Shame On Them, And Shame On Us

[♦ nivek ♦]

Shame on them, and shame on us

McClatchy Newspapers

by Joseph Galloway

 

"This week, the Iraq war claimed its 4,000th American killed in

action, but that sad and tragic milestone came as the war seems to

have slipped off the evening news, off the front pages and from the

minds of the American people. I suppose this benign neglect of so

important and damaging an event is combat fatigue on the part of the

public. No doubt the White House is happy to see Iraq shoved to a back

burner, just as all three presidential candidates are relieved to talk

about something else, anything else, but their half-baked ideas about

the war.

Shame on them, and shame on us, for such callous indifference

to the service, sacrifice and suffering of the families of the dead,

wounded and injured troops who've given so much for so little in

return." (03/27/08)

 

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/galloway/story/31672.html

[par4dcourse]

I don't think there's "callous indifference." I read, I heard, I cared. What to do? Our idiot in chief still maintains that this figment of his imagination was real and necessary (kinda like xtians, come to think of it).Since we won decisively years ago (remember 'mission accomplished'?) 4000 of our brave men and women dying trying to bring democracy to a region that's been at war since history has been written is a minor inconvienience.

George W. Bush is the worst thing to happen to this country since.......hell, I can't think of anything worse.

[florduh]

We bitched. We demonstrated. We voted. We wrote the politicians. Since the "system" doesn't work at all anymore, just what the fuck do we do?

 

Education is all I can think of. Educate the kids so they know how to say "NO" to blind patriotic fury at the behest of insane megalomaniac leadership. At least during Vietnam, some of us had the balls to just say "NO." We have young soldiers volunteering for second and third tours for Bush's wars. Weren't they taught anything?

 

It's not a popular opinion, but I blame the soldiers themselves for allowing Bush to have his way. They volunteered and continue to do so. Lots of them seem to just enjoy blowing shit up and killing this generation's "gooks."

 

Shame on them, too.

 

- Chris

[The-Captain]

Thats a hard idea to swallow Chris, but I think you have the right of it.

[par4dcourse]

Blind patriotism is still a form of blindness.

[woodsmoke]

Knowing a few people my own age who've enlisted in the military within the past few years, Chris, I hate to say you're right. Far too many of the ones I know, at least, quite honestly don't see anyone with brown skin as an actual human being--or at least not one of equal standing with all others.

[Guest eejay]

I agree with Par4 that Bush is the worst thing to happen to this country. He is a war criminal and a liar. Will he ever see punishment? I doubt it.

[Vigile]

I'm with you Chris. They volunteered and they are over there. The only ones I feel sorry for are the Iraqi people who don't have a choice and didn't ask for this.

 

I've felt that from the begining. Though I did feel a twinge for the kids I saw at SeaTac 4 years ago geared up and ready to go. They were all 17 and 18 and really were just kids. How the hell could they know any better?

[Robbobrob]

He goes from being sympathetic to the public, calling it "combat fatigue", to "callous indifference". Five years is a long time to deal with any situation....and over time you either adjust to the level of disquiet, or you go mad.

 

I think all the bumperstickers that say, "1-10-09" say it all. We are all just waiting.

 

 

******

 

Length of our Wars:

 

American Revolution: Start date April 19, 1775

British Surrender at Yorktown: October 19, 1781 - 2,314 days

 

War of 1812

Start: June 8, 1812

Treaty of Ghent: ratified & proclaimed - February 18, 1815 - 975 days

 

Mexican-American War

Hostilities start for cassus belli: April 24, 1846

Declaration of War by US: May 13, 1846 - 19 days

End: February 2, 1848 - 649 days

 

US Civil War

Fighting starts: April 12, 1861

Last Confederate forces to surrender: CSS Shenandoah November 4, 1865 - 1,667 days

 

World War I - US involvement to last treaty signed

Start: April 6, 1917

Armistice: November 11, 1918 - 584 days

 

World War II - US involvement

Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor: December 7, 1941

Japan surrenders to US: August 14, 1945 - 1,346 days

 

Korean War

Start: June 25, 1950

Armistice: July 27, 1953 - 1,128 days

 

Vietnam War - Official US involvement, although troops had been sent to Vietnam under Truman in 1950

Start: November 1, 1955

End: Signature of Foreign Assistance Act, ending all support of South Vietnam - December 30, 1974 - 6,999 days

 

1991 Gulf War

Start: Iraq invades Kuwait - August 2, 1990

Ceasefire: February 27, 1991 - 209 days

 

Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan component

Initial attack: September 11, 2001

Hostilities commence: October 7, 2001 - 26 days

Today: 2,390 days

 

Iraq War - Operation Iraqi Freedom

Congressional Authorization for the Use of Force: October 11, 2002

Invasion of Iraq: March 20, 2003 - 160 days

Today: 1,995

 

Only the Revolutionary War and Vietnam have been longer than Iraq.

[florduh]

I feel bad blaming the soldiers. They get screwed the most, but most don't seem to realize it. However, if they weren't so eager to volunteer to blow up Iraq (soon, Iran) and kill the brownskins, Bush's war would wind down.

 

One problem I see is that we have deified the soldier, and nobody wants to admit their son or daughter died in vain for the power and greed of the elite class. But that is the case. Our country needs to stop seeing the people inciting and prolonging wars based on lies as heroes, and that includes those who volunteer to do the dirty work. At least Blackwater ops are well paid. Our regular soldiers don't even get adequate medical care when they get home. I don't know if they just buy into the patriotic bullshit or enjoy the legally sanctioned murder and mayhem. I personally know some of the latter.

 

- Chris

[Legion]

Iraq War - Operation Iraqi Freedom

Congressional Authorization for the Use of Force: October 11, 2002

Yet somehow this is supposed to be all Bush's fault. Yeah right.

[florduh]

Iraq War - Operation Iraqi Freedom

Congressional Authorization for the Use of Force: October 11, 2002

Yet somehow this is supposed to be all Bush's fault. Yeah right.

 

Bush (W) is not entirely responsible for the initiation of the Iraq invasion because he gained support early on from people who trusted him, but as evidence mounted from many official sources (including some high-ranking military) and advisors, he would not admit any mistakes and doggedly "stayed the course."

 

Ultimately it was determined (officially) that there never were any WMDs, there were no Al Quaeda operatives in Iraq, and the abortion of our invasion simply deposed a dictator we had put there, and destroyed the country. Our troops are being attacked by many now jobless and homeless Iraqis who are paid by the terrorists who have moved in since the invasion.

 

George W., if it's really about the terrorists, then go where they are and kill them. Don't destroy Iraq and Iran (the next target) while propping up the despicable Saudis. It's George W. Bullshit.

 

- Chris

[par4dcourse]

Iraq War - Operation Iraqi Freedom

Congressional Authorization for the Use of Force: October 11, 2002

Yet somehow this is supposed to be all Bush's fault. Yeah right.

Oh c'mon lege. Irag is Bush and Cheney's bastard love child. In his childlike mind, he had to do something after 9-11, and Saddam mouthed off at the wrong time. He was going to war and coerced approval was just icing.

[Japedo]

I detest this war. I detest the PTB who sit with their surrounded security in their safety zones and roll the dice with the lives of people.

 

 

I hold elected officials responsible for this egregious monstrous war that has taken many lives on both ends of it. They hand down the orders and they also control the purse strings.

 

How easy it is to play the blame game. Not all people join the forces because of "blind fervor" and not all people join to "blow up Iraq/Iran" However I know the arm chair quarterbacks love to use their broad brushes to simplify everything as to conjure up some easy answer. Some do it out of a sense of duty, Others do it because they want to.

 

 

Soldiers do not have "power" in the military. The military is not run as a democracy, it is a dictatorship via Chain of command. They take an oath to defend the constitution, they don't get to exercise it. In fact during war time one could be killed for deserting or refusing orders.

 

FYI the person in my signature left the army after a tour in Afghanistan, he had issues with the killing aspect of war but felt strongly to serve his country and serve and save people scarred from war. He died last Saturday in Iraq by a roadside bomb, He served in the NH National guard, he was a Medic who wanted to lend his services to save the people over there from the scars of war.

