But what if you're WRONG!?

[webmdave]

Sent in by Philip

I've done it. I've gotten myself out of Christianity.

 

Now comes the hard part: letting go of YHWH altogether.

 

The only real problem I'm having with this has to do with this series of vows that I've made over the course of about two years -- absurd vows, having to do with my sexuality, my diet, how much money I spend: all leftovers from being a nervous Christian fearing I wasn't pious enough.

 

I've given up Jesus, because he wasn't the Messiah. But my timidness at finally giving up my vows has left me in a very awkward position as sort of a pseudo-Jew, still worrying whether or not Jewish god really does exist. If I can just get myself to break these vows, I'll be free. But this is the final threshold, and I don't ever want to look back if I can get past this.

 

I'm miserable, as this cognitive dissonance is tearing me apart: my rational mind telling me it's mystical nonsense, and my baser superstitious self who keeps saying "But what if you're WRONG!?"

 

Has anyone else come to a relatively similar point of leaving Christianity but circumstances have left you a bit of a Jew? Any ideas on how to finally hop off the edge?

 

tag: ex-jew, YHWH, ex-christian, bible, religious delusion, judgment, apostasy

 

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2008/04...oure-wrong.html

[wonderer]

Phillip,

 

Christianity is an addictive drug. If you stay away from it long enough, you can get clean. It's also a disease of the heart and mind, and you may need professional help to be completely cured of it. The more deeply you were brainwashed, the harder it is to let go of all of the guilt, fear and mind games. If you want to accelerate your recovery, it helps to lay it all out on the table and examine each and every chunk in a safe place. This is as safe a place as you'll find on the Internet, and most of the people here sincerely want to help. We're all coming from different places, and we run the gamut in age, ethnicity, socio-economic status, sexual orientation, and brand of Christianity with which we've been infected. We are also all over the place when it comes to our own recovery, from those who are just starting to try on the idea of getting free of their programming, to those who have fully recovered and are here just to help.

 

I understand what you're struggling with: You've managed to outrun the gentle carpenter's son, but then there's his dad, who's all-powerful, omniscient, vengeful, and perfectly OK with smiting the first-born sons of the unbelievers. All I can tell you is to try to relax, share each revelation as it comes to you, and we'll all try to ease your withdrawal symptoms. I'm living proof that even hardcore fundamentalists can be healed, but it takes time. You're going to feel crazy for some time to come, but the truth is that you've embarked on the path to sanity. It's just that the first part of the road is the smelly part.

 

 

Peace.

 

 

Rob

[SWIM]

But my timidness at finally giving up my vows has left me in a very awkward position as sort of a pseudo-Jew, still worrying whether or not Jewish god really does exist.

 

What the poster seems the most worried about is "pascal's wager" http://godisimaginary.com/i46.htm

 

Read that, then surf that site.

 

Also, you may be worring about "your word". Sometimes when we make promises or vows, we feel honor bound inside to honor them, no matter who or what the vow was made to. This is honorable, it means you can be trusted at your word. BUT, if your word is given to a fantasy or delusion, then really, that does not count.

 

Good luck.

[Guest Eylisha]

I understand this 'what if I'm wrong feeling very well but the more I look around at the beautiful ppl who are supposedly going to hell I am convinced that if I couldn't bear to see these lovely ppl in hell then if there were a god he would have to feel the same.

[hereticzero]

With multiple religions around the world, if one or all of them were wrong and christianity were the only way to god, don't you think god would have a way to tell everyone at the same time and in his own voice instead of using thousands of years and one voice at a time to get his message across? Look at christian history and how it shows the ruthlessness of the religion not only towards nonbelievers but believers as well are persecuted. Christianity is by no means the religion of god but the sick twisted imaginations of men.

[MonolithTMA]

If I'm wrong, then it's God's fault for not revealing himself to me.

[Coolhermit]

I swam through the sea of christianity like a fish swims in saltwater but does not taste of salt.

 

Eventually I realised that the religion was based solely on Saul/Paul's private revelation and special teachings - just like all the thousands of other cults with their teachers and prophets and messiahs down the centuries.

 

Funnily enough I then discovered that I am halachically Jewish - but I've no inclination to follow Judaism - in the Hebrew Bible, alongside all the weird hatred smite your enemy stuff there is described a god who is happy and willing to forgive and receive everyone - no blood sacrifices required. That god does not get a good write up - either here or in the Christian apologetic sites either.

 

So you can ignore that god or choose to hope in his reality.

 

Do your thing, my friend, but whatever you do and wherever you go in life, just be kind and loving.

[Ouroboros]

If God has to punish me for being wrong, then it's a proof it's a systemic fault. Blame can only be given to the one who make a rational choice based on complete and full knowledge and understanding. Since I potentially could be wrong, based on lack of data and I can't get the data I need, then I can't be blamed. So even if I'm wrong, the fault is not mine.

[Guest Rob Barnes]

The best response for the "what if you're wrong" question I have heard is from Richard Dawkins.

 

When directly asked this question he retorted and said (approximately) "what if I'm wrong? what if you're wrong? what if you get to heaven and meet Thor, or Posiedon, or Zeus, or Allah!!"

 

I thought this was great, and put's religious certainties quite beautifully in their place.

 

It is very very hard turning away from faith. It affects everything. At the end of the day I guess we have to ask ourselves what would we rather have? the false consolation of monotheistic religion, or the honest lucidity of free enquiry?

 

We apostates don't know everything. We don't have to pretend to. We just look at the world, learn from the wise and do the best we can.

 

I wish you the very best in your search.

 

Rob

[Coolhermit]

The weight of proof must be on those who posit a god. Since there is no objective/empirical proof that a god exists then those who claim one must answer all the questions of those who doubt.

 

I know that god exists but I make no attempts to prove his/her/its existence neither do I insist that anyone else agees with me and as there's no penalty accompanying unbelief no proof's needed from moil.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm coming across some good discussions these days, or maybe it's just that I'm at a place where I can look more deeply at the "what if" questions. What if I'm wrong? What if hell exists after all?

 

Two posts in this thread stand out to me:

 

HanSolo said:

If God has to punish me for being wrong, then it's a proof it's a systemic fault. Blame can only be given to the one who make a rational choice based on complete and full knowledge and understanding. Since I potentially could be wrong, based on lack of data and I can't get the data I need, then I can't be blamed. So even if I'm wrong, the fault is not mine.

 

I like that. So it's okay to be wrong, but don't let it be due to willful ignorance.

 

Rob Barnes said:

The best response for the "what if you're wrong" question I have heard is from Richard Dawkins.

 

When directly asked this question he retorted and said (approximately) "what if I'm wrong? what if you're wrong? what if you get to heaven and meet Thor, or Posiedon, or Zeus, or Allah!!"

 

Wow! That's bold. If that doesn't shake up the foundation of the god ego then nothing will.

 

Both these posts seem to show the difference between emotional "knowledge" of God and objective rational knowledge of what exists. What I get from these two posts it that if we want to follow objective rational knowledge as truth, we've got to hang in there till the heart learns to trust and follow. Much easier done than said, but when we know it's the way to go maybe with time the heart can trust.

 

Sometimes I also think it depends on a lot of other factors as to how fast we move through healing. Some people seem to do it inside a year. I read a study where a lot of people take more than ten years. A lot of people on here talk about very vivid teachings of hell and I think the teachings I got were mild and probably not as bad. However, I find I am not moving past it as fast as many people are. For us, hell was never talked about; it was an implicit part of reality. It was like the sky--you never talked about it because everyone just knew it was there. You arranged your life accordingly. Perhaps on a psychological level that is more inciduous than if the preacher rants and raves with vivid descriptions that cause night mares. At least you know what you're afraid of in that case.

