How Do You Know?

[Guest Eylisha]

O.k. I had an intrigueing idea this is for all you christians out there.

How can you be so sure you're right think about this what if we assumed Jesus to be the son of god and everything he taught to be the truth.

Because Jesus vouched for the old testament it must also be true and lets just say that Jesus's teachings were correctly documented ect ect.

so we are now assuming the old testament and Jesus's teachings to be true but he never foretold the writing of the apostles. He did say they would recieve the comforter or holy spirit. The same holy spirit that guided the guys driving the inquisition, the same holy spirit that all believers recieve today. are these ppl infallible when it comes to knowing gods will and interpreting his word.

Have you ever thought what if the apostles were a bunch of overconfident christians with too much faith in their understanding of god. (not that I'm suggesting that happens often). Basically what if everything that came after jesus's teachings were wrong.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I would think there could be serveral places along the way where the search for truth

may have jumped the tracks.

 

1: Jesus could have been correct but the disciples may have misunderstood.

2: The disciples may have understood correctly but their writings could have been altered.

3: The Bible could be accurate but perhaps our cultural conditioning prevents us from "getting it".

 

Or the whole thing could have been a big joke played on mankind by a grumpy ancient

deity who likes to mess around with mankind.

 

My recommendation?

 

Don't listen when people tell you that they "know for sure".

Instead, watch how they live - actions betray words.

[SWIM]

I would think there could be serveral places along the way where the search for truth

may have jumped the tracks.

 

1: Jesus could have been correct but the disciples may have misunderstood.

2: The disciples may have understood correctly but their writings could have been altered.

3: The Bible could be accurate but perhaps our cultural conditioning prevents us from "getting it".

 

Or the whole thing could have been a big joke played on mankind by a grumpy ancient

deity who likes to mess around with mankind.

 

Or we could open door number 5, there we find this little tidbit:

It was orchestrated and evolved to fulfill human need, and pad the pockets and bring power to those with greed. Indeed?

[R. S. Martin]

I would think there could be serveral places along the way where the search for truth

may have jumped the tracks.

 

1: Jesus could have been correct but the disciples may have misunderstood.

2: The disciples may have understood correctly but their writings could have been altered.

3: The Bible could be accurate but perhaps our cultural conditioning prevents us from "getting it".

 

Or the whole thing could have been a big joke played on mankind by a grumpy ancient

deity who likes to mess around with mankind.

 

My recommendation?

 

Don't listen when people tell you that they "know for sure".

Instead, watch how they live - actions betray words.

 

So I guess you're lying through your teeth. You sure sound like you're saying you "know for sure." You call yourself a "True Christian." How can anyone get more sure than that? You say not to listen to the words but look at the actions.

 

Well, on a forum all one has is the interplay of words. And yours make very little sense.

 

First of all you say the truth jumped tracks.

 

Then you check all the major points at which it might have "jumped tracks." You end up not knowing where it happened. You end up suggesting maybe the whole thing is just cultural conditioning, or maybe it's God playing tricks.

 

BUT...you call yourself a True Christian.

 

INCONSISTENCY!

 

RED HERRING!

 

WARNING!

 

SIGNS OF THE TIMES!

@#!SIRENS BLARING!#@

THE END IS UPON US!!!!!!

 

The True Christian hath spoken.

Alas! alas! to the earth and all its inhabitants. The True Christian cannot tell truth from untruth.

 

Woe unto us and our children forever and ever. Amen.

*@*

[Mad_Gerbil]

Or we could open door number 5, there we find this little tidbit:

It was orchestrated and evolved to fulfill human need, and pad the pockets and bring power to those with greed. Indeed?

 

That would be a very real possibility as well.

I'd appreciate it if you'd keep that one quiet though.... I'm trying to make a living here.

[Michael]

Don't listen when people tell you that they "know for sure".

Instead, watch how they live - actions betray words.

 

Hi Mad Gerbil,

what should this tell me?

Is it in the end about good deeds and not about faith? Can I only trust xians, that act and behave good? but what is good behavior? Can I trust xians with long hairs, that are listening to heavy metal? Are gay xians trustworthy? Can I trust a pastor that is divorced?

 

What kind of "actions" makes someone trustworthy? The answer leads you back to the "I know for sure" thinking.

[SWIM]

Or we could open door number 5, there we find this little tidbit:

It was orchestrated and evolved to fulfill human need, and pad the pockets and bring power to those with greed. Indeed?

 

That would be a very real possibility as well.

