The Roaring Lion And Atheism

[Michael]

Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

 

And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

1. Peter 5:8-10

 

Hello,

 

I was wondering about this from time to time, so I thought there might be someone else who went through this. And I am sure, that many xians are thinking about this too.

 

Have you ever thought, that your doubts are from the devil and some kind of test? Have you ever thought, that people like Dawkins, Darwin and Hitchens are send by the devil to "devour" you? I know it is really a fucked up idea, but it is still working a little bit inside. This vers is a cruel psychological trap. You have either enough faith or your struggle is your own fault ( as a xian everything is your fault!).

 

My questions (xian thoughts welcome):

1. Why has the devil the power to gain the big piece of the cake (christ only has the "narrow road" and the devil a super highway)?

2. What excactly is "a little while"?

3. Why gives god his "beloved" son, so that "all people might be saved", and than he let his children be tested to fall away from faith? Is he destroying the work of christ? Are people saved by accepting christ or "having a strong faith"?

4. What can I do with those thoughts, that "atheism is a dark and dangerous tool of the devil"?

 

I know...many questions. Maybe someone can devour my confusion.

 

 

 

 

p.s. I am still taking the bible to serious

[Kuroikaze]

I thought about this a lot during my deconversion.

 

I finally decided that if I couldn't trust my own thoughts I couldn't logically trust anything.

[Vigile]

It's just a failsafe to keep sheep from asking questions.

 

Some claims are just so ridiculous that you just can't take them seriously. I understand the hold this stuff has on one who is still looking at the world through a christian paradigm as I was once there. To the rest of us though it's just so obviously silly to think that disbelief in an egomaniac constitutes some type of sin so horrible that it deserves everlasting punishment that it is laughable. Especially when you consider that Peter is claiming that the devil has the power to decieve one so thoroughly.

 

Think about it, reasonable people don't even consider disbelief a crime. Yet biblegod not only considers it a crime worthy of torture that lasts all eternity, he made you so weak and the devil so strong that you can be influenced without your even knowing so and after all this, he still will torture you for all eternity just for the sin of following your own conscience.

 

It's not only stupid, it's repugnant.

[Vigile]

Actually, when you really think about this, this passage was likely written in at a late date by church elders who took an elite position of keeping the flock quiet and unquestioning.

 

Forward a couple of millenia and you have ignorant sheep actually meditating on this passage wondering about its meaning and praying that god keeps them safe from the evil lions and wolves.

 

It's all just so pitiful that people can be be played the fool like this. It's like watching a 3 yo who truly believes in Santa worrying about being naughty or nice. Adults sit back and smile at his naivete, yet those same adults have also been played by those snickering at them from the grave.

 

Sorry to make light of this Michael. I really do understand what it is like to be in your shoes. I'm just hoping to give you a glimpse forward into mine and see what the world looks like after you have had a chance to think for yourself for a while.

[SWIM]

Have you ever thought, that your doubts are from the devil and some kind of test? Have you ever thought, that people like Dawkins, Darwin and Hitchens are send by the devil to "devour" you?

 

Nope. Unless of course, the deebil dont mind folks not believing in HIM as well. Lack of belief in god is pretty much always walking hand in hand with lack of belief in the devil too, so what would be the point?

 

Anyway, most people shed the religion due to a realization that they have been ignoring "common sense" too long, and decide to start thinking for themselves. Unless the devil is 1000 times smarter then god, AND actually exists, the odds of this are so low it's non-existant...

[Japedo]

This vers is a cruel psychological trap. You have either enough faith or your struggle is your own fault ( as a xian everything is your fault!).

 

My questions (xian thoughts welcome):

1. Why has the devil the power to gain the big piece of the cake (christ only has the "narrow road" and the devil a super highway)?

2. What excactly is "a little while"?

3. Why gives god his "beloved" son, so that "all people might be saved", and than he let his children be tested to fall away from faith? Is he destroying the work of christ? Are people saved by accepting christ or "having a strong faith"?

4. What can I do with those thoughts, that "atheism is a dark and dangerous tool of the devil"?

 

I know...many questions. Maybe someone can devour my confusion.

 

 

 

 

p.s. I am still taking the bible to serious

 

 

I agree you're still taking the bible to serious. That being said I'll take a crack at your questions.

 

1) There is no devil. Only men behind the curtain keeping you emotionally hostage. If people are to afraid to "seek God" then they will never find him. The church wishes that you refrain from seeking and asking for real answers. They paint any sort of seeking as sinning therefore people will refuse to look and see nothing but a sham. They hope you blindly believe and faithfully fill your duty of 10% of your income.

 

It is tantamount to looking back and viewing the Egyptians. Doing odd customs to please their gods, thinking of them getting ready for the afterlife and hoping they don't get sent to the underworld.

