Evolution_beyond Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Is it a fake? Or is there some doubt about this now? If you think it's a fake then how do you think it was made - and how do you account for the huge amount of knowledge the person had about human physiology and things like where the nails would have been placed, in direct contrast to a lot of the medieval art of the time? If you think the Turin shroud actually was the burial cloth of Jesus then how do you think those marks were made? Surely, even if you believe in the resurrection, it's really far-fetched to say that raditation from the resurrecting body somehow made those marks. Are you happy turning religion into a weird kind of science fiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Is it a fake? Or is there some doubt about this now? If you think it's a fake then how do you think it was made - and how do you account for the huge amount of knowledge the person had about human physiology and things like where the nails would have been placed, in direct contrast to a lot of the medieval art of the time? If you think the Turin shroud actually was the burial cloth of Jesus then how do you think those marks were made? Surely, even if you believe in the resurrection, it's really far-fetched to say that raditation from the resurrecting body somehow made those marks. Are you happy turning religion into a weird kind of science fiction? Fake or true, does not matter, is the guy really jeebus is the bigger question which is likely to be no.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 I'm surprised that this topic still is coming back. It's almost like those never-die-urban-legends that keep floating around. I don't have the links right now, but there's been plenty of investigation into this shroud and there's a lot to show that it is fake. Even written, historical documents, that say it's not real. (IIRC). The process to make it, I think, is to drench a statue (or a person?) in oil or some other fluid, and cover the shroud to leave the oil prints, then heat it up, or something like that. Maybe it's done the same was as invisible ink? Is it lemon juice or something? And then you just heat it up? Don't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 28, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted March 28, 2008 Proven fake, many times over. Saw somebody make one in a lab. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 you can work out where to place the nails simply by trying to hang a corpse. The dead weight tears through the hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 The single shroud comes from G.Matthew: 27:59 And Joseph took the body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and G.Mark: 15:46 And he bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. and even G.Luke: 23:53 And he took it down, and folding it in a linen cloth, he put it in a place cut in the rock for a dead body; and no one had ever been put in it. But also from G.Luke: 24:12 But Peter got up and went to the place where the body had been put, and looking in he saw nothing but the linen cloths, and he went to his house full of wonder at what had taken place. Finally, here's what G.John describes: 19:39 And Nicodemus came (he who had first come to Jesus by night) with a roll of myrrh and aloes mixed, about a hundred pounds. 40 Then they took the body of Jesus, folding linen about it with the spices, as is the way of the Jews when they put the dead to rest.... 20:5 And looking in, he saw the linen bands on the earth; but he did not go in, 6 Then Simon Peter came after him and went into the hole in the rock; and he saw the linen bands on the earth, 7 And the cloth, which had been round his head, not with the linen bands but rolled up in a place by itself. Linen bands and a cloth around his head. Not a giant whole body cloth. So going in he might have had a single linen cloth (unless you trust G.John) but coming out he apparently shredded the thing into strips (the equivalent of clawing at the coffin lid?) except for the piece around his head which he left intact. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 I'm surprised that this topic still is coming back. It's almost like those never-die-urban-legends that keep floating around. There was a TV program about it here in UK over Easter. That's what got me thinking about it. It was saying there might be some doubt about it being a forgery - blah, blah, blah - judging by what people have said here then it sounds like it had no actual scholarly validity and was just an attempt to help the poor ickle christians feel better about their stupid faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 It was saying there might be some doubt about it being a forgery - blah, blah, blah - judging by what people have said here then it sounds like it had no actual scholarly validity and was just an attempt to help the poor ickle christians feel better about their stupid faith. Of course there's doubt. Religious people always believe in the imaginary, and doubt the factual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 28, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted March 28, 2008 I actually had a fundy tell me several years ago that the shroud had to be a fake. If it were proven to be real, it would do away with the need for faith, and god wouldn't allow that because he wants us to have faith above all. Fundies do say the darndest things! - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonolithTMA Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 A Catholic friend of mine told me that they did DNA tests on the Eucharistic Miracle at Lanciano and found two things: 1) it was female DNA, which would make total sense because Jesus would only have the DNA of Mary and 2) the DNA matched DNA taken from the shroud of Turin. I immediately converted to Catholicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redadare Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Linen bands and a cloth around his head. Not a giant whole body cloth. EXACTLY End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Linen bands and a cloth around his head. Not a giant whole body cloth. EXACTLY End of story. Don't agree with me too quickly. According to the story he died about the 9th hour (3pm). So Joseph had to know this (add to this that Joseph would probably not expected jesus to die so quickly and it would taken time for this news to come to him since he wouldn't have just stood there from start to finish since that could be literally days and we're supposed to believe that Joseph was important and so he likely had other things to attend to), go to Pilate (Pilate didn't know and had to get verification of death), get permission, obtain the body, the spices (100lbs!), the linens and get this all prepped and put into a new tomb before sun down to stay within the law and he would want to stay clear of all this himself so he could stay ritually pure for the Passover feast. He would need a lot of people willing to do this, but since all of jesus' followers "abandoned" him (minus the women and "the one he loved"...and they didn't appear to help...nope just Joseph and maybe one more person did all this). It's a hard sell to think they managed to pull this all off in less than ~3 hours (remember early sunsets this time of year). A single shroud makes much more sense given the time restraints. Of course given the entire scenario as a whole it really amounts to a fiction anyhow. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redadare Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Of course given the entire scenario as a whole it really amounts to a fiction anyhow. The Roman Centurion at the time didn't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonolithTMA Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Of course given the entire scenario as a whole it really amounts to a fiction anyhow. The Roman Centurion at the time didn't think so. Well, seeing as he's part of the possibly fictitious story that would be a lot like me saying "Sam and Frodo sure didn't think The Lord of The Rings was fiction!" They were never documented outside of the books written about them and neither was the Roman Centurion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 The Roman Centurion at the time didn't think so. I'd be very interested in reading his testimony where he describes the process Joseph goes through. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Of course given the entire scenario as a whole it really amounts to a fiction anyhow. The Roman Centurion at the time didn't think so. Eeeeeeh... dude, what R U smokin'? ... Oh, wait. I think it maybe was your attempt of humor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts