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Questions About Evolution?


acorn

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I have some questions about evolution. I am not in any way scientifically inclined. Other than high school, simplistic knowledge. Mathematics was my favorite. Yet, I took Chem, Physics, Calculus, and Advanced Calculus. I understand basic things regarding science, and I reason that I took the upper courses because of my love of Mathematics.

 

Anyhow. Evolution. Heres my thought. If evolution is and was, Did it stop? The process that is. My knowledge on evolution is this. From whatever (many opinions) happened, we became here in this either simple, primitive stage, or form some type of form of something that evolved over billions of years.

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Evolution is an on-going process. It never stops; our own species is still evolving, or de-evolving if one resides in DC. if our species continues to flourish, it will also continue to change.

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I'm hardly a scientist either, with only some college biology to my credit. Went to a creationist highschool so I'm woefully behind on learning about it. Still I've been reading what I can, and it makes sense.

 

So as far as I know:

 

Nope, didn't stop, its an ongoing process. Its the natural result of life in its environment. I would venture to say it has slowed down where humans are concerned as we've circumvented a lot of the competition and environmental dependence of other animals.

 

Just a bit of random conjecture here, I wonder if ideas and culture are a part of human evolution now? We are sort of moving into new territory in the animal world in terms of brain function.

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evolution doesn't stop. It continues to happen.

 

The reason you don't observe it happening (unless you study microbes, which reproduce at a faster rate and can even swap genetic code sometimes) is that it takes a very long time.

 

But the basic principle is this:

 

In nature, organisms create far more offspring than will actually survive to adulthood. There will also be some variation in their traits. Those that survive long enough to reproduce and so pass on their genes to their offspring will then pass on their traits to their children (with some variation of course)

 

Usually there is very little change in the nature of a given species, because that species has its own niche to fill in the ecology. Changes will still occur however. There will be a general push towards being fitter and stronger at surviving - and also changes according to what potential mates find attractive.

 

But the main changes that lead to new species happen when there are great changes in the environment. Mass extinctions can happen when the climate and environment changes dramatically - and so there is a lot of pressure on animals to survive.

 

At times like these every advantage to survival counts for something - and a species can alter considerably over time, due to changes in environment or the ecological balance shifting (a new and dangerous predator for example). The process is quite simple - as offspring compete against each other to survive, those with traits that give them more of an advantage will survive, leaving the others to struggle and possibly die out altogether. Over many, many generations and at periods of environmental stress for the species there can be considerable change so that a new species comes into existence. In fact the same species in different places can even diverge (because of different environmental factors) and become two totally separate species, both of them different from the original species.

 

It is believed that over the millions of years of Earth's history - all life on our planet came about due to this process of evolution - and that all life on our planet has a common ancestor (some kind of bacteria probably).

 

That's how I understand it anyway. I hope I explained it well. If any biology experts wish to correct me on anything then go right ahead ;)

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Just a bit of random conjecture here, I wonder if ideas and culture are a part of human evolution now? We are sort of moving into new territory in the animal world in terms of brain function.

 

Yes. This is what is meant by using the term 'memes'.

 

They're like genes - and they consist of ideas, concepts, phrases or cultural activites. They seem to behave very like genes. Some memes are better at getting passed on than other memes - so there must be a kind of natural selection at work :HaHa:

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Anyone who does not believe evolution is continuous, never met my landlady!

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Nope, didn't stop, its an ongoing process. Its the natural result of life in its environment. I would venture to say it has slowed down where humans are concerned as we've circumvented a lot of the competition and environmental dependence of other animals.

 

Here's some interesting material that's accessible that I feel puts things in way that's easy to grasp and eye opening.

 

Evolution is our word to describe a series of connected events or things taking place over time. Generally the word is used to describe things proceeding from simple to complex, from disordered to ordered. There is no "force" of evolution. There is no "purpose" driving evolution and no "intelligence". Evolution does not guarantee a perfectly adapted result, but only a "good enough" result to ensure at least temporary survival of a particular organism. Results of evolution are not always "beneficial" but sometimes are benign and unimportant to survival. Of course the process often produces results that jeopardize survival.

 

<snip>

 

Someone may fault me for seeming to be critical of evolution in the last paragraphs. Far from it. I consider evolution of life to be an established fact, and recognize that we have very good knowledge of the natural processes that are responsible for it. But if you ask someone to summarize the basic laws that make up the "theory of evolution", you might get a list of all the laws of physics and chemistry, for they are all part of the process. It isn't a neat, small package of equations such as the equations that make up Newton's mechanics

In essence the act of things moving from less ordered to more ordered, through whatever forces are interacting with each other. This process of ordering and modifying is what we call evolution. These things happen in everyday life, from the box of paper clips on store shelf (an example he gives), to viruses and other complex biological organisms. That process never ends.