 

Or the Greeks who feared the 5 rivers of Hades.

 

1- Acheron - the river of woe;

2- Cocytus - the river of lamentation;

3- Phlegethon - the river of fire;

4- Lethe - the river of forgetfulness;

5- Styx - the river of hate

 

Just update their silly superstitions to today's thinking... it's all the same. Hell is a early pagan concept.. it is no different then believing in Anubis or Charon.

 

Death is a powerful tool that cults use to sway people emotionally. Everyone must face it, Most everyone fears it. What better tool then to use a great fear of the unknown to dupe people into their will.

 

 

 

2) Their little while is until you die. There is no time limit and they can stretch the word to mean whatever they want. Such as... What may be a lifetime to you is but a flash for god. There is no little while, it's more double speak and manipulation. Nothing is clearly defined so everything can mean anything they want to twist it into.

 

3) What helped me on my path for truth was to first understand there is a strong difference between faith and truth. There is a fork in the road and you'll have to pick one to stay on. Again, it always helped me to view the ancient religions/cults to realize just how stupid the faith shtick is. Can you imagine stoning someone for having seizures believing they were filled with dark spirits? Honestly, the religious have always been uneducated, they also cling to that lack of education (blind faith even if it goes against evidence) and defend it with their lives. They detest anything that will take away their land of make believe. Living in the land of make believe anything is possible. Gods, demons, lightness, darkness. Life has simple answers, death doesn't happen and so on.

 

How can one test their faith if they are not allowed to question?

 

How can one find the truth if they are not allowed to seek truth?

 

How come the one true god is so weak that he can't withstand some struggling non-perfect human asking hard questions?

 

Who are the people cowering in the light of the truth? It's the one's that use emotional blackmail and emotional abuse to control the masses.

 

How bad is the sin of disbelief? Do you believe the Greek gods will punish you because you believe they are a form of mythology? Of course in this light the question is near silly, but as Vigile pointed out it is how many of us view the Christian dogma.

 

 

4) Knowledge is power. Breaking out of emotional slavery of a god that you'll never make happy, hating yourself because that faith just isn't strong enough, and self abuse and strong feelings of being a failure because you dared ask questions. Doesn't the god of the bible tell us to look for truth? Seek and ye shall find? You shall know them by their fruits? Many verses like this are strongly contradicted by the cult. If the truth was so simple you wouldn't be punished for looking for answers.

 

If god was all knowing he would know the truth and wouldn't punish people for looking for answers. Even if they happened to miss the mark, or be to lazy. A Just god would not torture and maim people just for believing wrong, or testing their beliefs. If we as mere humans believe it's immoral to sentence someone to cruel and usual punishment, why would we follow a god who does just that? If we as mere humans want peace, happiness, and humility, why do we follow a god who is tribal, demanding, sick, twisted, and who has the biggest ego? Looking at the perspective of things I could never follow a god who kills innocent people to feed his own blood thirsty ego. To prove to one tribe that he's better then all the rest. What's better about that? This so called Devil, how many human lives has he boasted about 'wiping out' in his book? The god of the buybull is a monster, he's as evil as his minions like to believe the world is *IF* He were to exist. He's a tribal god for a tribal people. The gods will always reflects tho's who are in powers will... Another clue it's bullshit.

 

Lastly, Remember this. For every year you have been instilled and programed to fear, it will probably take numerous years to deprogram that fear. Emotions are a strong motivator, and they are easy to manipulate by emotional abuser professionals who know how to capitalize on peoples weaknesses and self doubt. The best we can do is rationally try to deprogram our fear.

 

 

I wish you much luck on what ever path you choose to take!

[florduh]

Vigile nailed it - it's a failsafe to keep you from asking questions.

 

I've said it before, but the Bible is a cleverly crafted tool of control where the believer cannot win.

 

When things don't make sense it just means you don't understand the mind of God. No matter what things may look like, God has a plan for you. Trust and have faith. Let nothing deter you from continuing to believe this bullshit or you will suffer eternal damnation just for thinking clearly.

 

- Chris

[R. S. Martin]

Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

 

And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

1. Peter 5:8-10

 

Hello,

 

I was wondering about this from time to time, so I thought there might be someone else who went through this. And I am sure, that many xians are thinking about this too.

 

Have you ever thought, that your doubts are from the devil and some kind of test? Have you ever thought, that people like Dawkins, Darwin and Hitchens are send by the devil to "devour" you? I know it is really a fucked up idea, but it is still working a little bit inside. This vers is a cruel psychological trap. You have either enough faith or your struggle is your own fault ( as a xian everything is your fault!).

