crazy-tiger Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Little background first... I'm a member of an E-mail support group for people with anxiety problems. It's AOL-members only and, apart from myself, everyone is from the US. Recently, the topic of the 10 commandments in federal buildings came up. Not surprisingly, most of them couldn't understand why some people are against it. Even less surprisingly, the old "under God" and "In God we trust" arguments came out. (and at high speed ) When it got to the point that they were complaining that kids can no longer say the Pledge of Allegience because it's got the word "God" in it, I decided to step in and correct their mistaken knowledge. After pointing out that the Pledge is forcing children to accept religion when there will be some who are not religious was against the constitution, and that the Pledge hasn't been said in schools since 1953 anyway due to it being changed back then, they started to ask what I knew. I gave them a short list of what had been done to the Pledge, the money and the national motto and links to places where they could more information about it. The net result so far is... Out of the 48 members, none of them think it is fair to make children say the Pledge, none of them think that staff-led prayer should be allowed in schools, and all of them want the original Pledge back. (it being the Pledge the country was based on...) Oh, and 2 other members have come forward and declared that they are not Christians. (although, for some reason, they think that I am ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valgeir Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 When it got to the point that they were complaining that kids can no longer say the Pledge of Allegience because it's got the word "God" in it... Kids are forced to say the pledge everyday in every part of America I'm familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP1283 Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 True dat. Every morning we said the pledge. I actually had no problem with saying it. I was proud to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Yeah, as far as I know, the pledge is still recited daily, with God intact. This is why I haven't completely lost hope in this country. At least half of the people in this country can be reasonable. Even Bible-believing Christians will defend a secularized state in which all faiths are treated with the same regard. I think Michael Newdow was a genius for breaking the Bill of Rights down the way he did, into a free exercise clause and an establishment clause. It really makes it impossible for the fundies to argue against it. If you've ever heard him on talk radio, it's hilarious to listen to religions callers call in with the same crap, only to have Newdow knock 'em down with the same clarified line of reasoning every time. He never deviates or changes his approach. I think the majority of Americans would understand if you really broke it down to them that if the Christians establish religion in American politics, then they're really undermining their own faith. They basically put all their rights on the line, because they're making it majority rules. And even within Christianity, they wouldn't tolerate that. It's already quite obnoxious the ways fundies get their undies in a bundle over having their faith being treated "equally" with other faiths. That's not good enough for them, because they're faith isn't equal to Judaism or Islam. To a Christian, Christianity is correct and therefore should be given preferential treatment. ...as if other faiths don't think the exact same thing! And the problem is that you have the exact same problem within the sects of Christianity themselves. Each sect of Christianity thinks that it's the one true way and all the others are false. Well, if Christians won't tolerate each religion being treated equally, you better believe that they won't put up with each sect being treated equally either. All you'll need is one Mary statue erected outside a courthouse in a Catholic community, and the Baptists will go nuts. In fact, someone should do that... just to see how those ten commandment people react to it. In fact, let's make all courthouses look like Catholic cathedrals. Graven images everywhere! I would be interested to see if Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell start demanding that it be taken down. ...and under what justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 In Tennessee there is a law that every classroom must recite the Pledge each day. It was passed in the post-911 patriotic fervor. Our new principal was unaware of the law and we were not in compliance until some aunt of a student stuck her nose in. She called a congressman and brought the heat down. Next year we begin. As the morning announcement guy, it would ordinarily fall to me to read it over the intercom. But I refused. Student volunteers will read it while I roll my eyes and remain seated. I would gladly read it if it were still secular. In the second term, I will have a first block class for the first time ever. No more announcing after six years; I wonder why. This lucky class will see me reading the newspaper while the Pledge is being read. If people don't like it, they can shove the flag up their asses. It's not my fault that this issue is being pressed. Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 The last school I was at had three pledges..the nation, the state and the school. Everyone is told to stand. I do recall once, a child being told to put their hand over their heart. I stood there, leaning against the wall, saying nothing..and certainly not "putting my hand over my heart". I remained standing, because I already was. After the three pledges comes the "moment of silence." I usually miss the whole pledge ceremony by being in my office (though I can hear it over the speakers) I still remember prayer in schools. I know it was early 60's when it was removed, and I didn't start school until '66..but I remember it in '70. We also memorized the 23rd Psalm..and sang a song "Put Your Hand in the Hand"...guess we were behind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 In Tennessee there is a law that every classroom must recite the Pledge each day. It was passed in the post-911 patriotic fervor. Our new principal was unaware of the law and we were not in compliance until some aunt of a student stuck her nose in. She called a congressman and brought the heat down. Next year we begin. As the morning announcement guy, it would ordinarily fall to me to read it over the intercom. But I refused. Student volunteers will read it while I roll my eyes and remain seated. I would gladly read it if it were still secular. In the second term, I will have a first block class for the first time ever. No more announcing after six years; I wonder why. This lucky class will see me reading the newspaper while the Pledge is being read. If people don't like it, they can shove the flag up their asses. It's not my fault that this issue is being pressed. Rant over. Atta-boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 All you'll need is one Mary statue erected outside a courthouse in a Catholic community, and the Baptists will go nuts. In fact, someone should do that... just to see how those ten commandment people react to it. In fact, let's make all courthouses look like Catholic cathedrals. Graven images everywhere! I would be interested to see if Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell start demanding that it be taken down. ...and under what justification. That's a great idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 After pointing out that the Pledge is forcing children to accept religion when there will be some who are not religious was against the constitution, and that the Pledge hasn't been said in schools since 1953 anyway due to it being changed back then, they started to ask what I knew. I gave them a short list of what had been done to the Pledge, the money and the national motto and links to places where they could more information about it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Crazy Tiger, could you please post those links... if they are still conveniently at hand for you. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 Crazy Tiger, could you please post those links... if they are still conveniently at hand for you. Thanks. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, there's this one... http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067499 this one... http://www.restorethepledge.com/ and this one... http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets...d-we-trust.html There's a lot more info out there, it just takes a small amount of searching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatifidontwantausername? Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 As a student of the gloriously under-funded and out dated school systems of America I would like to cast my opinion amongst you adults. 1. The pledge is not legaly manditory, though there are many, many ways for it to still be manditory. (Peer pressure, lower grades, not being accepted to football teams, that sort of crap)(I live in Ohio, by the way... sorry Robear) 2. Any reasonably intelligent child knows that they don't need to say the pledge, plenty of other people do it for them or it is read over the speaker. 3. Also any somewhat intelligent child can simply leave out the phrase "under-god" if their concience is torn. Personaly I do not say the pledge, here are my reasons: I do not respect the leadership of this country, and owe said country no loyalty based on accident of birth. Yes, there was a time when I was fanaticaly loyal to America. America has changed or I have, either way in six years I am in Canada(Assuming they are still letting people leave). Also if anyone wants to drill me on all the people that died to give me the freedom not to say the pledge, go ahead. I know what they did for their country and I respect them. I honor their sacrifice in my own way, by preserving the freedoms I have against those who would take them from me. Look, I am not saying what is right or wrong. Just that I don't feel I should pledge my allegance to a cause that I no longer beleive in. I also feel that having children recite the pledge everyday is just one way to try and make them think that no matter what they owe Uncle Sam something, and I equate this with being brainwashed in Christianity. IF I get a reason to have faith in America again, I will most definatly stay. Until then I hope my plans work out. -Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokudo Ningyou Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Crazy Tiger, could you please post those links... if they are still conveniently at hand for you. Thanks. Here's a rundown: The original Pledge did not have "Under God" within it until, as CT said, 1953, when it was added to combat the fear of Communism; obviously, adding two words proved that