 

Neither of my boys want to BLOW anything up either but want to join even with my begging and pleading that they don't. They both feel it is their duty to serve. My boys know Muslims and hold no ill will toward them.. these types of knee jerk sayings are so far off the mark it's just reverse propaganda that hold perhaps truth to a handful but is being applied to the majority. I know a lot of service people.. I have yet to meet one that joined to kill anyone or blow anyone up.

 

 

If anything it is "WE" the people who refuse time and time again to hold our elected officials accountable. We moan and bitch... write letters and participate in polls. If we want to blame someone... lets all take a hard look in the Mirror for allowing this war to get so out of hand. Every single person should have been fired on a national level. We The People here are uninformed and lazy, and would rather blame a party, a person, an enlisted, an officer and right on down the list. It's not my fault , it's yours... That attitude is exactly why we have the government we do today. This government is a reflection of it's people. Self serving... and irresponsible. Perhaps not individually, but definitely as a whole. I'm so pissed off at this country as a whole on every level I hardly have words. If I were to blame anyone it would be Everyone here who's casted a vote... and that includes those who cast the no-vote. We all have the power, yet we fuck it up everytime.

[florduh]

Japedo, I sympathize. I don't mean to imply every soldier has the same motives. What IS true is that as long as young people are caught up in the patriotic, serve my country lie, wars will continue for no good reason.

 

As I said earlier, We bitched. We demonstrated. We voted. We wrote the politicians. Since the "system" doesn't work at all anymore, just what the fuck do we do? Yes, our government is at the root cause and they are unstoppable, but regular middle and lower class citizens are VOLUNTEERING to do the dirty work. Why do they buy into it? Hasn't it been clearly shown what a crock this all is? Yet, they keep on "defending our country" from false enemies. Then the corrupt government we have can hold up these misguided soldiers as heroes we need to support and defend. Now we all need to support their sacrifice that they made for us. There is no draft as of now, so clearly the volunteers WANT to support this lie of a war for bogus reasons. They simply need to be educated in the fact that appeals to "patriotism" are one of the ways the elite control us. To point out the obvious error of this debacle only brings accusations of being unpatriotic from those vested in the bloodshed.

 

- Chris

[Guest Net Eng]

As I said earlier, We bitched. We demonstrated. We voted. We wrote the politicians. Since the "system" doesn't work at all anymore, just what the fuck do we do?

 

What do you do? You continue to demonstrate, vote and bitch. Your only other choice is revolution (which is not a bad idea considering the quality of our elected officials. Oh, wait. They were elected by us... bummer).

 

Yes, our government is at the root cause and they are unstoppable, but regular middle and lower class citizens are VOLUNTEERING to do the dirty work. Why do they buy into it? Hasn't it been clearly shown what a crock this all is? Yet, they keep on "defending our country" from false enemies.

 

Again the government elected by who? And as Legion pointed out Bush had help from the congress (who hold the purse strings). The focus really needs to stay where it belongs, our elected officials. This applies to both parties since both have proven themselves unwilling to hold the peoples interests higher than their own pocket books.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Japedo]

Japedo, I sympathize. I don't mean to imply every soldier has the same motives. What IS true is that as long as young people are caught up in the patriotic, serve my country lie, wars will continue for no good reason.

 

As I said earlier, We bitched. We demonstrated. We voted. We wrote the politicians. Since the "system" doesn't work at all anymore, just what the fuck do we do? Yes, our government is at the root cause and they are unstoppable, but regular middle and lower class citizens are VOLUNTEERING to do the dirty work. Why do they buy into it? Hasn't it been clearly shown what a crock this all is? Yet, they keep on "defending our country" from false enemies. Then the corrupt government we have can hold up these misguided soldiers as heroes we need to support and defend. Now we all need to support their sacrifice that they made for us. There is no draft as of now, so clearly the volunteers WANT to support this lie of a war for bogus reasons. They simply need to be educated in the fact that appeals to "patriotism" are one of the ways the elite control us. To point out the obvious error of this debacle only brings accusations of being unpatriotic from those vested in the bloodshed.

 

- Chris

 

 

 

I know you don't know me Florduh, but I assure you my boys are by no means "not educated" as to what bullshit this war is. Having said that,I have been anti-war since this bs started. I have never been quite about my disdain for this corrupt government, nor have I failed to discuss extensively the history of this war with them.

