Bible Cuts Both Ways

[R. S. Martin]

Recently I was told by a fundy that if one wants to undermine mainline institutions like churches, one is going to face retribution and ridicule.

 

I couldn't quite believe my eyes/ears. Had he never read:

 

Blessed are ye, when

men

shall revile you, and persecute

you

, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great

is

your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you (Matt. 5:10-12).

 

I told him that any lover of truth should not be afraid of ridicule, and would automatically put self in a position for ridicule and retribution from those who wanted to retain the status quo. I went so far as to quote bible at him (not this specific passage but I reminded him that Jesus taught on this topic). Never heard back.

 

I don't think fundies realize how pliable and flexible their bible is. It cuts both ways. They think they have The Truth. I tell them my search for truth took me outside Christianity. I guess that makes no sense to them so they discount it. Next thing they know it bites them in the ass.

[MonolithTMA]

I don't think fundies realize how pliable and flexible their bible is. It cuts both ways. They think they have The Truth. I tell them my search for truth took me outside Christianity. I guess that makes no sense to them so they discount it. Next thing they know it bites them in the ass.

 

They also don't realize that the bible is part of what made many of us question.

[MathGeek]

I didn't even use the Bible to put my two cents in on a fundy video on YouTube...

 

Windsock

 

I told him that his windsock ad-hominem could be thrown back at him in the areas of conversion and history.

 

He laughed me off.

 

I think a key reason why the Bible is still so popular is because of this elasticity that seems to exist within the interpretations. If anybody can somehow derive it, you know they'll believe it.

[JeffXL]

I don't think fundies realize how pliable and flexible their bible is. It cuts both ways. They think they have The Truth. I tell them my search for truth took me outside Christianity. I guess that makes no sense to them so they discount it. Next thing they know it bites them in the ass.

 

When they "interpret" the Bible, what they are really doing is making things up.

 

So, SO many Christians have looked at me with disbelief after I show them an unpleasant or nonsensical verse in the Bible. "That's in the Bible?!?"

 

The spoonfeeding from from pulpit shields them from the lies, contradictions, and cruelty of their holy book.

[Grandpa Harley]

I didn't even use the Bible to put my two cents in on a fundy video on YouTube...

 

Windsock

 

I told him that his windsock ad-hominem could be thrown back at him in the areas of conversion and history.

 

He laughed me off.

 

I think a key reason why the Bible is still so popular is because of this elasticity that seems to exist within the interpretations. If anybody can somehow derive it, you know they'll believe it.

 

BTW... if it's not performance art on her part, as a Brit, I make unreserved apologies for my small island for birthing Mackiemoo... I'm sorry... so, so, sorry... so sorry you wouldn't believe...

[Grandpa Harley]

Oh, and I've flagged it as offensive

[R. S. Martin]

I didn't even use the Bible to put my two cents in on a fundy video on YouTube...

 

I use it because it comes naturally to me. It's just the way my brain works because it's all my brain knows.

 

It's funny, though, the way they "interpret" my way of using the Bible. They say I twist it to attack their faith.

 

I was trying to understand WHY they believe as they do. My old questions were still haunting me.

 

I think I have finally figured it out. I told them so, thanked them for answering my questions, and said I could now rest from my seeking.

 

They're not accepting it. They think I'm just taking a break and yes, a break might seem like rest but it's not really. I guess the atheist is not allowed to feel rest.

 

Crazy loons!

[Kenny]

I don't think fundies realize how pliable and flexible their bible is. It cuts both ways. They think they have The Truth. I tell them my search for truth took me outside Christianity. I guess that makes no sense to them so they discount it. Next thing they know it bites them in the ass.

 

I don't want to come off like a bad ass or anything like that, but through life and some damn good military training, I learned that if you pull a weapon, you'd better use it. Don't pull it and hope to scare someone with it because they very well may take it from you and use it on YOU. If your ass is deep enough in the corner that you feel you need an equalizer, go to the max. With that said, the absolute best way to truly shut a Christian up when they start using their Bible as a weapon is to take it away and beat the shit out of them with it.

