At A Crossroads

[Manditag in AK]

Hi all,

 

I've been very stressed and busy recently-going 16 hours a day, sacrificing what time for myself I would normally get in order to move out on time.

 

Basically all this stress has a) made me sick, and forced me to slow down and look at why I've been so stressed.

 

Part of what I've realized is that I've been avoiding making the theism/atheism choice. My parents are Christians, and I've told my mom about my deconversion. I had agreed to attending a class this spring while attending one she was teaching at church last fall when I was still Christian, and reluctantly went through with it after deconverting around Christmas. The class ended this last week, and to thank my parents for helping me move I even attended church this last easter, even though I haven't gone in 2 months or so.

 

My husband, on the other hand, is a comfortable, positive atheist who holds that whether they are aware of it or not, ALL belief in God is a coping mechanism, a delusion created by the individual for various reasons.

 

After talking many months to him, I understand both sides of the fence, so to say, but am not sure where I feel most comfortable. And as I said, I've been avoiding it.

 

Frankly I feel most comfortable with some sort of belief in the spiritual, but I have always held that truth is more important than convenience. I don't see any good reason to belief in a christian type of active participating theistic god, there's just not enough real proof for me to feel comfortable with it, but I believe our self awareness, or spirit, is real, and that we're all connected, I cannot deny that spiritual experiences happen to people in most all religions (that I'm aware of). To clarify, spiritual experiences can be everything from correct intuitive hunches to sweeping feelings of 'oneness'.

 

That must be why some atheists think theists are silly.

 

So: the question becomes this: is it better to pursue a particular set of religious/philosophical ideals, and if so does it matter which one, or is there such a thing as a spiritual atheist? I don't need a god belief, but I do need a spiritual one. Lastly, and maybe not best put on this particular forum, should I just give up on all things spiritual?

 

I guess what I'm looking for is ideas on where I could find a philosophical home. Also, could you include a little as to why you went to your particular philosophy, probably the biggest thing I struggle with is feeling like it's okay, or I'm not sacrificing brain cells by disregarding atheism. Thanks so much you guys.

[florduh]

is there such a thing as a spiritual atheist? I don't need a god belief, but I do need a spiritual one.

Some Buddhists are atheists. It's kind of weird to "go shopping" for a philosophy. Study, think, and something will make sense for you. You say you "need" a spiritual belief, but you really just are still uncomfortable without one. Time will change everything for you. There is no hurry to label yourself.

 

- Chris

[Stephen_Richard_Webb]

As far as spiritual atheism is concerned, that may be a tough fit - first you have to clarify what you mean by spirit - typically the word in itself when used in philosphy has a supernatual conotation and therefore athiest tend to disregard it as fairy tale like. Mainly because the essence of spirit is unexplainable, and un-scientific - to me, the spirit in humans is like the wind, you can't see it but you know its there because you can feel it by intuition and furthermore you can see its effects [like the wind blowing the trees]. Its no wonder that the word inspire means to breathe in, and of course it is inspiration that drives us in our daily lives - no inspiration is like suffocation. Personally I am an elementist, I beleive that all we need to know exists in the core simplicity of the classical elements which our entire environment is composed of, after all; All that we are is the result of what we have thought, and all that we have thought is the result of what we have learned from our environment - just finding the simplicity of nature in it raw state is the most wonderful and enlightneing thing because it isnt concerned with good or evil, right or wrong - there is no conflist there, only perfect peace profound. -Stephen

[Manditag in AK]

as far as not labeling myself goes, I agree, and the only thing I know right now is that when I reach where I'm going I want to label myself by what I am, not what I'm not. So I might eventually call myself a realist or a freethinker but not an atheist. I have no problems with the term for other people, but for myself it's like someone coming up to me and asking 'who are you?' and me responding, 'well, I'm not a hippo.'

 

Stephen, I think that's a good definition. By spiritual I do not mean supernatural, I mean the energy in all living things. I loved the imagery in your post, and I never knew that's what inspiration meant, so thank you!

[pitchu]

Before I became comfortable with atheism, I went through a long time of feeling there was "Something."

