Trev Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 This is something I have been pondering for quite some time and I am interested to hear what others think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Trev I would love to discuss this with you. But I don't understand the question. Could you please explain it a little more for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 Trev I would love to discuss this with you. But I don't understand the question. Could you please explain it a little more for me? Yes some background might not have been a bad thing. When I was a Christian (or trying to be) I started to think about doubt in terms of predestination vs free will and whether or not 'faith' is a cover-all for inaction. Like, if we really do have a choice in whether we get to heaven (or anything at all) - if we have 'free will' - then is it natural that there will be some doubt about our choices? Or, on the other hand, if something is blindly accepted as the 'predestined plan of God' there may not be any doubt but this may imply a denial of reality. I'd put forward the latter might be the path of least resistance for a Christian. i hope this makes sense, anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Okay that gives me a little more to go on. Thank you. I am not sure that I understand, but I’ll throw some thoughts out there for what it’s worth. About two cents. “if we have 'free will' - then is it natural that there will be some doubt about our choices?†First I’ll attempt to address the free will thing from my limited perspective. I was recently telling someone else that I have a strong impression of making decisions. In fact I have agonized over some decisions. And this gives me a sense of exercising a free will. Yet at the same time if asked WHY I made any particular decision I might be able to list off a litany of reasons. And there may be reasons why that I am completely unaware of. So if another who had a greater understanding of me than I do could observe me then they might be able to know well before hand how I would “decideâ€. So, do I have a free will? I don’t know. Now for the other side of the question. I don’t much care for the psychologist Jung. But he seems suggest that when we decide to go one way, the parts of us that wanted to go in other directions are relegated to the “shadow†self. And this shadow resides largely in our subconscious and expresses itself in various ways, if I am reading Jung correctly. So perhaps all doubt is the voice of the shadow. Hopefully if I am wrong here, someone will step in and correct me. "Through pride we are ever deceiving ourselves. But deep down below the surface of the average conscience a still, small voice says to us, 'Something is out of tune.'" -Jung I don’t know if I addressed your question Trev, but at least I made a showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Faith= I don't have one iota of proof. Gawd, in my humble opinion, is a cop-out. All the good things in life are gawd's will and all the bad things are either the debble or somehow you pissed off gawd. Can't be MY mistake, gawd willed it (or not, depending on the argument.) Losing xtianity also means taking responsibility for one's own actions. There isn't a sky spook playing favorites, and if you screw up, you screw up. Enjoy the high spots, , trudge through the low spots, and above all take responsibility for the bad and the good. Cheers --Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 Okay that gives me a little more to go on. Thank you. I am not sure that I understand, but I’ll throw some thoughts out there for what it’s worth. About two cents. “if we have 'free will' - then is it natural that there will be some doubt about our choices?†First I’ll attempt to address the free will thing from my limited perspective. I was recently telling someone else that I have a strong impression of making decisions. In fact I have agonized over some decisions. And this gives me a sense of exercising a free will. Yet at the same time if asked WHY I made any particular decision I might be able to list off a litany of reasons. And there may be reasons why that I am completely unaware of. So if another who had a greater understanding of me than I do could observe me then they might be able to know well before hand how I would “decideâ€. So, do I have a free will? I don’t know. Yes, I think that about sums it up in a nutshell for me. Now for the other side of the question. I don’t much care for the psychologist Jung. But he seems suggest that when we decide to go one way, the parts of us that wanted to go in other directions are relegated to the “shadow†self. And this shadow resides largely in our subconscious and expresses itself in various ways, if I am reading Jung correctly. So perhaps all doubt is the voice of the shadow. Hopefully if I am wrong here, someone will step in and correct me. "Through pride we are ever deceiving ourselves. But deep down below the surface of the average conscience a still, small voice says to us, 'Something is out of tune.'" -Jung I don’t know if I addressed your question Trev, but at least I made a showing. I am largely ignorant of different psychologists and theie theories, but I have to say I like what you said about the 'shadow' self. Faith= I don't have one iota of proof.Gawd, in my humble opinion, is a cop-out. All the good things in life are gawd's will and all the bad things are either the debble or somehow you pissed off gawd. Can't be MY mistake, gawd willed it (or not, depending on the argument.) Yes, I will second that wholeheartedly - or maybe I should say 'Can everyone say Amen to that?' (just kidding!) Losing xtianity also means taking responsibility for one's own actions. There isn't a sky spook playing favorites, and if you screw up, you screw up. Enjoy the high spots, , trudge through the low spots, and above all take responsibility for the bad and the good. Cheers --Larry Being able to take responsibility for your actions is one of the greatest things I am learning, which is not to say I always or even sometimes recognise it, but you know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Like, if we really do have a choice in whether we get to heaven (or anything at all) - if we have 'free will' - then is it natural that there will be some doubt about our choices? Or, on the other hand, if something is blindly accepted as the 'predestined plan of God' there may not be any doubt but this may imply a denial of reality. I think this really all depends on whether the Christian in question believes in free will or predestination. If he/she believes in free will there will probaby be some doubt, but if he/she believes in predestination (like in Calvinism) then there probably won't be any. If you believe in predestination I don't see there would be any reason to question anything at all, since you're existence is nothing more than that of a puppet on a string. When I was a Christian I had lots of doubts but I never really thought of it in terms of free will, I had doubts because it just didn't make a lot of sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 I think this really all depends on whether the Christian in question believes in free will or predestination. If he/she believes in free will there will probaby be some doubt, but if he/she believes in predestination (like in Calvinism) then there probably won't be any. If you believe in predestination I don't see there would be any reason to question anything at all, since you're existence is nothing more than that of a puppet on a string. Yes, definetly When I was a Christian I had lots of doubts but I never really thought of it in terms of free will, I had doubts because it just didn't make a lot of sense to me. lol - yes that's a great point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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