 

As soon as they start dancing around with what they think the scripture is saying or what they've been told what they're saying means, I remind them that 1 Corinthians 4:6 warns that they're "not to go beyond what is written". In other words, if they aren't quoting their own book, then what they think or what they've heard doesn't mean jack-diddly-shit. That puts them at a standstill fairly quickly because they generally don't know enough about their own book to quote book, chapter, and verse. I remind them that anything else is... hearsay. (They hate hearing that.) Proverbs 30:6 states, "Do not add to his words, or he will reprimand you, and you will be found to be a liar." That one shuts up 100% of the pulpit/radio/television knowledge they want to spew, too. I use this one on friendly terms and have found that it stops most efforts to soapbox.

 

2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." When my Christian buddies choose to deny the shitty things in their Bible, I'm quick to remind them that the shitty stuff is as "God-breathed" as the feely-good stuff. "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." is every bit as "God-breathed" as "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

 

The more I question, I'm told that I need to just trust. But what about 1 John 4:1? "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." When I question their beliefs and their statements (again, it's usually something regurgitated rather than actual scripture), I'm merely following the "wisdom" of the scriptures, aren't I? It's generally not taken too well when they reach the conclusion that I'm questioning what they say in the light that they may be a false prophet. Oh well. That's what their book says, ain't it?

 

And finally, they initially approve when I mention 1 Thessalonians 5:21 and how it says, "Test everything. Hold on to the good." What they don't like is when I determine that something I've tested in the Bible, in the doctrine of the church, or in the behavior of those who show up every Sunday morning ISN'T GOOD. Then, they don't like my testing. It then becomes apostasy!

 

When they pull the Bible as a weapon, I'm quick to take it from them an batter them with it. They start it. I finish it. And, with a good "Christian" smile on my face, I might add!

[R. S. Martin]

Kenny, I had to read your post a few times. I read it yesterday and again today once or twice. I'm not sure that I know where you're coming from but I think we're saying the same thing. You're definitely not coming off as a bad ass so far as I can tell. But then, maybe I'm just not getting you.

 

First of all, I think we're talking about basic cultural differences. That hit me today when I noticed your reference to "radio/television knowledge." It's a forum for a church that (to the best of my knowledge) does not allows tv and radio. Since they don't have access to radio and tv evangelists, the "knowledge" they have of the Bible may be more sincere and intimate because they had to read it for themselves--physically look up passages in Bibles, read it off the page, etc. for Bible study. They have to set time aside for it, rather than listen to the radio station on their way to or from work, or while doing something else. I don't know if this is how people with radio do it because I myself have never lived with radio or tv.

 

What I do know is that the Bible knowledge people here on exC describe as having had as Christians is extremely superficial compared to what I lived with in the Mennonite community. So what I understand you to say is to take the Bible and beat them over the head with it. I think that is what I did. Earlier the guy was asking is it okay to quote scripture to atheists? and he named me. In one post I mentioned being a rebel, but that I do accommodate The System so long as it doesn't conflict with my values. He wanted to know more specifically what I mean by "system." I provided a sociological overview of the global systems of our human society.

 

So now he was explaining to me that a person who was out to undermine "the System" as in multinational corporations or mainline denominations could not expect to do so without retribution or ridicule. Possibly he had done enough reseach on me to find my website; I have no proof on that. Possibly he thought atheists by default were out to undermine Christianity; I wouldn't know. This is how I replied:

 

I would hope no seeker/lover of truth is afraid of ridicule. Jesus can be seen as the Ideal Man. God can be seen to equal Truth. Jesus commanded us to deny self, take up the cross, and follow him.