 

I don't know--it's an evil monster whichever way you look at it. I cannot diminish something that causes night mares. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe it's just as inciduous if there aren't the vivid descriptions and fist poundings about fire and brimstone. There are dire warnings about lots of other stuff--with the not-so-subtle implication that a lake of fire awaits all who don't take the "other stuff" to heart.

[wonderer]

I don't know--it's an evil monster whichever way you look at it. I cannot diminish something that causes night mares. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe it's just as inciduous if there aren't the vivid descriptions and fist poundings about fire and brimstone. There are dire warnings about lots of other stuff--with the not-so-subtle implication that a lake of fire awaits all who don't take the "other stuff" to heart.

 

Hi Ruby,

 

The subtle brainwashing can be much more effective than Bible thumping. We are tribal/social animals, after all, and what our tribe takes for granted as truth becomes reality for the members of the tribe. Trying to be free of that brand of brainwashing requires that you turn your back on your own reality. That's a really tough row to hoe.

 

 

rob

[R. S. Martin]

I don't know--it's an evil monster whichever way you look at it. I cannot diminish something that causes night mares. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe it's just as inciduous if there aren't the vivid descriptions and fist poundings about fire and brimstone. There are dire warnings about lots of other stuff--with the not-so-subtle implication that a lake of fire awaits all who don't take the "other stuff" to heart.

 

Hi Ruby,

 

The subtle brainwashing can be much more effective than Bible thumping. We are tribal/social animals, after all, and what our tribe takes for granted as truth becomes reality for the members of the tribe. Trying to be free of that brand of brainwashing requires that you turn your back on your own reality. That's a really tough row to hoe.

 

 

rob

 

 

THAT'S IT!

 

I've been searching since Aug. 1999 for what "IT" is. The experience of leaving the horse and buggy church and joining the modern Mennonites was unlike anything I'd ever experienced in my life, or ever read about.

 

I've described it as severe identity crisis but there's more to it. Never ever in my entire life did I expect to leave the community, the culture. It was who I was born to be, who all my ancestors had been, who I expected to be for life and eternity. All I asked was for them to give me a life that was worth living. And they flatly refused. So I was obligated to seek outside the community. And contemplate the very real possibility of being forced to leave the church.

 

It was not something I could imagine happening yet with my brain I knew the possibility was very real that it could come to that.

 

And it did.

 

It was the very worst thing that ever happened to me. And that's saying a LOT.

 

It felt like jumping off the planet and not having any idea if there was a place to land.

 

Actually, part of that analogy comes from another person who went through a similar experience.

 

I can see now that "planet"="reality." And we jumped off--turned our backs on it. No wonder I could not identify with Tillich's Horror of NonBeing. I'd lived through it more than once and survived. He describes nonbeing as the ultimate horror, as something no human ever goes through. The analogies from real life that I identify with are things like the holocaust. War refugee comes close but survivors of the holocaust is what I identify with. Certain death--nonexistence--is ahead, yet there must be desperate denial. Then something happens and they escape. But reality as they had known it is no more. Neither that of the concentration camp nor that of life before the arrest, nor that of the long weary trek to the camp. War refugee can be very similar. Death is certain but somehow or other they escape and by some strange means they find themselves on a strange continent where none of the old rules of reality apply.

 

But the HUGE thing I share with exChristians that I do not share with war refugees or holocaust survivors is the factor of choice. I CHOSE to turn my back on reality. I CHOSE to "jump off the planet," to "turn my back on reality." They did not. All of them are victims in every sense of the word. I'm a victim, too, in the sense that I was born into a situation where apostasy was all but impossible. The thing is, apostasy was possible and I've been observing it ever since I can remember. People have been "leaving the church" ever since I can remember. I'm a first only in leaving religion altogether.

 

I didn't know what it felt like to leave the church because I never had a chance to talk with anyone about their experiences on it. Didn't know how to ask. After I left a few people talked to me. It seemed like nobody really experienced what I did. They left for religious reasons. I didn't. I left for--might it be called existential reasons? I wanted to either exist or die. I wasn't allowed to do either where I was. It was a living death and I couldn't handle it anymore.

 

Not a violent firey hell by any means, just a passive nonbeing, nonexistence. Just a blah day that is heavily overcast and foggy and neither hot nor cold, neither summer nor winter. Like I imagine the ancient Greek Hades. It drags on, and on, and on. And on, and on....There is such a thing as total meaninglessness. And that is what I was living. And damned for not loving.

 

Oops. Got way sidetracked here. This was supposed to be about what if I'm wrong. Well, I sure had MANY qualms about WHAT IF I'M WRONG?

 

All I knew for sure was that I felt much better deep down inside and something convinced me it had to mean something pretty important.

[wonderer]

But the HUGE thing I share with exChristians that I do not share with war refugees or holocaust survivors is the factor of choice. I CHOSE to turn my back on reality. I CHOSE to "jump off the planet," to "turn my back on reality." They did not. All of them are victims in every sense of the word. I'm a victim, too, in the sense that I was born into a situation where apostasy was all but impossible. The thing is, apostasy was possible and I've been observing it ever since I can remember. People have been "leaving the church" ever since I can remember. I'm a first only in leaving religion altogether.

 

Holy Cow, Ruby! That is some powerful stuff! Now I understand something about you that I couldn't quite put my finger on. What you and I and anyone who has been submerged in a theocracy has in common is that we have all accepted someone else's concept of reality as our own. When we do that, we go insane. We may not feel insane as long as we buy into it completely, because everyone else around us has bought into it as well. So, we're all crazy together, and as a result, we're all normal. Do you see what I mean? "Normal" is defined as thinking and behaving within a set of acceptable parameters as established by the society in which we live.

 

Once we start to question the tribal consensus, we begin to move toward healing and mental health. The problem is, every step we take in that direction is a step away from "normal," as far as the tribe is concerned. So, the healthier we become, the more alarmed the tribe gets, and the tighter they close ranks. At some point in the process, if we don't "come to our senses," the tribe has no choice but to protect itself in some way. That's where declaring someone a witch and burning her at the stake comes in handy.

 

At any rate, here you are. But just because you're outside that particular tribe doesn't mean you're home free. Now you have to build a new reality that is based on seeing yourself and the world for what it is. Meanwhile, you're in a sort of purgatory - neither here nor there. But take courage! Look at it as a golden opportunity to construct a fresh world that doesn't need to be based on exclusion, self-denial, self-delusion, lies, hypocrisy or fear.

 

By the way, just a note about the holocaust. Most of the Jews who died in those camps willingly got on the trains that took them to their deaths. I was born a 2nd generation Hungarian-American Jew. My entire family of over 50 people in Hungary (except for one cousin who looked Aryan and was taken in by a kind Catholic family) rode the train to Auschwitz. They all knew the stories and rumors about the trains, but they went anyway. Why? Because they just couldn't bring themselves to believe it. The whole idea was preposterous, that their own country could round them up and slaughter them. It was an idea that was simply too big to wrap their heads around. It had to be a mistake, and they were sure they could straighten it all out, once they got to the "reassignment" camp. But that's how tribes function, especially when religion is woven through it. The shaman/priest/rabbi caste determines what reality is, and then refuse to accept the evidence, even if it's staring them in the face. Then they lead the tribe off into insanity. Only my grant aunt survived.

 

Didn't mean to get morose there, but I just wanted to illustrate that just as often as not, victims cooperate with their persecutors. What matters is what happens once we realize it.

 

 

Peace.