I'd appreciate it if you'd keep that one quiet though.... I'm trying to make a living here.

 

 

 

LOL Well, at least you have a sense of humor...

[Mad_Gerbil]

Don't listen when people tell you that they "know for sure".

Instead, watch how they live - actions betray words.

 

Hi Mad Gerbil,

what should this tell me?

Is it in the end about good deeds and not about faith? Can I only trust xians, that act and behave good? but what is good behavior? Can I trust xians with long hairs, that are listening to heavy metal? Are gay xians trustworthy? Can I trust a pastor that is divorced?

 

What kind of "actions" makes someone trustworthy? The answer leads you back to the "I know for sure" thinking.

 

Good question.

 

My answer comes from the perspective of someone disgusted with American culture where in politics & religion (and everything else) the focus seems to be on what a person says and not so much what they do, hence the term "Politically Correct". I've come to believe words are pretty meaningless - especially when not backed up by action.

 

As you've indicated, that doesn't answer all of our questions but I do think it gets us closer to identifying the real deal.

 

For example, I remember back when Katrina hit. There were all kinds of people running around my office yammering about how awful it was and how it was important to help out and all of that nonsense. That all said, I don't know anyone who actually donated money or actually went down there to help out. When I compare stated concern with actual actions what I get is that most people were actually more interested in going and seeing a movie that weekend rather then actually helping out in New Orleans.

 

That can lead to hyper-judgementalism, and I don't intend that.

My point is, why shoot ones mouth off about 'caring' when in fact there are no plans to actually do something about it.

Is it just to be heard saying the right things?

 

Meh.

[Michael]

My point is, why shoot ones mouth off about 'caring' when in fact there are no plans to actually do something about it.

Is it just to be heard saying the right things?

 

Meh.

 

Maybe it comforts you when I say that this mentality is spread all over the world. It was one point for me to leave church. The pastor was always concerned about new chairs, expensive pc´s and high professional music equipment. Just around the corner people were poor and homeless. The church never felt an urge to help, it was busy with praying and singing.

 

But I can not see the connection to the OP. The mentality you have mentioned is nothing specific xian. So it can not help me to find out the truth about god and his book.

[hereticzero]

O.k. I had an intrigueing idea this is for all you christians out there.

How can you be so sure you're right think about this what if we assumed Jesus to be the son of god and everything he taught to be the truth.

Because Jesus vouched for the old testament it must also be true and lets just say that Jesus's teachings were correctly documented ect ect.

so we are now assuming the old testament and Jesus's teachings to be true but he never foretold the writing of the apostles. He did say they would recieve the comforter or holy spirit. The same holy spirit that guided the guys driving the inquisition, the same holy spirit that all believers recieve today. are these ppl infallible when it comes to knowing gods will and interpreting his word.

Have you ever thought what if the apostles were a bunch of overconfident christians with too much faith in their understanding of god. (not that I'm suggesting that happens often). Basically what if everything that came after jesus's teachings were wrong.

Where do you find Jesus vouched for the Old Testament? I do not recall him teaching the law was true, only that it will not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Jesus made statements about OT that were kind of vague. I'm trying to search the babble to find the verses he used to vouch for the OT. Can you share some of these for me to review? I could argue with christians better on this subject if I knew what they were looking at.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Maybe it comforts you when I say that this mentality is spread all over the world. It was one point for me to leave church. The pastor was always concerned about new chairs, expensive pc´s and high professional music equipment. Just around the corner people were poor and homeless. The church never felt an urge to help, it was busy with praying and singing.

 

I think you've already begun to apply what I've suggested (before I suggested it).

 

I ran into the same problem about 20 years ago at a large fundy church I was attending in Chattanooga. They were always screaming about how they support '500 missionaries worldwide' but didn't have the time or resources to help a friend of mine who was in dire need. Things like that cause tiny little light bulbs to flicker on in the back on one's mind.

 

It was fun to apply that method to them.

It was less fun to apply the same method to myself.

 

But I can not see the connection to the OP. The mentality you have mentioned is nothing specific xian. So it can not help me to find out the truth about god and his book.

 

I think you've helped yourself quite a bit already.

You detected a fraud (a materialistic pastor) and you left the church.

My recommendation would be to find people who actually attempt to live what they say they believe.

 

That means if you want to understand materialism you should find a materialist and study his beliefs and what he does.

That means if you want to understand Christianity you should find someone following the words of Christ and study his beliefs and what he does.