 

And there was. What relieved me was discovering that every segment and dimension of the "Something" which I felt had an actual identity all its own, and that its specialness was in no way diminished by being identified and named:

 

A sense of belonging to and within the universe.

 

A gratitude for beauty.

 

An awareness of the fragility of my life, and life in general.

 

An appreciation of the pleasure of community.

 

Astonishment that I could create.

 

Love, desire, sorrow, empathy, wonder, peace...

 

And hundreds more such parts of the feeling of "Something" -- a feeling which was evoked by my merely being human.

[Legion]

...is there such a thing as a spiritual atheist? I don't need a god belief, but I do need a spiritual one.

I took a rinky-dink test the other day that said I was a fairly spiritual atheist. So clearly the designation has been thought of before. My question is... What does it mean for me to be a spiritual atheist? Maybe it's as simple as being quick to empathize and being full of compassion?

[BlueGiant]

Your deconversion has been pretty recent from what you have said above, and on top of that, if you've been pulling 16 hour workdays, I'd figure you're really tired. Among the pearls of wisdom (beautiful in the end but are built from an irritation) my Dad gave me was: "Never make a decision when you're tired."

 

It seems you want a solution to this T/A question, and fairly quickly, but why? Questioning and searching is a tough place to be, and finding answers, even moreso if you're looking for correct ones, is a rather time-consuming and long process. You are going to have to figure out what you perceive is true, and which perception works better for you, in this regard. Your husband is right, theism is a way of coping with the universe, a way of understanding. So is atheism. It is a part of your subjective interface to the objective reality around you, and specifically is how you compensate for being unable to perceive objective reality at its most fundamental.

 

As for my belief. I tend to maintain a very fluid definition of deity, and depending on what I am doing, I have been known to range from atheist to hard polytheist to pantheist to monist, and I have a tendency to use the God(ess)s as archetypes, a form of psychological shorthand when I am thinking or trying to convince myself of something, or at the same time call upon them as external entities and tap a bit of energy off of them. Changes based on the situation and my goals within it. Among other, what can seem strange, beliefs I hold, is that humans don't have a monopoly on spirits or souls, if you will, but that even machines can develop them after a time and a fashion (think about a well-loved car). Moreover, it works for me. I gathered my beliefs over the years mostly by looking at other belief systems and extracting the parts that line up with what I have observed in the world at large, the more elegantly, the better.

 

All I can say is don't be afraid of being wrong. If you're really looking, you'll figure it out sooner or later, and everyone is wrong at some point (around these parts, that Christianity was a good idea, if nothing else).

 

Does this help at all?

[Guest eejay]

Like some of the previous posters, I didn't immediately shed my god belief after leaving x-tianity. Walking away from the cults was easy, but the belief in god did continue for quite a long time. I just didn't believe that the bible god existed. Matter of fact I became a pagan for quite a while, and it was a belief system that was much more comforting that x-tianity. But when you really open your eyes to other things you start to see so many flaws in what most people believe. Then you begin to realize that if one religion is wrong, then another could be, and on and on. Eventually you do see that all religion was created by people and no one agrees with one another and the realization that they all could be wrong sets in. Sooner or later the lights get very bright, and you come to the conclusion that you don't need any of it, and if there really was a god out there, he/she/it would do a much better job making itself known if it really wanted our praise and worship. You will come to your own conclusions in time, so don't worry about having to make a dire decision right now. Just keep your mind open and read when you can because there is a lot of good information out there, that will help your choices easier.

[Vigile]

As a long time atheist I'd tell you you don't need to pressure yourself to make a choice. There are no rules to life. If you are stressed by the question, then shelve it for a while. If others in your life are pressuring you, ask them to back off and let you breathe.

 

Atheism isn't a choice. It's something you realize that you are after examining the evidence or lack thereof. If you are interested in examining the evidence, the by all means jump in with both feet. If you are not, then just live your life and be happy. Who cares? Right?

 

It took me 3-4 years following my deconversion to realize I was an atheist. It's not something you can just adopt overnight.

[Stephen_Richard_Webb]

...is there such a thing as a spiritual atheist? I don't need a god belief, but I do need a spiritual one.