 

When I was a Christian, one of my favourite Bible verses was:

 

Isa. 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

 

After my new birth experience, the Bible was revealed to me as I explain it above. My search for truth has taken me outside Christianity. This automatically brings ridicule on my head from Christians, and other kinds of retribution, but a genuine lover of truth will not shrink from following truth just because dominant society does not like it. I find much comfort in the Beatitudes and in Jesus' example.

 

That was four days ago; he has not responded to it.

 

Here's something else I said to him the same day and he has not responded to it:

 

You use some interesting terms. "Fruits of faith" and "faith-based lives." Incidentally, "fruits of faith" is not a scriptural term. The scriptural term is "fruits of the Spirit." Is that what you mean by "fruits of faith"?

 

While we're talking about faith, you must certainly be aware that there is faith outside of religious faith. I once saw a word study done on the history of the word faith. It comes from something akin to trust. We talk about being faithful to one's spouse, keeping faith with one's word (maybe somewhat old-fashioned), etc. James W. Fowler, a Christian, wrote an insightful book called Stages of Faith around 1980.

 

The logical next question would be, given that you talk about fruits of faith and faith-based lives, but you also indicate in other posts in this thread that real morality comes alone through God, how do you account for the same level of faith and goodness coming from other religions and from people of no religion?

 

Perhaps his lack of response is for good reason; maybe he was no where near a computer. I understand he accesses the internet from work and that his work schedule varies.

[Kenny]

I didn't take into effect the cultural differences in the Mennonite community vs. the world I know. I can fully understand where someone might exclusively quote scripture to make their point in the Mennonite community - the scripture would trump everything else. Perhaps someone could use something Brother So-And-So said as a point of reference, but it would most likely be used to drive a point home rather than to expound upon.

 

In my world, radio/television/pulpit sayings and "doctrine" are, many times, THE GOSPEL. If Joyce Meyer or Charles Stanley said it, well... that's as good as Christ to some. I come into contact with so many Christians who can re-tell a story they heard a pastor tell in the pulpit or a lesson they heard on a radio or television segment and, for them, that is truth. It made sense to them at the time and they adopted it as their own viewpoint. Most times, they have no idea what scripture(s) the personality or individual was referencing and they usually have no idea about the context of the scripture if they're aware of it. They hear a sound byte that caught their attention and they run with it. So, there they are - preaching away on something they heard James Dobson say and they're proclaiming it as if it were spoken by God himself. Those are the people who are easy to shut up when it comes to a discussion on religion or doctrine. They are, honestly, oblivious to what their own Bible has to say and yet their mouths are running a mile a minute.

 

The story of the widow's mite is an example I ran into a few days ago. There was a woman wearing a new bracelet and she was very proud to announce that the "charm" on it was the widow's mite and how it exemplified total giving to the Lord. When I mentioned the fact that, in the context of the scriptures, Jesus wasn't really applauding the widow for giving everything she had... well, you could have heard a pin drop. I could literally see the anger in some of their faces and one fellow told me it was EXACTLY what Jesus was doing and he didn't know what Bible I had been reading out of. Upon my asking, he produced a Bible and I turned to Mark, Chapter 12 and read of how Jesus was blasting the scribes and how their desires for social prominence and the good life led them fleece their flock via the collection plate - yes, even to devour the homes of widows! - and that as an example of this, he makes note of a widow giving her last two pennies to a religious system that Jesus found worthy of great condemnation. My point here is not that I'm ultra-intelligent and above these folks. My point is that a Christian company produced a piece of jewelry with a nice, feely-good story attached to it and this woman (and thousands like her) purchased it and wanted to spread the folklore even further. Yeah, I know... I'm a stick in the mud. But there were four or five people standing there who HAD NEVER HEARD, MUCH LESS READ, THAT PORTION OF SCRIPTURE IN ITS CONTEXT. It's a small example, but people are making life decisions and hearing God talk to them and all kinds of crap based on hearsay and things that make them feel nice rather than the actual scriptures by which they claim to live. As a result, it saddens and embarrasses me to see people wallow in their own lack of knowledge as they say ignorant things.