 

 

Rob

[R. S. Martin]

Holy Cow, Ruby! That is some powerful stuff! Now I understand something about you that I couldn't quite put my finger on. What you and I and anyone who has been submerged in a theocracy has in common is that we have all accepted someone else's concept of reality as our own. When we do that, we go insane. We may not feel insane as long as we buy into it completely, because everyone else around us has bought into it as well. So, we're all crazy together, and as a result, we're all normal. Do you see what I mean? "Normal" is defined as thinking and behaving within a set of acceptable parameters as established by the society in which we live.

 

I see what you mean. You will hardly be surprised when I tell you that I didn't get to where I am without questioning authority. As I say in my avatar, I do my own thinking. In this case, yes, I know what you mean about the insanity of Christianity. However, I do not accept that Christians are of necessity insane. Bear with me a moment. I have known since infancy that people's inner realities are not all the same. What appears red to me might not appear red to you. What cheers me up might not cheer you up. Etc. In addition, I have been exposed to genuine malfunctioning brains since childhood as in developmentally challenged people, Alzheimers, general senility, and mental illness in which individuals saw and heard things that did not correspond with the "real world" that other people saw and heard. But they did not know that they saw and heard things others didn't see and hear.

 

THAT is what I think of when I hear the word insanity...Okay, it occurs to me to look the word up. Here is Answers.com:

1. Mental illness or derangement. No longer in scientific use.

 

2. Law.

 

a) Unsoundness of mind sufficient in the judgment of a civil court to render a person unfit to maintain a contractual or other legal relationship or to warrant commitment to a mental health facility.

 

In most criminal jurisdictions, a degree of mental malfunctioning sufficient to relieve the accused of legal responsibility for the act committed.

 

Those are the criteria by which I argue that Christians do not as a group qualify as insane. I recognize that religion can exacerbate mental illness and a batch of other ailments, but I know enough Christians to be perfectly sure that the vast majority do not fall into the category of insanity as described in either of those definitions.

 

3. a) Extreme foolishness; folly.

Something that is extremely foolish.

 

This is the ONLY criteria by which it is logically possibly to judge Christians as insane. However, foolishness is subjectively defined. One's culture may have much to do with it. Folly itself is relative to the situation, as I am sure you know. I read up on some of your posts. Last night I read your testimony about Cargo Cults where you talk about having experimented with all kinds of religion and halucigenics (sp?), that you've got quite a bit of education, that you used to be a minister. Maybe I'm getting my sources mixed up re which posts/threads gave me which info.

 

Thus, I reject the argument that Christians are insane. In addition, I have done enough reading and study of religion and spirituality in sociology, anthropology, and Christian theology (pretty much done with my MA) to conclude that it it logical for humans to conclude that there is "something more" "out there." I can direct you to literature if you're interested. More recently I have been introduced to the work of behavioural psychologist Michael Persinger who has proven--more or less--with high technology that it begins and ends in the human psyche. In other words, he has proven my argument that it is logical for humans to think there is something out there. It is far more real than imagination.

 

I have also talked with enough people on the individual level, in addition to observation from the anthropological/sociological perspective, to hypothesize that this neural activity that Persinger is experimenting with is stronger in some individuals than in others. I think this accounts for one shaman per tribe, one religious leader per community, etc. I think new religious movements or cults and megachurches are probably started and maintained by individuals who have high levels of this neural activity along with other personality traits such as, or including, natural charisma. Jesus, if he ever existed, must have been such a person. I have done very little formal study on this, but in my search for truth or reality, it addressed questions for me that needed to be addressed.

 

The formal study of theology was the very last thing on earth I wanted to do but life got me into a situation where it was practically the only viable option so I took it and found I loved it. I'm very glad I did. Now I can say I did a systematic search of Christian theology and the most sophistical Christian theologians failed to produce answers to my questions. (I know I've barely scratched the surface of what has been written the past two millenia but if the Christian faith is so simple that a child and uneducated slaves can understand it, I shouldn't have to search so hard.) In addition, I was introduced to a very different type of Christianity, and a very different view of God and the Bible, than I had been raised with. I had the wonderful opportunity to work very closely for several years with one of this world's most brilliant and insightful brains (DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME HE'S INSANE).