 

Your English is really good but your German accent comes through and that makes you seem like "my people." My first language is Pennsylvania German and I grew up with Martin Luther's Bible. The verses you quote were part of many a sermon and everyday life. I always heard that doubts were bad but I never believed that questions were bad. I did not know that questions=doubts. I believed that questions=love of understanding and truth, which we were told to seek. I was also told very firmly that all liars go to hell. This told me that if I say, "I believe that I am saved through the shed blood of Christ" when I don't understand what my sin is and when I don't understand how Jesus' death can save people, then I am lying. And lying is a terrible evil.

 

That lying is evil can be proved. But that people are sinners and need to be saved when the opposite is proved everyday--that seemed like a lie.

 

And now that I'm "saved from religion," I do struggle with "doubts" about "what if I'm wrong." If doubts are evil, and if God is truth, I think perhaps we here are on the right track and xians have it all backwards and wrong. And what we have to do is hold onto what we know is right and eventually our hearts will learn to trust. I think that is the basic meaning of those verses in Peter.

 

I know, this is all so backward to what we were taught but maybe we were taught wrong. It sure felt like it all my life. I feel like I finally found what fits with reality. Let's look at the rest of your questions.

 

My questions (xian thoughts welcome):

1. Why has the devil the power to gain the big piece of the cake (christ only has the "narrow road" and the devil a super highway)?

2. What excactly is "a little while"?

3. Why gives god his "beloved" son, so that "all people might be saved", and than he let his children be tested to fall away from faith? Is he destroying the work of christ? Are people saved by accepting christ or "having a strong faith"?

4. What can I do with those thoughts, that "atheism is a dark and dangerous tool of the devil"?

 

QUESTION #1. Look at it this way. There's the emotions and there's the intellect. Both are powerful in their own way. But the overlap, the narrow strip of the psyche where the two cooperate, is extra-powerful. I trust only truth that both the emotions and the intellect agree to. And then I like when this truth is backed up with empirical research by others. That makes for a pretty narrow road. Not the narrow road the xians are talking about, I assure you, but who says they're right? They're going by emotional power only so far as I can tell.

 

QUESTION #2. A little while??? A thousand years are with the Lord as one day and one day is with the Lord as a thousand years. I'm sure you know that old line. And that's not one bit helpful. What works for me in times of serious stress and doubt is living one day at a time, dealing with one item or one minute, at a time. Eating the cake, or whole wheat loaf of bread, or whatever, one bite at a time. Don't "wait for the Lord" because we've waited long enough and he never shows up. But victory over difficulty does come to those who persevere and tackle difficulties one bit at a time.

 

QUESTION #3. The redeeming work of Christ, etc. Doesn't work for me. First we'd have to be sinners and in need of being saved. Second, the plan of salvation would have to make sense and work. Dead bodies don't save spiritual beings. Things don't work that way. The spiritual descends into matter, matter does not evolve into spirit. Not according to any philosophy that I have yet seen. I just don't get it. But I do understand something about human nature. And it seems humans are good deep down if only love can connect with this goodness. To hell with christ and his redeeming work.

 

QUESTION #4. What can I do with those thoughts, that "atheism is a dark and dangerous tool of the devil"? Say: Get thee behind me, Satan, and stay there! If you dare come out I'll confront thee with rational thought. One of the things you will have to do is prove to me that you are real. And you will have to do better than make me see a vision of horned devils, or get into a car accident, or lose my child to death. Those things happen all the time and are not proof of your existence.

 

I know...many questions. Maybe someone can devour my confusion.

 

This takes time. The heart does not trust easily.

 

p.s. I am still taking the bible to serious

 

I'd put it this way: You are brave enough and honest enough to confront your fears and work through the issues. That is to be commended. Hang in there.

[Michael]

Thanks to all of you for your friendly replies. I guess I will read them again from time to time.

 

I already made a good step toward atheism.

My problem is (or better:It becomes a problem when you are a xian), that I want to understand things. I want to understand xianity and salvation and all this stuff, but again: It is an emotional religion, not a logical one. This entire religion makes no sense at all and I am sure I can spent eternity with trying to understand it. I have already spent too much time on this stuff.

[Deva]

My problem is (or better:It becomes a problem when you are a xian), that I want to understand things. I want to understand xianity and salvation and all this stuff, but again: It is an emotional religion, not a logical one. This entire religion makes no sense at all and I am sure I can spent eternity with trying to understand it. I have already spent too much time on this stuff.

 

 

I think that in general wanting to understand things is an admirable trait. Human beings are by nature curious unless their mental faculties have been destroyed by something like xtianity. But unfortunately xtianity and "salvation" are only understandable within their own framework. You have to step outside that whole framework to see it as it is. It is purely man made, it is not God's word. You cannot apply logic to it, although many throughout history have tried. But those that have tried have always worked within that framework.