America was superior to the godless Russian state. The Red Scare in 1919 that went hardcore after a mass mail bomb frenzy took off a maid's hands helped years beforehand. Also, in a twist you wouldn't expect, Teddy Roosevelt tried to get "In God We Trust" off our money. He wasn't an athiest; he was a devout Christian and a Republican. But as far as he was concerned, it was unconstitutional, and sacrilege to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Carrion Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Even were I required by law to recite a mindless pledge of allegiance to "my country" every morning I would refuse, regardless of whether it included religious references or not. Nationalism and nationalistic pride are no less snares for the unwary mind than religious faith is. It requires blind adherence to the ideal of "the nation" or "the state", and the frankly ludicrous belief that the intentions of those responsible for the regulation and arbitration of "your interests" as citizens are basically "honest" and "decent". Please. Politicans universally lie, whether they are British, American, French, Arabian or whatever. Rather than this mindless adherence to and imperative to the maintennance of the abstract "state", methinks its high time we started concentrating on the conditions of those individual entities which constitute it. The very fact that in certain American states young people are REQUIRED by law to recite an oath of allegiance every morning smacks of the worst kind of paranoid ideological conditioning. Were the country worth pledging one's self to body and soul, it would be self evidently so, and therefore a matter of choice, rather than of requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Too true CT... And if the 10 commandments are supposed to be the basis for the American legal system, why are only 2 of them actually illegal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Well, there's this one... http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067499 this one... http://www.restorethepledge.com/ and this one... http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets...d-we-trust.html <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Crazy-Tiger, those are quite convincing arguments. I'm sure I'll hear the other side's arguments when taking God off becomes a significant possibility. I'm curious to know if other countries put any remark about their God on their money, how about yours? Thanks for sharing those sites! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted July 12, 2005 Author Share Posted July 12, 2005 Crazy-Tiger, those are quite convincing arguments. I'm sure I'll hear the other side's arguments when taking God off becomes a significant possibility. I'm curious to know if other countries put any remark about their God on their money, how about yours? Thanks for sharing those sites! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know about other countries, but the UK has a traditional mention of God on it's coinage... Either "DEI GRATIA REGINA FIDEI DEFENSOR" in full, or abreviated to as little as "D.G.REG.F.D." (translated, it means "by the grace of God, Queen and Defender of the Faith") It's been there centuries, and is only there now as tradition, not as any part of a religious value... The notes have no mention of religion in any way, shape or form. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Personaly I do not say the pledge, here are my reasons: I do not respect the leadership of this country, and owe said country no loyalty based on accident of birth. Yes, there was a time when I was fanaticaly loyal to America. America has changed or I have, either way in six years I am in Canada(Assuming they are still letting people leave). Also if anyone wants to drill me on all the people that died to give me the freedom not to say the pledge, go ahead. I know what they did for their country and I respect them. I honor their sacrifice in my own way, by preserving the freedoms I have against those who would take them from me. Bravo Jake, I wish I was as mature and in control of my own mind as you at your age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Even were I required by law to recite a mindless pledge of allegiance to "my country" every morning I would refuse, regardless of whether it included religious references or not. Nationalism and nationalistic pride are no less snares for the unwary mind than religious faith is. It requires blind adherence to the ideal of "the nation" or "the state", and the frankly ludicrous belief that the intentions of those responsible for the regulation and arbitration of "your interests" as citizens are basically "honest" and "decent". Please. Politicans universally lie, whether they are British, American, French, Arabian or whatever. Rather than this mindless adherence to and imperative to the maintennance of the abstract "state", methinks its high time we started concentrating on the conditions of those individual entities which constitute it. The very fact that in certain American states young people are REQUIRED by law to recite an oath of allegiance every morning smacks of the worst kind of paranoid ideological conditioning. Were the country worth pledging one's self to body and soul, it would be self evidently so, and therefore a matter of choice, rather than of requirement. *rising from his chair clapping in standing ovation* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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