 

If no one joins you will have a draft.. make no mistake about that. Then what? Do you honestly think if no one joins that the US Government will just retreat? Common now... Not all enemies are false enemies either. Many of this countries "enemies" hold positions of power in this country. Not all people who serve in the Military are Neocons politically.

 

Every single person who voted to support this war NEEDS to lose by a landslide their positions of power. Yet people are blindly loyal to their selected "Tribe" of R/ D or Other.

 

 

Bullshit to the statement that the US Government holds up these soldiers as heroes, that's more of the peoples doing and the medias. The US Government doesn't have empathy or care about lives lost here.. not the citizens of the countries we are in and not our own men and women. Our men and women are in dire need for basic necessity's, do you honestly think the US Government gives two shits about that? As far as "heroes" Some are, some aren't.. most are just kids who have no concept of the reality of this monster war. Some are criminals that should serve jail for breaking the rules of war.. (such as torture) . Some are trying to do the right thing with what little they have to work with. It's like with anything. Not all military people are duped patriotic fools like you're portraying here. We can support our troops by bringing them home, I have always held that position as have many.

 

NOT all the Military is in Iraq... or Afghanistan, many are here.. many are in other parts of the world. Some kids see the service as the only way to get to college, 4 years enlisting for a promise of an education and a career in a field that they want to learn. Maybe it's the police, computers, engineering, rescuing and the like. The benefit of joining voluntarily is you can pick your career path. Not all Military is front lines combat, although I know many are painted that way. In a hard economy with hard times... some have no choice. Some see the service as a way "out" from their boring towns or from their parents watchful eye. Some it just comes down to a sense of duty.

[The-Captain]

One thing to remember is that there are still significant blocks of voters in support of the war. True its hard to find anyone that wont go with "the war has been mismanaged", but a lot of people are still in love with the idea. That is how these people stay in office, like or not they still have support.

 

Japedo, Chris, I think between the two of you we have a pretty good list of why people join the service. Ive known people serving for all the reasons you've mentioned.

 

Japedo, I do disagree with you on one point though, if people were to stop volunteering I think it would have an impact. There is no way in hell the government could institute the draft at this point and get away with it. Thats the kind of thing that starts revolutions. IMO this is not a war in defense of the nation it never has been no one who disagrees with it should feel obligated to join it.

[Japedo]

Japedo, I do disagree with you on one point though, if people were to stop volunteering I think it would have an impact. There is no way in hell the government could institute the draft at this point and get away with it. Thats the kind of thing that starts revolutions. IMO this is not a war in defense of the nation it never has been no one who disagrees with it should feel obligated to join it.

 

 

IMO A "Revolution" would never happen... we are far past that point. The "People" are out gunned and out manned. Most comply with gun laws and have everything licensed and are terrified of being accused of breaking the law. Once a group of people decide to overthrow the government.. they will be confronted with tanks and armed to the teeth Government employees suited up in riot gear, also armed with every ounce of gas, wepons, and so forth. (Take note of WACO to see an example) The people will be portrayed in the press as anti-government terrorist and the people not participating will not give two shits. It was only a small handful who dared to buck the system during the US Revolution, most people opted to just comply with the Brits. Just look at the attention span of the average American. We live by and large by sound bites and judge an entire situation by them.

 

Take note, Just about everyday people are killed on US Soil by state/ federal agencies/employees and the people by and large believe it's the "Perps" fault. Go read about someone being taserd /shot to death. Read about the women in the Airport who was killed while shackled to a bench... To few care... many of those that do care are not about to attach themselves to "extremists" for fear of being put on some sort of list.

 

Take note from the Brown case.... People that assisted them over taxes are now facing jail time and federal criminal charges. Who here is willing to give up their family's, Home and all the comforts that go with it.....? The only time people are encouraged to fight is when they have nothing left to lose, we are a far FAR cry from that in this Country. A Revolution won't happen, sure some might attempt it, but they will be painted as nut balls who are a danger to society. This is not the late 1700's. The press has enormous influence over the populace and how they think. Every US citizens is traced and tracked. Groups are monitored... Big brothers tentacles reach every home with a computer, tv, and phone. They reach every person with a SS Number, and have a free pass to declare anyone they want associated with the broadly defined terrorist activity's before they have their first "group' meeting.