 

By framework I mean their own parameters and definition of reality.

 

Does this make sense?

[florduh]

Thanks to all of you for your friendly replies. I guess I will read them again from time to time.

 

I already made a good step toward atheism.

My problem is (or better:It becomes a problem when you are a xian), that I want to understand things. I want to understand xianity and salvation and all this stuff, but again: It is an emotional religion, not a logical one. This entire religion makes no sense at all and I am sure I can spent eternity with trying to understand it. I have already spent too much time on this stuff.

 

 

Atheism isn't a goal to be achieved. You just look at the evidence and your own experience and conclusions will be reached.

 

Religion makes no sense in a rational perspective, but relies on an emotional hook of some sort. The Bible in particular cannot be understood rationally. It creates its own reality and internal logic, and even that is poorly done. Not only does it disagree with observable reality and history, it has its own internal conflicts.

 

Yes, you've probably already wasted enough time trying to make sense of the senseless.

 

- Chris

[Michael]

But unfortunately xtianity and "salvation" are only understandable within their own framework.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Makes perfect sense.

 

 

Religion makes no sense in a rational perspective, but relies on an emotional hook of some sort. The Bible in particular cannot be understood rationally. It creates its own reality and internal logic, and even that is poorly done.

 

I will print this out and put it in my diary.

 

 

p.s. I do not know how to quote more than one post. Is it possible?

[The-Captain]

p.s. I do not know how to quote more than one post. Is it possible?

 

See where it says quote with a + sign, next to reply? Press that button and it will turn red with a - symbol, the quote is now selected. Do the same to any posts you want to quote then press the "add reply" button. All the quotes will be in your text box ready to go.

[Michael]

p.s. I do not know how to quote more than one post. Is it possible?

 

 

See where it says quote with a + sign, next to reply? Press that button and it will turn red with a - symbol, the quote is now selected. Do the same to any posts you want to quote then press the "add reply" button. All the quotes will be in your text box ready to go.

 

 

It is working. Thank you.

[chefranden]

p.s. I do not know how to quote more than one post. Is it possible?

 

See where it says quote with a + sign, next to reply? Press that button and it will turn red with a - symbol, the quote is now selected. Do the same to any posts you want to quote then press the "add reply" button. All the quotes will be in your text box ready to go.

 

Thanks I never knew what that damn button was for.

[sojourner]

HI

 

I dont tend to view the roaring lion as an entity if you will but ego

 

my own ego trying to overpower me because of its constant hunger for power, attention and such. Now that can be applicable to others in that some folks come to you led by ego and want to overpower you with their own thoughts and views. I just try and recognize its the same ego in all, we are all the same. I tend to try and ignore the one within me and it seems to take its power away, focusing on it seems to empower it more. As to others a soft answer often turns away wrath and if that wont work there is always a swift kick with high heels. lol

 

sojourner

[Michael]

Hi sojourner,

 

I admire your way of utilizing the bible for your spiritual life.

 

To me this book is burned. If it fails to be gods word, than I now better books to read and learn from, although it is a religious "classic". Have you ever looked at the bible the way you do now, or did you had a time when you have read it literally?

[sojourner]

Hi sojourner,

 

I admire your way of utilizing the bible for your spiritual life.

 

To me this book is burned. If it fails to be gods word, than I now better books to read and learn from, although it is a religious "classic". Have you ever looked at the bible the way you do now, or did you had a time when you have read it literally?

 

Hi Michael

 

Ive goen thru so many ways of reading the bible, yes from literalism to spiritualizing it

 

hey if it doesnt do anything but bring negative energy, fear, condemnation and such to me anyone is better off without it and focusing on where they can find strength for their journey

 

sojourner

[Legion]

Gracious Sojourner I am curious. Do you think all ego is bad? It seems to me that it must be there for a reason, it must fulfill some function.

[sojourner]

Gracious Sojourner I am curious. Do you think all ego is bad? It seems to me that it must be there for a reason, it must fulfill some function.

 

Hi Legion,

 

I try not to see it as bad

 

I think if its recognized then it can be an asset

if it is unrecognized it can be a liability

 

but that is just where I am at right now, my views are always subject to change on a dime haha

[Michael]

hey if it doesnt do anything but bring negative energy, fear, condemnation and such to me anyone is better off without it and focusing on where they can find strength for their journey

 

sojourner

 

 

I like the expression "journey", because for me it implies adventure and fun. Maybe in a few years I grab this book again and find something different.

Thanks for your post.

[florduh]

Madame M, I could worship you.

 

Well done.

 

- Chris

[florduh]

Shit. All gods are the same. I thought you were different, M.

[florduh]

We'll talk tomorrow, Madame. I have a cat to paint.

 

- Chris