 

NO ONE can tell me I didn't seek or try hard enough. Oh sure the less intelligent tell me but I know they haven't a clue what they're talking about. Rather, a more common argument they use is that I'm looking for logic and faith is not logical, the "natural man versus spiritual knowledge argument." I think I can fix both of those with the "Buried Talent" parable but xians won't listen. I've been very disappointed that my brilliant prof does not go beyond a certain point, either. Can't he or won't he? Humans have intellectual limits and it's not at the same place for everyone.

 

Rather than charging insanity, the way I make sense of it is that people think the effects of the religious experience come from outside of themselves. In addition, humans have from time immemorial needed to make sense of the universe. Since science has pretty much mastered the latter in the past several centuries, yet religion won't go away, I have a very strong suspicion it is because of these inner experiences of a significant portion of the population (perhaps ten percent?--that's the inuitive hunch of a brain that does banking by intuitive hunches because it can't manage numbers so don't take it too seriously, though the intuitive hunches do work surprisingly well over the long term if I keep it really simple). I further think that perhaps tradition plays a major role for those who do not have these experiences, or that some emotional crisis brought on the religious experience for such a person who does not regularly experience them, and this may have happened in correspondence to prayer or some other "saving" action or incident. I think this agrees with what you say in one of your Cargo Cult posts re the impact of religion when people are feeling emotionally vulnerable.

 

Once we start to question the tribal consensus, we begin to move toward healing and mental health. The problem is, every step we take in that direction is a step away from "normal," as far as the tribe is concerned. So, the healthier we become, the more alarmed the tribe gets, and the tighter they close ranks. At some point in the process, if we don't "come to our senses," the tribe has no choice but to protect itself in some way. That's where declaring someone a witch and burning her at the stake comes in handy.

 

Hey thanks for affirming that. I think I was born with a question in my brain. The extremely crazy-making thing in my situation is that they hated it when I left. One would think they would just be glad to be rid of me but when I compare notes with others who left it seems I got more angry letters and phone calls by far than most people do. I got the message that I'm on the fast lane to hell, no questions asked. So I was totally unprepared in Sept. 2006 for the severe backlash of my family when they found out that I was investigating nonChristian beliefs. Can't get any badder than hell-bound, can you???

 

Apparently you can. Seems there's the good hell-bound folks and then there's the real devils. Fact of the matter is I didn't know I'd done anything bad until I got the cold shoulder, and then a really serious grilling along the lines of "how could the universe have come into being if there isn't a God"? And "could such a deep book as the Bible have been written were there no God?" Answer to the second question: Oh yes for sure. (I'm asking myself the question I've been asking since the first time I was allowed to read the Bible: What's so deep about it?) Answer to the first question: I don't have a science brain but I can find out what books you can read to find out if you're interested.

 

Cleaning out the pig pen or wiping up the dog's messes is more profitable than talking with people arguing from such premises. I'm sure they concluded the same about me.

 

At any rate, here you are. But just because you're outside that particular tribe doesn't mean you're home free. Now you have to build a new reality that is based on seeing yourself and the world for what it is. Meanwhile, you're in a sort of purgatory - neither here nor there. But take courage! Look at it as a golden opportunity to construct a fresh world that doesn't need to be based on exclusion, self-denial, self-delusion, lies, hypocrisy or fear.

 

Well on my say, Sir, as you may have figured out by now.

 

By the way, just a note about the holocaust. Most of the Jews who died in those camps willingly got on the trains that took them to their deaths. I was born a 2nd generation Hungarian-American Jew. My entire family of over 50 people in Hungary (except for one cousin who looked Aryan and was taken in by a kind Catholic family) rode the train to Auschwitz. They all knew the stories and rumors about the trains, but they went anyway. Why? Because they just couldn't bring themselves to believe it. The whole idea was preposterous, that their own country could round them up and slaughter them.