I took a rinky-dink test the other day that said I was a fairly spiritual atheist. So clearly the designation has been thought of before. My question is... What does it mean for me to be a spiritual atheist? Maybe it's as simple as being quick to empathize and being full of compassion?

 

Great answer. Empathy, and Compassion are definately deeper faculties of the psychy - they are indeed sublime expressions of inspiration, that is - they are of the spirit of kindness and love.

[Stephen_Richard_Webb]

as far as not labeling myself goes, I agree, and the only thing I know right now is that when I reach where I'm going I want to label myself by what I am, not what I'm not. So I might eventually call myself a realist or a freethinker but not an atheist. I have no problems with the term for other people, but for myself it's like someone coming up to me and asking 'who are you?' and me responding, 'well, I'm not a hippo.'

 

Stephen, I think that's a good definition. By spiritual I do not mean supernatural, I mean the energy in all living things. I loved the imagery in your post, and I never knew that's what inspiration meant, so thank you!

 

You are very welcome, and my goal in the reply was to share with you a little peace, even if only for a moment - seems to be that you are under stress due to all that moving, but a more obvious source of your stress seems to be the expectations imposed on you, not only by others but also by your own kind heart - you can't please everyone and sometimes people get a little upset when you can't - don't worry about your parents expectations of you to come back to the fold of xianity insanity. Taking a personal inventory can be quite enlightening - just keep it simple, as simple as a morning rain in the summer - you'll know what to do, and when you're ready to do it. -Stephen

[R. S. Martin]

Before I became comfortable with atheism, I went through a long time of feeling there was "Something."

 

And there was. What relieved me was discovering that every segment and dimension of the "Something" which I felt had an actual identity all its own, and that its specialness was in no way diminished by being identified and named:

 

A sense of belonging to and within the universe.

 

A gratitude for beauty.

 

An awareness of the fragility of my life, and life in general.

 

An appreciation of the pleasure of community.

 

Astonishment that I could create.

 

Love, desire, sorrow, empathy, wonder, peace...

 

And hundreds more such parts of the feeling of "Something" -- a feeling which was evoked by my merely being human.

 

Pitchu, what a wonderful post. I bookmarked it so I can find it when/if this topic comes up again.

[R. S. Martin]

is there such a thing as a spiritual atheist?

 

I have definitely known people who have called themselves such. I'm not sure what is meant by "spiritual." I think in some cases it means a certain type of feelings, and in some cases perhaps a certain type of auditory or visual experience (seeing or hearing things) that are outside the regular sensory experience (not "real"). I would call myself a spiritual atheist except I think there are scientific explanations to prove that these things all begin and end in the human psyche. From anthropology I get the idea that this kind of experience is what religion is based on originally. When I compare it with the visions recorded in the Bible, I feel my ideas are strongly supported.

 

That's the best "objective data" I can provide in a nutshell. I can direct you to further information if you are interested. (Best to send me a pm if you're really serious about it because I can't promise to keep an eye on this thread; I just wander about and read what catches my eye.) Some really good answers have been given in this thread. I agree with what the others said about not to rushing to a decision. Nobody can tell you what to believe. Besides, we change and grow as we learn more about life.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

So: the question becomes this: is it better to pursue a particular set of religious/philosophical ideals, and if so does it matter which one, or is there such a thing as a spiritual atheist? I don't need a god belief, but I do need a spiritual one. Lastly, and maybe not best put on this particular forum, should I just give up on all things spiritual?

 

I guess what I'm looking for is ideas on where I could find a philosophical home. Also, could you include a little as to why you went to your particular philosophy, probably the biggest thing I struggle with is feeling like it's okay, or I'm not sacrificing brain cells by disregarding atheism. Thanks so much you guys.

 

 

If the subject of religions or philosophies interests you, why not just begin learning about them without committing to any of them at this point? There's no need to rush in this process, after all.

 

You don't need to disregard atheism by doing this, either. It's possible to keep those ideas you find convincing from atheism in mind but also explore different spiritual ideas at the same time.

 

Perhaps it would be helpful to start by asking yourself what "spirituality" means to you. Is it simply being good? Having concern for your fellow human beings and/or other living things on the planet? Does it necessarily include ideas about what happens after death, or could that simply remain unknown? Is it holidays and celebrations, or is it expressed for you in any particular activities?