[The-Captain]

A few riots then at the least. Something like that would bring the failure of freedom front and center. Even if Americans were oblivious the entire world might catch on.

 

Though come to think of it that did little good at Tiananmen Square.

 

Still better that we put democracy and freedom to the test, find out just how much or little we have.

[Japedo]

A few riots then at the least. Something like that would bring the failure of freedom front and center. Even if Americans were oblivious the entire world might catch on.

 

Though come to think of it that did little good at Tiananmen Square.

 

Still better that we put democracy and freedom to the test, find out just how much or little we have.

 

 

Doc, I can appreciate where you're coming from, I really can. Truth of the matter it's not freedom that will be tested via the PR the incident will receive ... just as it wasn't about "freedom" when Waco happened. The "suspected terrorists and their supporters " will be and painted as violent anarchists, anti-American loons by the press and the people will cheer on their incarceration/death. As I say, the only way anyone would be nuts enough to join this death sentence is when they have nothing left to lose. Everything today is about perception and sound bites. The majority don't look at the facts or the small print of rest of the story, to few care.

[pitchu]

There's more to read -- this is the first few paragraphs of the article -- but I think it clearly presents an American military drawn largely from the ranks of the economically disadvantaged. It's no wonder the economic policies of this administration are designed to further cripple the poor. It's the perfect way never to have to institute the draft. Drafting young Americans tends to cause people to get kicked out of office, let alone the marches and riots.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5110302528.html

Youths in Rural U.S. Are Drawn To Military

Recruits' Job Worries Outweigh War Fears

 

By Ann Scott Tyson

Washington Post Staff Writer

Friday, November 4, 2005; Page A01

 

As sustained combat in Iraq makes it harder than ever to fill the ranks of the all-volunteer force, newly released Pentagon demographic data show that the military is leaning heavily for recruits on economically depressed, rural areas where youths' need for jobs may outweigh the risks of going to war.

 

More than 44 percent of U.S. military recruits come from rural areas, Pentagon figures show. In contrast, 14 percent come from major cities. Youths living in the most sparsely populated Zip codes are 22 percent more likely to join the Army, with an opposite trend in cities. Regionally, most enlistees come from the South (40 percent) and West (24 percent).

 

Many of today's recruits are financially strapped, with nearly half coming from lower-middle-class to poor households, according to new Pentagon data based on Zip codes and census estimates of mean household income. Nearly two-thirds of Army recruits in 2004 came from counties in which median household income is below the U.S. median.

 

Such patterns are pronounced in such counties as Martinsville, Va., that supply the greatest number of enlistees in proportion to their youth populations. All of the Army's top 20 counties for recruiting had lower-than-national median incomes, 12 had higher poverty rates, and 16 were non-metropolitan, according to the National Priorities Project, a nonpartisan research group that analyzed 2004 recruiting data by Zip code.

 

"A lot of the high recruitment rates are in areas where there is not as much economic opportunity for young people," said Anita Dancs, research director for the NPP, based in Northampton, Mass.

[The-Captain]

A few riots then at the least. Something like that would bring the failure of freedom front and center. Even if Americans were oblivious the entire world might catch on.

 

Though come to think of it that did little good at Tiananmen Square.

 

Still better that we put democracy and freedom to the test, find out just how much or little we have.

 

 

Doc, I can appreciate where you're coming from, I really can. Truth of the matter it's not freedom that will be tested via the PR the incident will receive ... just as it wasn't about "freedom" when Waco happened. The "suspected terrorists and their supporters " will be and painted as violent anarchists, anti-American loons by the press and the people will cheer on their incarceration/death. As I say, the only way anyone would be nuts enough to join this death sentence is when they have nothing left to lose. Everything today is about perception and sound bites. The majority don't look at the facts or the small print of rest of the story, to few care.

 

I suppose I was really thinking of myself when I said that. If a draft were to be instituted I would protest, I think that a lot of other people would too. We would find out just how seriously the government takes its citizens, then I would know for myself just how much freedom I have. I was thinking more along the lines of passive resistance rather than armed militia stuff.

 

But as Pitchu pointed out a draft may never be needed.