 

Highly recommend reading these two link in particular (the second one is my favorite):

 

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/design.htm

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/thoughts.htm

 

Just a bit of random conjecture here, I wonder if ideas and culture are a part of human evolution now? We are sort of moving into new territory in the animal world in terms of brain function.

Random? No. This is known as a bio-cultural feedback loop

 

Selection, and the subsequent changes in fitness, can be viewed as working on a group level, rather than just on individuals. Since culture can be considered as “ways of living, passed down from generation to generation” (Webster's dictionary) and “the totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, art, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought characteristic of a community or population” (The American Heritage Dictionary, second college edition), then can the culture and cultural artifacts of a people be considered part of their extended phenotype, reflecting the underlying genetic biological reality? Certainly. Therefore, the cultural history and achievements of ethnic and racial groups can be considered part of their extended phenotypes, canalizing the environment, with the potential for increasing or decreasing the fitness of the groups. Whether fitness is increased or decreased would depend on how successful the cultural artifacts are in promoting the genetic interests of the groups producing them.

 

<snip>

 

The preferences of the population and the actions it takes to modulate its environment are no more or no less than the entirety of that population's culture.
In other words, culture can be defined as the desire, and the attempt, to canalize an environment to suit the needs of a particular population's genetic structure.
Once the environment has been modified, it then exerts further selective pressure on the population, possibly increasing the frequency of particular genes that influence the extended phenotype of the population.
This, in turn, prompts the population to make further modifications to their environment (cultural expansion), which in turn feeds back once again, via selection, to the population's genes and the resultant extended phenotype.

It's recognized that this sort of pressure moves evolution along at considerably higher rate than biological evolution dependent on natural environmental pressures.

 

It's this concept that I played off of in my topic on Language, Language, Truth, God, and Humanity, of that in an almost "real" sense of the word, God did create us in His image through this pressure. We created God, then God created us in His image. Language is the framework of understanding that shapes reality, and the image of God we created in turn influenced our evolution through this process of a biocultural feedback loop. So in that sense "In the beginning was the word, and all things were created through him...." has a certain truth to it. Kind of interesting twist on the whole thing, don't you think? :grin:

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Its like I've been kept in a very small dark box all these years.....

 

(Thanks for the links and info guys, I don't get much access to this stuff at Baptist U)

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Its like I've been kept in a very small dark box all these years.....

 

(Thanks for the links and info guys, I don't get much access to this stuff at Baptist U)

Wow... it's such a disservice to minds these religious folks do to people. How is ignorance helping them?

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Thanks you guys. Obviously Im a Christian. I think most know that, and I dont want anyone here to think Im trying to stir the pot so to speak. I really just have general questions about evolution and some here seem very educated on the subject.

 

Anyway, reading the above I grasp that evolution is explained in a nutshell as a continuous process, (correct me if Im wrong); also evolving as our earthy conditions change us/things adapting, etc.

 

How did evolution start? Are the Big Bang theory, bacteria forming, etc connected? Or are they separate theory?

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Thanks you guys. Obviously Im a Christian. I think most know that, and I dont want anyone here to think Im trying to stir the pot so to speak. I really just have general questions about evolution and some here seem very educated on the subject.

 

Anyway, reading the above I grasp that evolution is explained in a nutshell as a continuous process, (correct me if Im wrong); also evolving as our earthy conditions change us/things adapting, etc.

 

How did evolution start? Are the Big Bang theory, bacteria forming, etc connected? Or are they separate theory?

Again "evolution" is what we call the changes that occur. How that started was simple interaction: Physical/chemical properties interacting with each other through the application of energy to them. When did that being? The instant there were things with physical properties interacting with each other. In other words, from the moment the universe began.

 

The "Theory of Evolution" is really more about biological organism's change of state leading to the birth of new species from earlier ones. So the Theory of Evolution doesn't speak about things such as cosmology, yet evolution occurs: from gas to a star, to all the elements of the periodic table. Again, read those two links about order from disorder. You'll start to get the picture.

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The "why" of it is anyone's guess though.

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The "why" of it is anyone's guess though.

:wave: I know! It's because God wanted someone to worship him! (oh wait, wrong thread)

 

Would "because" be an appropriate answer to why? I actually think in this case it probably is the right answer.

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The "why" of it is anyone's guess though.

:wave: I know! It's because God wanted someone to worship him! (oh wait, wrong thread)

 

Would "because" be an appropriate answer to why? I actually think in this case it probably is the right answer.

:HaHa: Correct! And the other 99% is there as reminder to schedule some more worship time!

 

 

Because works for me, suppose its as good as I'll ever have.The succinct answer is better than the elaborate one for an unknown, it seems.

 

Since life arose as the interaction of chemicals and physical forces, I suppose that in a way that makes us like the stars or any other physical phenomena of the universe. Just one expression of order coming from whatever junk the universe comes from. Is that a sensible thought :shrug:

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Actually we observe 'new' behaviours all the time... the question is are they 'new' or just previously unobserved... We have little idea when 'new to science' species formed... there is the assumption that they're archaic, but who can say?

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Since life arose as the interaction of chemicals and physical forces, I suppose that in a way that makes us like the stars or any other physical phenomena of the universe. Just one expression of order coming from whatever junk the universe comes from. Is that a sensible thought :shrug:

It's an elegant thought. It's a humbling thought. It's an elevating thought. If someone were to create a mythology, it would be appealing to see the universe as a great mind that comes to understand itself by looking at its body and the sorts of things it creates naturally. Each face is a reflection of itself, and new way for it to understand itself. It's as when we look at the many faces in nature and consider the face of the universe as a whole. It's just starting from the Universe side, looking back to itself rather than the other way around. Reality is, it's all the face we want to put on it, whether it's a purely scientific face to speak to rationality, or a metaphorical face to speak to the spirit through wings of imagination. It's all cool, so long as it doesn't become a religion.

 

Do you know where the bits that make up life came from, meaning carbon, iron, etc? Now that's cool... :grin: (just ask... I'd love to lay it out again... it's so cool)

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Do you know where the bits that make up life came from, meaning carbon, iron, etc? Now that's cool... :grin: (just ask... I'd love to lay it out again... it's so cool)

 

Are you talking about before or after the formation of the earth?

 

I have a passing familiarity with the whole particles in oceans...struck by lightning...amino acids.. Okay why don't you just tell me, if you feel so inclined.

 

Edit: Acorn, I hope I'm not stealing your thread with education time..

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Are you talking about before or after the formation of the earth?

All of it. The whole Genesis story! Since you asked..... :wicked:

 

Genesis

 

In the Beginning... "Let there be light!"

 

The "Big bang" rapidly expands into a complete vacuum a vast hot plasma soup of matter and antimatter, colliding and destroying each other like snakes consuming their own tails into non-existence in bursts of pure energy. Yet a tiny asymmetry in favor of matter allowed the discrepancy to create particles of matter as it expanded out even further, a mere fraction of a second beyond the event. As the infant universe began to cool, these superheated particles of baryon, containing photons, neutrinos, electrons, and quarks, began morphing into composite particles called hadrons. About 3 minutes after the event deuterium is created out of the reaction of protons and neutrons. As it cooled further it changed from deuterium to tritium, to helium. As it continued to cool, excess protons captured electrons to create hydrogen.

 

Speeding up....

 

As the early universe littered with hydrogen and helium atoms reacted to the influence of gravity and came together, they create nuclear furnaces we call stars. As they burned, they pulled in surrounding gas clouds of hydrogen and helium, fueling their reactions. As the surrounding gases are consumed, the early super-massive stars begin to consume themselves, converting the atoms into heavier elements, consuming them leaving heavier elements, consuming them and converting them, and so on until they reach iron, at which point they can consume no further and the entire burning mass collapses in upon itself in a super-massive implosion, creating an extreme opposite reaction of outward explosion, superheating all the elements to create the rest of the periodic table what we know today.

 

The early universe become seeded with these elements born from these hyper-nova. As the forces of gravity act upon the elements floating about as "star dust", they come together and form ever-growing masses of minerals. As these masses become large enough, the gravitation force acting upon their cores creates molten rock, cooking all the elements in their cores; and the heavy elements sink to the core, whereas the lighter elements float to the surface. One such lighter element is carbon - the stuff you and I are made of!

 

So now as the early earth cools, and the wild, highly elliptical orbits of early stellar objects are eliminated through their destruction colliding with larger, more massive planetary bodies; with all conditions settled on the planet "Earth", early life takes hold through the natural responses of chemical process we are yet discovering.

 

From here... as life evolves, and intelligent life emerges, a God is born.. who creates in his own image the life that create him in their own!

 

OK. Genesis is a nutshell. Inspiring? I think it is. :grin:

 

Edit: Acorn, I hope I'm not stealing your thread with education time..

You go right ahead Doc. From a tiny "acorn" grows a massive tree! :HaHa:

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Again "evolution" is what we call the changes that occur.

<snip>

The "Theory of Evolution" is really more about biological organism's change of state leading to the birth of new species from earlier ones.

 

Hi Antlerman. I know what you're trying to say; stars change over time and so do living things. BTW I love your summation of 'scientific genesis' (except for "graviton particles". Perhaps just "gravity" instead?). It's a vivid and understandable explanation IMO.