 

 

As far as why I became a Hellenic Pagan and Chaote... for me it boils down to a combination of my experiences and different ideas that I find personally compelling. And yes, I readily acknowledge that I could be mistaken about the source of my experiences being divine, but I think it's reasonable to hold that idea as a real possibility when I consider all the details. Even if it is "all in my mind", there is another school of thought which acknowledges that the human mind is not *only* rational; the irrational and perhaps "archetypal" parts of the mind have real power and getting to know these, too, can be helpful.

 

But don't take my or anybody else's word for it. Explore for yourself and see what ends up resonating for you.

[Manditag in AK]

Due to all the posts, I’m going to pen a quick response to everyone, rather than being vague and saying a few general lines of thank you. Sorry it took me so long to get back to the thread, or gosh….I guess it was just a day. Maybe I just need to check the site more often!

 

 

Pitchu, I think you’re right about that ‘something’, it’s probably the last thing keeping me from having no problems with atheism, because I’ve been there, I KNOW that something….but just because it’s there doesn’t automatically mean it has xyz source attached to it. Those are good points to keep in mind, so thank you.

 

LR, I think you’re right about the terminology, I think that’s something I will have to ponder in the days, months, etc coming up….not only where am I headed but what does that terminology mean. I would imagine spiritual atheism would have a wide range of attributes to it, and I know that’s only one possible avenue on the atheistic lines I could take.

 

Blue Giant, That’s good advice, can I copyright it? But seriously, I think the need to all of a sudden start working to know where I am stems from being stressed, it’s like having one more thing on my shoulders that I’m trying to deal with. Also the point about being wrong is a good one, I feel like I was so wrong about Christianity, and that I need to make up for it and can best explain it to my mom if I find something that is ‘Right’, when part of the reason I long ago STARTED rejecting Christianity is that I don’t think any religion, spirituality, whateveryouwannacallit, IS 100% right. My husband always wanted to know how ANY all powerful deity could be contained in one book. So I think I just really need to slow down and practice trusting myself.

 

Eejay, that was like reading my own thoughts-that is exactly some of what I’ve been thinking….what makes any religions claims better than another one? If one is false, does that mean they all are? Further, if the history is false can the philosophy be worth pursuing? Is it worth pursuing all these man made religions in search of the divine? Did someone once have it right and if so who? anyway you get the idea.

 

Vigile-I liked what you said about atheism not being a choice, it’s something you just realize you are. That is how my husband was, and he’s never been happier with his ‘spiritual’ life. And your advice to shelf what stresses me is probably a good one, I am 10 times more likely to obsess over it until it obeys my command than to do something productive while it figures itself out.

 

Stephen- thanks for the encouragement, as well as the suggestions and ideas. They were all very welcomed.

 

Ruby Sera- Aha! That sums up perfectly a good part of my struggle previously, and a lot of how I see the ‘supernatural’ now-it begins and ends with the psyche. I just don’t think most people give the human brain enough credit.

 

Bird Lady-I have done a good deal of research on the philosophies that resonate with me the strongest, I guess I should just work on those, to begin with. I find I like best philosophies that make me feel good-not that was yummy chocolate good, but that was a beautiful sunset, or poem, good-I like things that make me think deeply and move me to act consciously. I really like your list of questions, I think I’ll paste it and use it as a guide, if you don’t mind.

[upstarter]

I can never be as deep as most of these people. But I loved what you said about not wanting to say, "I'm not a hippo". It's the issue I have always had with the label atheist. I am one certainly, but it doesn't describe me wholly. I guess really I am a humanist. That is the philosophy that sits best with the way I try to live my life. But try telling people you're a humanist... it takes a LONG time. Sometimes saying, "I'm not a hippo" is just enough of a conversation stopper that it saves time. LOL

 

Keep searching, your place will show itself.

 

Heather

[Manditag in AK]

I can relate to that. Some people are just too fun NOT to do things like that to. I think it's the shock factor. and sometimes all time allows for is the 'I'm not a hippo" response.

But because your post is so light anyway, the idea of me trying to call myself a humanist makes me laugh. I used to be a vegetarian. I wouldn't want to change and call myself a humanist.