 

I can't believe it. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. These were twentieth century folk. They had seen the pogroms or whatever in Russia. They knew the European witch-burnings and religious persecutions of the Reformation.

 

However, when I read through to the end of your passage on the holocaust and the Jews there's another inconsistency I don't get.

 

It was an idea that was simply too big to wrap their heads around. It had to be a mistake, and they were sure they could straighten it all out, once they got to the "reassignment" camp. But that's how tribes function, especially when religion is woven through it. The shaman/priest/rabbi caste determines what reality is, and then refuse to accept the evidence, even if it's staring them in the face. Then they lead the tribe off into insanity. Only my grant aunt survived.

 

So who are you? If only one of your family survived and this one person was not a direct ancestor of yours....I don't understand....pulling our my calculating machine here. In one of your posts you say you're sixty years old--born in 1948 according to my calculator. Okay, you say you're second generation American. Auschwitz happened WW2, which ended about 1945. I'm not sure how generations are reckoned. You parent could have migrated right after WW2, arrived in the US as first generation....I guess that would be classified as immigrant or refugee. Are you saying your parent was born in the US? That would mean that your entire family was not at Auschwitz--only the ones who had not immigrated earlier. Have I got it right?

 

Didn't mean to get morose there, but I just wanted to illustrate that just as often as not, victims cooperate with their persecutors. What matters is what happens once we realize it.

 

I get your point but once I get the details straight it may be more meaningful. I'm curious how your great aunt escaped? And your parent if he/she was not part of the holocaust? Don't apologize for sharing that story. Sorry if I'm too critical but the details matter in this case and I'm just not clear on them. I grew up on Anabaptist persecution stories and unfortunately don't know any direct ancestors from Europe. It's been a good three centuries or so since "we" crossed the Atlantic and the history got lost I guess. My guess is if anybody knew a direct ancestor that got martyred they would practically worship the person. I've never heard of anybody who had a direct ancestor martyred. There are records of Anabaptist martyrs whose children were raised by family members still in the State Church. Possibly that explains it.

 

I'm thinking if the Jews had wanted to, they could have known about some of these persecutions and witch-burnings. And surely they would have known about the persecutions against their own people in Russia. It doesn't quite make sense that entire villages would have willingly and unwittingly boarded the trains to a rumored death. Humans can be awfully stupid but they're not this stupid...With so much at stake, there would logically be at least five to ten absolute dissenters to every hundred--and more would have followed their example with so much at stake. Some women would have just stood their ground and screamed NO. I KNOW they would. If the camps had not been their ONLY hope, they would not have boarded those trains--not every last one of them. That is my conviction. If you can provide evidence that proves that one or two families chose to stay behind in the villages--and were left to live in peace--that would change the picture. But I've read too many stories of the arrests to accept it readily.

 

That's just me questioning authority. Been doing that for quite some time now. Maybe you can see why my one sister was rather distressed when I told her that school was training me to do it better...

[wonderer]

Hi Ruby,

 

I don't have time to go through all of your points tonight, although I promise I will, eventually. Let me just hit the high points.

 

I use "insane" in the old-fashioned sense of the word: mentally ill. Christianity, taken as a whole, is a contradictory mishmash of paganism, Judaism and the personal opinions and delusions of Saul of Tarsus and a few other writers, embellished and edited over 2,000 years by a church that is extremely jealous of the power it wields and will stop at nothing to maintain that power. And it all, no matter what flavor of it you want to discuss, requires speaking to an imaginary father who is always there to punish you, through a sacrificial lamb (Jesus). So, carrying on conversations in one's head with an imaginary being who tells you what to do, or paying a priest or praying to a dead saint to intercede with your imaginary friend just seems, well, nuts to me.

