Knitterman Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Okay, so today, I put this on my blog: "Happy Sinday"Today, throughout most of the Christian community, Easter is being celebrated. That means they are celebrating the time when Jesus rose from the dead, came out of his tomb, saw his shadow, and declared we shall have six more weeks of Lent. No, seriously, the Christian Church borrowed the resurrection myth from earlier times as a way to perpetuate the belief in the after-life, when the souls of believers will be with God even after the body is returned to the earth from which it came. In the Church, it is taught that the crucifixion was to pay for our sins, and the resurrection is to serve as a promise that we, too, shall one day rise from the dead. The Promise of the Resurrection is one of the major elements of the Christian Faith. It is all bullshit, of course, because once the body dies there is no cognitive activity, no brain activity, and no possibility of awareness. There is no soul or spirit apart from the body. When the body dies, anything that might be called a soul is also dead. The Promise of the Resurrection is just that: a promise. It is not a testable hypothesis, not a proven fact. It’s just a promise, cobbled together from verses plucked here and there throughout the Bible. I used to be a fundamentalist Christian, and I believed what the Bible said about most things. Even back then, however, I didn’t believe the notion that the earth is only 6,000 years old, since I already knew that the earth is over 4.5 billion years old. But the notion that we are all born sinners (because of Adam’s sin and fall from grace), and that Jesus died as a sacrifice/random to pay for our sinful nature, was very much a part of what I believed and taught. Looking back, of course, there was a serious disconnect even then between what I knew and saw and experienced versus what I read in the Bible. But, in order to be a TrueChristian™, one had to believe what the Bible said in spite of every evidence to the contrary. Later on, I realized that the literal Bible didn’t hold water, I explore some of the other methods of Bible interpretation, allegorical, metaphysical, and so forth — if the Bible couldn’t be taken literally, then what underlying literal message was there hidden in the allegory? Well, that didn’t work so well, either, as many different schools of thought on various issues were also in conflict. NObody could seem to agree on what various parts meant. Even Universalist Christianity (which teaches that “Jesus died for all†means just that: that the fall of humanity through Adam was reversed through the sacrifice of Jesus, and that all will be with the Father in Heaven, and none will spend eternity in hell) falls short of rational thought. But getting back to the main point of today: The Promise of the Resurrection. The message is that there will be life after death, that we will remain conscious beyond the death of the body, and that we will be with God. Without eyewitness testimony (pictures would be nice) it remains just a promise. “Oh but it’s God’s promise, so it must be true.†Uhhh… let’s test the credibility or plausibility of that notion. What about peace, for example: “Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee, because he trusteth in thee.†(Isa. 26.3), or “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.†(Phil. 4.9) Hmmm… that sure sounds like a promise, doesn’t it? And it sounds like a promise for the here-and-now, keeping our hearts and minds in perfect peace in this lifetime. But how many Christians today actually have that peace? Most of the Christians I’ve ever met are as anxious, fearful, and upset as everyone else. There is no extra measure of peace among Christians anywhere. And especially in today’s world of vocal funda-gelical bullshittitude being spouted everywhere, it seems they are among the LEAST peace-guided people in the country. Oh, what about health? Sickness happens in the body, in this lifetime. “Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and Lord shall raise him up, and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him.†(James 5.14-15) When Jesus sent out his disciples he instructed them to “heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, [and] cast out demons“ (Matt. 10.8). Healing sick people was supposed to be part of the job of the evangelists as they went about spreading the good news. But there is not a single Christian congregation today where there are not sick people regularly in attendance. Another unfilfilled promise. There are dozens of promises throughout the New Testament alone, addressed (supposedly) to believers in this lifetime. Dake says there are over 250 assorted promises to believers. Whatever. There has never been a single kept promise to believers in this lifetime. EVER. Every single apparent fulfilled promise can be shown to be a natural (not supernatural) occurrence. There is absolutely nothing beneficial about being a Christian, insofar as promises kept for them versus toward nonbelievers. Every single human being alive on the earth today, or in all of human history, has been subject to natural laws, and every benefit derived as come through natural means. Some sick people get well, and some sick people die, and there is no scientific data to support the notion that Christians experience health in a greater proportion that non-Christians. The only possible exception would be among members of those sects (such as Seventh-Day Adventists, and a few others) whose teachings include guidance on healthy eating, and their resulting