart of the matter and this proves it. I will admit that I did some stupid shit in my brain-addled/fundy days that I'm paying for now. I'm taking responsibility for it, but it's not my fault overall since my life was very much out of my control. Gives her some leverage in this, but ultimately we'll come out on even terms. I have determined not to let it get me down. I'm facing it head up, shoulders straight. I will get through it. A few months to a year from now this will all be in the past (as long as it doesn't drag on too long). I highlighted a few key points but I just like your overall attitude, GG. You're putting the blame where it normally belongs--on all parties involved in a conflict, no matter if it's in a marriage or at work or some other situation. For me to get a handle on a situation, this kind of analysis always helps, so I think you're approaching this in the best way possible. When you have a realistic picture in your own brain as to what really is going on and who contributed what to the situation, guilt trips and emotional manipulation lose their power. It puts you in a position where you can choose some of the shots--whether you want to make it nice or nasty for the opponent. Sometimes the opponent is so nasty that all one can do is defend and protect oneself, but when the opponent begins to trust the situation somewhat and calms down a bit, that's when the element of choice comes in. As for not discussing religion...I know what it's like being a child with burning questions and adults who just put me off. I think for a child who has been raised with so much religion as your daughter has been, it is abusive to suddenly cut off all discussion about religion--to not answer any questions. I think it is decent to help a child think through her own questions and not just shut her up. It teaches her critical thinking skills. If one parent is a religious zealot and the other is atheist, one day she's going to need those critical thinking skills, if for nothing else, just to decide what is right for herself. (I don't know exactly where you're at right now, nor do I know where you'll be by the time she's a teenager.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandermac Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 My daughter was raised by my ex. I was able to see her almost anytime I wanted and we had no stipulations on what could be discussed. She was raised in the Southern Baptist Church, was a Sunday school teacher, missionary trips, the whole bit. I was a believer part of that time but didn't go to church. She and I didn't really ever discuss religion other than what she was doing at church which sounded more like a club to me, I was raised pentecostal, we had no fun. During the last few years she began to notice that I didn't believe any longer and church discussion stopped. She wouldn't listen and I didn't force it. She is now in her second semester of college and has made a complete turn around. She no longer believes. I guess what I'm trying to say and not very well ( because I'm sick with a head full of snot) is that maybe you don't have to discuss it. Seeing you happy without god may be enough to make her question it. I don't understand how that can be legal to say what you can discuss with your kid. Sounds like your ex is using her to get back at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 GG, these guys here nailed it. It cuts both ways. Your ex opened pandora's box. Agree not to discuss religion. Demand the same in return. Either the judge is going to grant her a double standard or your ex just fucked herself. And for god's sake (euphamism) get a lawyer. Don't try and handle this alone. Regular guys get chewed up and spit out in the legal system, no matter how smart they are. A few hundered bucks can mean the difference between freedom, or years and years of misery as you co raise your daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Agree not to discuss religion. Demand the same in return. Either the judge is going to grant her a double standard or your ex just fucked herself. I wish I were as confident as others that things work this way. If one parent has primary custody, the double-standard already exists. In such a case, the judge could very easily rule in favor of the custodial parent. It sucks, though. I don't think I could bear it if my (hypothetical) ex-wife drove a religious wedge between me and my children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Oh yeah...the lawyer thing...Vigile, Curtdude and Kelli are absolutely right; you need an advocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted February 16, 2008 Author Share Posted February 16, 2008 My father is advising me to get a lawyer as well...I think I will do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Kitty Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 My father is advising me to get a lawyer as well...I think I will do so... You won't be sorry. Get the best lawyer that you can afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellsybop Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I've been through a divorce too... they are right my friend.. you MUST have a lawyer and don't take the short end of the stick either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldApostate Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 My father is advising me to get a lawyer as well...I think I will do so... I'm not just saying this because I am a divorce lawyer, but a lawyer is a good idea. Don't underestimate the stress involved in dealing with the personal issues and then trying to figure out the legal system and dealing with all of those issues. A lawyer can also be very reassuring because parties frequently throw things out that have no basis in law, hoping that the nonrepresented spouse will simply agree out of ignorance. I've debunked a lot of threats for my clients, which can reduce a lot of the stress. You're in another country, so I can't really offer much of anything helpful. In California, the custodial parent generally chooses the religion of the child, but cannot interfere in the noncustodial parent's teaching of his or her religious faith (or lack thereof, I would imagine). I feel so much for people that have to go through this. Luckily my ex is also nonreligious, so that has not been an issue. Best wishes in all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 My father is advising me to get a lawyer as well...I think I will do so... You won't be sorry. Get the best lawyer that you can afford. Nahh.... Even if you have to go into hock and have to sell blood weekly to help pay for their services, you get the most vicious and uncaring son or daughter of a bitch blood sucking attorney dealing in marital/custodial problems you can. "Being nice" and "Playing nice" will end up you being Second Place Winner. If that is what you want, find a nice, comfortable just done doing public service *kid* with experience enough to file papers (that you can often do yourself) and cost you dinero and time, as well as custody. Being first to serve on opening salvo of a breakup is usually the halmark of the winner's side. k, works for rat bastard attorneys, FL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Even if you have to go into hock and have to sell blood weekly to help pay for their services, you get the most vicious and uncaring son or daughter of a bitch blood sucking attorney dealing in marital/custodial problems you can. Quoted for truth. If a breakup is amicable, all you really need is a paper pusher or a DIY kit. If your ex-partner is trying to screw you over, what you need is the legal equivalent of a baseball bat and a river full of piranhas. Who the fuck does she think she is, telling you what you can and can not discuss with your own child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizened Sage Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 It may indeed make sense to hire a lawyer, but I think it is a parent's responsibility to teach his children whatever he can about using evidence and logic to reach decisions on important matters. This can be done without ever mentioning religion. Just ask her if she believes in flying elephants (Dumbo?) or any such impossible thing and use that as a segue into the need for evidence as a foundation for belief. If she learns rational, evidence based thinking, she will likely leave religion behind, sooner or later; i.e., because someone says so, is not a good reason to believe something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skiergirl24 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 that is absurd and i would be livid. unfortunately the majority of the population views us agnostics/atheists as evil, sinful creatures while your ex will be viewed as someone trying to instil "good christian values" (biggest oxymoron EVER) in your daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Thats terrible GG. I suppose that what constitutes religion will be left up to her whim? I dont know her, but this sounds so petty and vindictive. She has custody of the kids, already holds the reigns there, and now has to dictate and limit the visitation rights you do have? Sure she may think its in the kids best interests, but that just shows how narrow minded she is if a different world view is a "threat" to her. Not to mention the effect all this legal tripe has on kids, its scary stuff when their world is in flux. Some stability and at least feigned acceptance and peacemaking would be best for them IMO. I hope there is some kind of silver lining in all this, I know you love those kiddos and would hate for you to be seperated from them even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marke Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 The good news is: even it it all goes bad in court and he can't talk a word about religion it is no big deal. Teach your children critical thinking and all will be well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtdude Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 ...Don't underestimate the stress involved in dealing with the personal issues and then trying to figure out the legal system and dealing with all of those issues. A lawyer can also be very reassuring because parties frequently throw things out that have no basis in law, hoping that the nonrepresented spouse will simply agree out of ignorance. I've debunked a lot of threats for my clients, which can reduce a lot of the stress.... Exactamundo. The stress of these custody/divorce battles must be experienced to be believed. Not sure if your ability to pay is an issue. There are pro bono legal services here in the states - I assume Canada has a system for providing legal counsel for folks who cannot pay. I'm still boiling pissed off that she would bring up the religion thing. What a total and complete wackjob. Certainly a good example of who should NOT procreate and raise children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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