 

And yes, I hold that people who seem educated and calm and logical and reasonable and intellectual, but still profess to believe in this imaginary friend, are just as wacko as the bible thumping, drooling snake handlers. Sorry. It's all the same thing. Christianity is a made-up concoction of a religion that won't withstand any sort of real scrutiny, and it's all based on a thrown together and hopelessly illogical book. Of course, what if I'm wrong? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Who am I? Sorry, I guess I'm supposed to write an essay about myself, but I haven't done that yet. I realize you might think I make things up as I go along. Don't blame you a bit. Of course, even after I write an essay about myself, you would have no way of knowing how truthful it was. Let's just say for the moment that I'm someone who was born a Jew, was converted to Christianity, fell away and into the whole 60's flower power thing, then came back, was "baptized in the holy spirit" in a Charismatic church, joined the assembly of God denomination, and become a youth minister. Now I'm free. I'm here to help people who are struggling with fear that is the legacy of their mental illness.

 

On the holocaust: reasonable people tend to put way too much credence in reason. The idea that people were being rounded up by the millions and burned in ovens wasn't reasonable, so therefore it couldn't be true. That's how totalitarian governments are able to control their populations: do it in a big way. Hide it in plain sight.

 

On the math, and (reading between the lines) whether or not I'm simply inventing what I'm telling you about my family: What is the point of having these conversations, if you're going to act precisely as my family did, and simply choose not to believe what someone is trying to share with you? What possible harm could it do to you to accept what I'm saying at face value? It's not as though I'm giving you a Word from the Lord that you should, I don't know, sell all of your possessions and give me the money.

 

My Grandfather and Grandmother left Hungary in 1917, when they were both 18, during the Bolshevik revolution, when Jews and their land and possessions were fair game for everyone. They came through Ellis Island and settled in NYC. All the rest of my family, all of my Great Aunts and Uncles, all of their children and cousins, stayed in Hungary.

 

Here's the bottom line: I don't expect anyone to believe anything I say without challenge. I state without reservation that I've spent 23 of the last 27 years getting free of a mental illness called "Christianity" (12 of them in weekly therapy) and the last 4 of those 27 years healed, finally. I'm happy and content and in good health. I have a great job, a great marriage, 5 smart and good-looking grown children, excellent friends and a nice home. I don't believe in a personal god of any kind. I don't believe in the garden of Eden or original sin, and therefore don't believe in the need for salvation, because there's nothing to be saved from. Since there's no need for salvation, there's no need for a sacrifice, and if no need for a sacrifice, there no need for a savior. If there's no need for a savior, then there's no need for a messiah, and therefore if there was an historical Jesus who deliberately went to Jerusalem to be crucified, then he was the original nut case who started Christianity, which has venerated that suicidal act for the past 2,000 years, which is, well, insane. An entire religion based on an act of self-delusional suicide.

 

But I digress...

 

If there's no such thing as original sin, then thre's no such thing as heaven or hell, and therefore nothing to be afraid of, and no eternal reward, either. The entire train of thought is bogus, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

 

I know my scriptures, and if I thought it would do any good, would be perfectly willing to duel any fundamentalist Christian, any time, any where, with the weapons of his or her choice. But having tried this, I already know it's a waste of time and energy. Why? Because at the heart of Christianity is a mental illness, and it's pointless to argue with people who should be getting therapy and taking Prozac.

 

 

So, what's it going to be, Ruby? Do you want to have your way with me, and pick my brain? It's a good brain.

 

 

 

 

Rob

[wonderer]

Sorry, Ruby, I forgot to answer one of your questions. My Great Aunt survived because she had a genius for sorting and organizing clothing. They made her wash and fold her children's clothing after they gassed them, as a test.

 

Rob

[pitchu]

To nobody in particular; to everybody in general, a reminder from the guidelines for this forum:

 

 

1. Please remember the main purpose of the site in your posts; to encourage those who have left Christianity or other religions. Post something encouraging! Some members will have chosen a different path than you did; please respect their journey and remember that we all choose different turns in the road. This is not the proper forum for you to criticize or make other condemnatory statements about the path they have currently chosen.