health is a result of what and how they eat, not some divine intervention. You can examine all the promises of the Bible that apply to a person living in this lifetime (i.e., still alive, not already dead) and you will not find any honest, verifiable fulfilment of a single promise. So, if the promises that should be applied to this lifetime are not true, what reason is there to believe that the promise of the resurrection is true? In fact, the very foundation of the promise is Christ’s resurrection, and Paul says if the dead don’t rise, then Christ isn’t risen (I Cor 15). There is no historical proof that Jesus ever actually existed, much less rose from the dead after being crucified. Paul didn’t know anything about the man Jesus. The Christ he refers to is a mythic figure, and many scholars today recognize that Paul was not preaching about the Jesus of the Gospels. In fact, the Gospels were not written until AFTER Paul’s letters to the churches were circulated, and AFTER the legends had been established, in order to conform to the common myths of the day about a hero-savior. There were many, many such myths and legends back then. Plenty of risen-savior cults. Christianity just happens to be the one that killed off the rest and re-wrote history in their own way. Christianity is just an accident of survival, perpetuated by the gullible (of which I was once one). It’s all made up. It’s a story. The Promise of the Resurrection is just as real and true and verifiable as the promise of getting a quarter under your pillow from the Tooth Fairy. “Oh, but I really did get a quarter under my pillow!†yes, you probably did. So did I. But it wasn’t from some imaginary Tooth Fairy. Your parents put it there after you went to sleep. The entire death, burial, and resurrection story of Jesus is just as real as the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus. That’s all. And when you die, your body will decay, and you will have no consciousness about it at all because your brain will be dead. You won’t show up someplace else. You won’t look down from heaven upon all your loved ones. You won’t ask the angels to come and help those left behind. You won’t be hanging around the Pearly Gates to meet the rest of the family when they show up later. When you die, you will be dead. That’s all. And then this evening I get this response from a reader: So how do you know the soul doesn’t exist? How do you know that when you die, it is literally all over for you? On what personal experience can you base that conclusion? My feeling is you are equating religion with spiritual truth. What you are saying is if religion is false (using your above criteria to determine that), then all spiritual truths must likewise. So Native American traditions, Buddhist teachings, etc etc are all baloney because you have decided Christ didn’t exist and btw there are other statements in historic records that say he did exist whether he was literally who Christians are teaching he was. I don’t think we should base our spiritual beliefs on religion, which is someone else’s interpretation of what is, but rather on our own experiences and maybe those of people we trust. It might be you are right; and when it’s over it’s over, but you don’t have one bit more evidence for that then that there is a pearly gate somewhere with a god on a throne. It’s all speculation and based on our own experiences as to what we end up believing– until we die… Then we either know or it’s all over and we won’t care. Having had some past life stories not only my own but others, having had those in my life who do see ghosts, I think it’s not that easy to dismiss what is out there in the spirit realm. I am content to leave it a mystery. To me it doesn’t matter as the important thing is how we live our life– whatever the ultimate truth proves to be for the Universe. I'm not sure if I want to respond directly, point by point (which would seem resistant/defensive), or just blow it off (which would be rude). I'll probably mull it over a day or three and see what comes to mind. Obviously I'm not responsible for explaining someone else's experience, or interpreting someone else's belief about spirituality. I've been through all that, both the Christianity stuff as well as alternative spirituality, supernatural, ghosts and ouija boards, and so forth. I just see no reason today to interpret this world by means of interjecting or superimposing a layer of supernatural 'stuff' in order to make sense of this world. There's a very large part of this world I don't understand, but I gave up (quit, walked away, rejected) all the various supernatural/spiritual ways of interpreting things, and I trust that continued study of the evidence will offer explanations for nearly everything in this world. Personally, I am confident that the person named Jesus written about in the New Testament did not exist as a real person, but that there were several itinerant preachers of that time, and Jesus (the Hebrew version of it, I mean) was as common a name then as John or Bob is today. I don't believe there are non-biblical historical records verifying this particular person existed in any way, shape or form. Mostly, I don't care what other people believe, and it is (as she says) HOW a person lives that matters more than some of the spirituality and beliefs some people have. Thoughts? Comments? Opinions? If anyone wants to answer on the on my blog, feel free. I'll need to approve a post before it appears, but I'm liberal/generous about it. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 I've posted the only part that it worth refuting IMO... feel free to do with it what you will... since it's on your site I've sort of done a Decaf version of my posts here, so it lacks flavour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knitterman Posted March 24, 2008 Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 I've posted the only part that it worth refuting IMO... feel free to do with it what you will... since it's on your site I've sort of done a Decaf version of my posts here, so it lacks flavour... Thanks! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 No problem... BTW he's talking bollocks about Buddhism too... there is no 'soul' in Buddhist thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 It’s all made up. It’s a story. The Promise of the Resurrection is just as real and true and verifiable as the promise of getting a quarter under your pillow from the Tooth Fairy. “Oh, but I really did get a quarter under my pillow!†yes, you probably did. So did I. But it wasn’t from some imaginary Tooth Fairy. Your parents put it there after you went to sleep. The entire death, burial, and resurrection story of Jesus is just as real as the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus. That’s all. And when you die, your body will decay, and you will have no consciousness about it at all because your brain will be dead. You won’t show up someplace else. You won’t look down from heaven upon all your loved ones. You won’t ask the angels to come and help those left behind. You won’t be hanging around the Pearly Gates to meet the rest of the family when they show up later. When you die, you will be dead. That’s all. I agree it is all made up. If there were any truth in any religion, they would agree on many points of doctrine rather than fight to the death to prove their way is the correct way. The Christian concept of who we are and where we are going has been beaten into our minds over centuries of abuse at the hands of fine up-standing Christians who killed us for our own good. Many people who do not believe in Christianity have only the imagery of the here-after to dwell on because that is what they have been raised with. They have no other imagination of an after life and some of them live in guilt and fear because they do not believe what they have been told but yet, they have been told over the course of their lives that they are going to hell for not believing what they have been told. Guilt is a vicious cycle and it is the corner stone of religion that guarantees someone will be converted to support the church somewhere along the way. Without a concept of guilt, the church would collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 There is a TON of good reference material on godisimaginary.com Look it over if you need some inspiration for a response. I too have seen ghosts in my lifetime, yet I remain and atheist. My mother AND my father both had near death experiences, one saw jesus, the other went to hell. Do I believe them? Yes, they had no reason to lie. But I am still an atheist. Why? Well, there are rational explanations for them all. First off, the ghosts, could have been vivid dreams, petty maul runs in my family, and it is possible I had a vivid daydream while having a seizure. Also, without going into the whole story, it could have been some form of telepathy with a living person. (very questionable, but more likely then an actual ghost). The simplest most realistic answer is usually the correct answer. The NDEs? Well, there are documented cases of children having NDEs where they see cartoon caracters in the afterlife. Does this mean we should embrace "the smurfs" as a group of gods? No, it is more likely that the dieing mind constructs an afterlife experience based on the most profound inner feelings of expectation. As a rational thinker, we need to be open to new ideas and explainations of course, but we need to keep things in perspective. Though we don't know everything, we can use logic, and by overcoming the internal fear of death, we can look at events objectively. This person does not sound "fundy" rather someone with just an opinion. I think such a person would benefit from reading the above mentioned site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Even if ghosts do exist in a classical, M. R. James sense, it doesn't mean that God exists... It's like saying Unicorns must exist because manitees do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Even if ghosts do exist in a classical, M. R. James sense, it doesn't mean that God exists... It's like saying Unicorns must exist because manitees do... Narwhals. manitees are the excuse for mermaids (desperate ass sailors!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knitterman Posted March 24, 2008 Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 Even if ghosts do exist in a classical, M. R. James sense, it doesn't mean that God exists... It's like saying Unicorns must exist because manitees do... Narwhals. manitees are the excuse for mermaids (desperate ass sailors!) I once dated a sailor. if it's wet and wiggles, it's fair game for all. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Even if ghosts do exist in a classical, M. R. James sense, it doesn't mean that God exists... It's like saying Unicorns must exist because manitees do... Narwhals. manitees are the excuse for mermaids (desperate ass sailors!) with due respect, you're not going mistake a snaggle toothed whale for a horny horse... but dugdongs have cracking tits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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