 

Based on what I understand of materialism, you'll find the materialist making a deposit at his local bank or driving a BMW.

Based on what I understand of Christianity, you'll find the Christian (among others) helping the poor, visiting the sick, etc.

[florduh]

I don't know anyone who actually donated money or actually went down there to help out.

 

 

I do. Significantly, none were Christians. They make their sacrifices in the "mission field."

[Mad_Gerbil]

I don't know anyone who actually donated money or actually went down there to help out.

 

 

I do. Significantly, none were Christians. They make their sacrifices in the "mission field."

 

The difference between those who say they care and those that do they care.

I'd wager that the people who are actually making the real sacrifices in life are those who aren't talking about it.

They'd be a difficult group of people to identify.

[florduh]

I just always like to point out that many atheists save lives and property while many religious folks are wasting resources on "saving souls."

 

Just my pet peeve that Christians have the PR for doing good.

 

FWIW, the "Shroud of Gerbil" is awesome.

 

- Chris

[Neon Genesis]

That means if you want to understand Christianity you should find someone following the words of Christ and study his beliefs and what he does.

 

Based on what I understand of Christianity, you'll find the Christian (among others) helping the poor, visiting the sick, etc.

Ok, so you want us to find someone following the words of Christ and study their beliefs and what they do? So, who would be a good candidate for this study? Ah, I know! Let's study Jesus! Say, Jesus, are you out there in the world helping the poor, visiting the sick, etc? What's that you say, Jesus? You're up there in heaven on your fat ass while millions of innocent children are starving in middle Eastern countries? What's that you say, Jesus? You're too lazy to heal people yourself? But wait, Jesus, I thought you healed people all the time in the bible? What's that, Jesus? You're too lazy of an ass to do it now and would rather sit back and watch us do your dirty work for you? What's that you say, Jesus? You don't really believe anything you preach, either, like those "fake" Christians? Hmm, does that mean by Mad Gerbil's logic that you must not be a true follower of your words, Jesus? Hello, Jesus? Oh shit, he must have hung up because I'm not getting any answer from him, the bastard.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I just always like to point out that many atheists save lives and property while many religious folks are wasting resources on "saving souls."

 

Much of American Christianity (1) has defined faith in a way that serves the ego.

If you claim you gave a thirsty guy a glass of water I can 'one up' you by claiming I saved his soul.

 

Just my pet peeve that Christians have the PR for doing good.

 

Christians have two advantages when it comes to marketing.

1: We've been doing it for 2,000 years.

2: Most consumers claim to be Christian so we've got a base that has invested in our views (2).

 

FWIW, the "Shroud of Gerbil" is awesome.

 

Thanks.

There used to be a Christian running around here claiming the Shroud of Turin was proof of some sort.

He kinda bothered me with that.

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTES:

1: I'm not bagging on Americans. This is an international board and as an American I only can see it from that point of view.

2: People who purchased an iPod or an iPhone understand this marketing technique.

[The-Captain]

That means if you want to understand Christianity you should find someone following the words of Christ and study his beliefs and what he does.

 

I like what you're saying here, really I do. But words of Christ? What words are those? Do you mean following the words of the Gospels, sans the rest of the bible?

 

Oh and to add to your list of places where the Word could have gone wrong.. 5) Paul!!

[Mad_Gerbil]

I like what you're saying here, really I do. But words of Christ? What words are those? Do you mean following the words of the Gospels, sans the rest of the bible?

 

Well, the reason I threw in the materialist example is to make the point that if you are going to go after something then find people who are doing it already.

When it comes to 'following the words of Christ' you may define that any way you please and then go find out how that works in the real world with people who are actually doing it.

 

I think everyone is pretty much tired of words.... at least, I know I am.

 

Oh and to add to your list of places where the Word could have gone wrong.. 5) Paul!!

 

Paul is a crowd pleasing addition to the list.

[Neon Genesis]

Well, the reason I threw in the materialist example is to make the point that if you are going to go after something then find people who are doing it already.

When it comes to 'following the words of Christ' you may define that any way you please and then go find out how that works in the real world with people who are actually doing it.

So, then why isn't Jesus out there doing this himself? You've still been ignoring my post. Does Jesus not believe in his own words or does he?

[Ouroboros]

Based on what I understand of materialism, you'll find the materialist making a deposit at his local bank or driving a BMW.

Like the hyper-religious Pat Robertson?

 

Based on what I understand of Christianity, you'll find the Christian (among others) helping the poor, visiting the sick, etc.