 

But would you consider not equating the life-cycle of stars with the ToE? I spend a lot of time lurking on the JREF forum and have seen several instances of theists confusing the ToE with the Big Bang theory and also abiogenesis. Your explanation is totally correct but it could be confusing to those who still refuse to understand the simple difference between a hypothesis and a theory. To be blunt, Acorn might not be able to understand the difference between the life-cycle of stars and the evolution of different living things (which was his original question).

 

Humbly yours :beer: ,

 

OBJ

 

(P.S. Just out of curiosity and since you sound well informed, I've also heard that stars tend to destroy themselves once they get to the point that they produce iron. If that's the case, is there a theory or hypothesis that explains the existence of heavier elements like uranium, ect.? I could probably look it up myself but I guess I'm being lazy. TIA.)

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Again "evolution" is what we call the changes that occur.

<snip>

The "Theory of Evolution" is really more about biological organism's change of state leading to the birth of new species from earlier ones.

 

Hi Antlerman. I know what you're trying to say; stars change over time and so do living things. BTW I love your summation of 'scientific genesis' (except for "graviton particles". Perhaps just "gravity" instead?). It's a vivid and understandable explanation IMO.

Thanks. Yes I caught the fault in it. I had particles on the brain, and caught that after the fact Yes, I should have said just gravity. (Edit: just fixed error in original post above and changed graviton particles to 'gravity")

 

But would you consider not equating the life-cycle of stars with the ToE? I spend a lot of time lurking on the JREF forum and have seen several instances of theists confusing the ToE with the Big Bang theory and also abiogenesis.

I did try to qualify the difference in stating that above that says the ToE is about biological organisms and the origin of species. I didn't intend for my "Genesis" account to be so much a point of illustration about what Acorn originally asked about Evolution (contextually understood to be asking about biology). It was more inspired by The Doctor's question about order from disorder, and how "that makes us like the stars or any other physical phenomena of the universe. Just one expression of order coming from whatever junk the universe comes from." I just felt inspired to talk about the 'Genesis" myth in a scientific light. (Ran out of steam, otherwise I would have carried it further :grin: ) I understand the difference, and recognize the confusion a lot of people have with the differences. I hope this bit helps to clarify it for some. Glad you liked that. It's all very inspiring to me. Thanks.

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It certainly is inspiring, illuminating, and some other good adjectives :) , thanks for the "short version" Antlerman. I learned my elements and such but that whole part was always either a blank or left to the Bible classes to talk about.

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What if ...

 

God exists and uses evolution to meet his purposes and what we are today is not what God is waiting for us to become? What if he is waiting for us to complete our evolution before getting in touch with us again? Our evolution is like the dinosaurs. In time they became extinct so that other species could flourish. Someday we will become extinct and another life form will flourish where we once roamed. This idea keeps going back to the point that no matter what we are or what god is, we will never be acceptable in any form. The idea of god in creation limits the possibilities of our creation because it puts limits on the creator. Religion trying to explain the universe is limited by its own gods and their demands on humanity and the universe. For the universe to be eternal or for life to continue on Earth, evolution has to be an eternal process and more inventive than the restrictions religion places on god.

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Thanks everyone for your comments. That sounds alot better than, He took dirt and made man :grin:

I always looked at Genesis more to the effect of a childrens story; and think Genesis was written by a few different authors. Are there Christians out there that believe that God was the catalyst for this worlds process of evolution; or our evolution as the scientific translation of Genesis?

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I still haven't seen compelling evidence evolution has 'stopped'

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Thanks everyone for your comments. That sounds alot better than, He took dirt and made man :grin:

If you read the Bible again, and Genesis, you see it says that God commanded the oceans to "bring forth" life. My interpretation is that in that passage, God does not directly create life, but indirectly. Just something for you to think about.

 

I always looked at Genesis more to the effect of a childrens story; and think Genesis was written by a few different authors.

It's a myth, if you know what the real meaning of "myth" is. That means, the story is not literally true, or historical, but it is an allegory for the idea of how the world came into being, and how humanity strive in a State of Nature, because of ingenuity and an ability to judge and measure good against bad. The moment we started to question why someone is doing something to someone else, and if it was the right thing to do, we became moral agents. And you can't have "sin" against a religious law, unless you have this ability. It is the story about how humanity got the ability to choose between right and wrong.

 

And also, that they ate the fruit wasn't the sin. They didn't know that it was wrong. Eating the fruit was the cause to the ability sin, but it wasn't a sinful act in itself. The first real "sin" in the story is the one with Cain and Abel. That's how I think the story is to be interpreted. But remember, it's a myth to explain the concepts, but not a literal or historical story.

 

 

Are there Christians out there that believe that God was the catalyst for this worlds process of evolution; or our evolution as the scientific translation of Genesis?

Yes. I've met some. And heard interviews with some Jewish scientists too. It's called: Theistic Evolution.

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