Like the agnostic Bill Gates?

 

You see, the truth is that some people do good, and some people do things for themselves only, and my experience it does not matter if they're materialists, wicca, Christians, Buddhists, Realians or atheists. The underlying belief rarely makes the person good or bad, but the underlying ideology and understanding of the world, and most of all how much of developed empathy and sympathy these people have in their brain. There are plenty of examples of extremely rich and yet non-Christians that make huge contributions to society and wellfare, while on the other hand there are a lot of examples of famous and influential Christians that take the collection money and by $50,000 Rolex watches. So your understanding is basically a misunderstanding.

 

Secondly, being a materialist, does not automatically means a person is egocentric. Let me make a really crude and kind of vicious view of materialism and egotism here, think about if someone wants to support and build up ones own ego only, then this person wants to do things that builds and supports one ego! One way of doing that is to make one-self look good to others. And one way of doing that is to give truckload of money, help the poor and visiting the sick... A perfect example is the candidates for the election! They shake hands, visiti hospitals and so on, and don't tell me they do it only because they're so good hearted - since they didn't do it until they run for election - but they're doing it to look good. And going down that line of thought, most Christians do this too! A Christian visit the poor and sick, because it makes them look good to God! Eye servants! They serve their own interests, and they only fulfill their own selfish needs to gain some gold-stars in the "Book".

[Mad_Gerbil]

Well, the reason I threw in the materialist example is to make the point that if you are going to go after something then find people who are doing it already.

When it comes to 'following the words of Christ' you may define that any way you please and then go find out how that works in the real world with people who are actually doing it.

So, then why isn't Jesus out there doing this himself? You've still been ignoring my post. Does Jesus not believe in his own words or does he?

 

It isn't a matter of ignoring, rather it just seemed to me that you were upset.

I didn't want to stir the pOOpie - sometimes people need to just let go with huge rant.

I love rants.

 

Back to the topic:

Your post has the implied claim that you know what Jesus is doing right now.

I was wondering, how do you know what he is doing right now?

[Ouroboros]

Much of American Christianity (1) has defined faith in a way that serves the ego.

If you claim you gave a thirsty guy a glass of water I can 'one up' you by claiming I saved his soul.

That's very cool. You withhold the glass to give them a fictious "salvation". That is not helping someone that is poor, sick and needs help. Go and give them a miracle instead.

 

You would not consider me good hearted or moral, if I went to the sick in the hospital and told them "Y'all been saved from Styx, through the mighty power of Zeus!" Would you?

 

Just my pet peeve that Christians have the PR for doing good.

 

Christians have two advantages when it comes to marketing.

1: We've been doing it for 2,000 years.

2: Most consumers claim to be Christian so we've got a base that has invested in our views (2).

1000 years of the Christian marketing was a complete failure. And not to mention 3-500 years of wild witch hunt. How many innocent had to die because of lying and self-serving agents of the Church?

 

There are 2.2 billion Christians in the world, and about 2.1 billion Muslims. Numbers do not make right.

 

And if majority of Christians make something better, then why is there less crime and better health care in the socialized and extremely agnostic/atheistic Europe? I think the best health care is to be found on Iceland, and they have the largest number of agnostics. It does not compute...

[Mad_Gerbil]

HanSolo,

 

I don't see where our communication crossed.

I'm making no claims about materialists or Christians.

My only claim is that the truth about someone lies in moreso in their actions than in their words.

 

That would be true for anyone.

[Neon Genesis]

Duh, I don't know what Jesus is doing right now because I don't believe in Jesus, it's this little thing called a rhetorical question. I'm not claiming to know what Jesus is doing right now, but you sure as hell seem to be, and so I'm asking you what you think Jesus is doing right now and why he's letting innocent children starve to death, based on what you claim a follower of Christ is. Doesn't the bible say to ask and ye shall receive? So, why are there innocent children that are starving out there asking but not receiving anything? So, based on what you claim a follower of Christ is, then you are implying that Jesus is not following his own words and is not doing anything to help people since he's allowing suffering into the world.

[Neon Genesis]

HanSolo,

 

I don't see where our communication crossed.

I'm making no claims about materialists or Christians.

My only claim is that the truth about someone lies in moreso in their actions than in their words.

 

That would be true for anyone.

So, what the hell is this about?

Based on what I understand of materialism, you'll find the materialist making a deposit at his local bank or driving a BMW.

Based on what I understand of Christianity, you'll find the Christian (among others) helping the poor, visiting the sick, etc.