Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Satanism And Biblical Origins


Michael

Recommended Posts

Yesterday I discovered some old "killing joke" songs. I always loved their music. Then I became a xian, so I could no longer listen to a "satanic" band. I thought about satanism again and now I wonder if there is any biblical origin to satanism.

The stuff I coul find in the bible was:

1. God created satan

2. Satan got thrown out of heaven

3. Some weird stuff in the revelation of john

4. The story of job

 

How could satanists and xians design some kind of "church" out of it? How could they make satan to someone godlike, although he was just a created being (I thought satan was gods little helper)? Why the xian fear of satanism and how could satanist make up an entire believe system out of the few biblical verses?

 

It is not that I believe all the stuff, I just wonder what the fuss was all about during my xian time.

 

Many thanks in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it interesting that atheists/agnostics are oft times labeled as "loving" satan. Why is it that the simple conclusion that "if you don't believe in god, and or, the xtain god, you must therefore not only "believe" in santa errr I mean satan, but love him/it too?, is drawn?

 

I have spoken with luke-warm xtians in real life before about their belief. The more intellectual the xtian is, I have found the LESS they think about it.

 

This is, imo, because they know serious though on the issue will destroy their belief. And some don't believe, and in really listening, you will discover they are actually non-believer in disguise.

 

The True™ believers seem to be the ones that hold to a satan belief as well. However, there are many xtains that don't believe in satan, because of the inability to accept the injustice of the whole "hell forever" concept.

 

Adding a "satan" to a religious belief, is like adding a flag to the person, this flag says, "Scared, non-thinking, in denial person here".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always identified very clearly with what Anton LaVey was trying to get across to people. We are human beings with flesh and we're experiencing a material universe for a reason. If i am, in essence, a spiritual being having a human experience (which I believe) then why the heck shouldn't i enjoy all the benefits while I'm here? Can't I be spiritual when I return to being a spirit? Can't I fornicate in the meantime?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who says spiritual beings can't fornicate? Mary got porked by the holy spook!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, the Nephilim were angels fornicating with easy earth chicks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it interesting that atheists/agnostics are oft times labeled as "loving" satan. Why is it that the simple conclusion that "if you don't believe in god, and or, the xtain god, you must therefore not only "believe" in santa errr I mean satan, but love him/it too?, is drawn?

 

To me everything outside xianity was connected to satan. Every music, movies, small talk, book etc. that would not lead to jesus, woul lead away from him, so it must have been from the devil.

 

Again, I can not see the biblical foundation for the believe, that satan is godlike. So why should they create an anti-god? Did they try to explain all the evil in the world, because the alternative would have been to say, that god srewed up everything? Or just scare tactics again?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael, I confess I don't know what your question is. I thought you used to be a minister. Didn't you get a formal education for that? Come to think of it, some churches don't educate their ministers, so I guess I don't know about your situation. I was assuming you had a seminary education. I know the people training for the ministry at the seminary where I have been studying would probably have learned how to find the answers to the questions you seem to be asking. That is why I'm not sure what your question really is.

 

Can you read the Bible in its original languages? Do you know how to do word studies using Bible Dictionaries and Commentaries? I understand you're in Germany. I don't know what is available to you. All my education has been in English and the above is the strategy I would use to get at the answers you seem to be seeking. But maybe I don't understand your questions.

 

You ask:

 

So why should they create an anti-god? Did they try to explain all the evil in the world, because the alternative would have been to say, that god srewed up everything?

 

Michael, have read the ancient Gnostics such as the Hag Hammadi Library? Some of them address the issue of god screwing up and demanding exclusive worship. They think he was an inferior god but didn't know it. I know of at least one Gnostic study that was originally written in German and then translated into English. Not sure of the German author's name...Hans Jonas?

 

Okay, I checked Amazon. Hans Jonas seems to have written German books and also on Gnostics. I'm not finding what I thought I was looking for but maybe you can find something if you're interested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael, I confess I don't know what your question is. I thought you used to be a minister. Didn't you get a formal education for that? Come to think of it, some churches don't educate their ministers, so I guess I don't know about your situation. I was assuming you had a seminary education. I know the people training for the ministry at the seminary where I have been studying would probably have learned how to find the answers to the questions you seem to be asking. That is why I'm not sure what your question really is.

 

Can you read the Bible in its original languages? Do you know how to do word studies using Bible Dictionaries and Commentaries? I understand you're in Germany. I don't know what is available to you. All my education has been in English and the above is the strategy I would use to get at the answers you seem to be seeking. But maybe I don't understand your questions.

 

You ask:

 

So why should they create an anti-god? Did they try to explain all the evil in the world, because the alternative would have been to say, that god srewed up everything?

 

Michael, have read the ancient Gnostics such as the Hag Hammadi Library? Some of them address the issue of god screwing up and demanding exclusive worship. They think he was an inferior god but didn't know it. I know of at least one Gnostic study that was originally written in German and then translated into English. Not sure of the German author's name...Hans Jonas?

 

Okay, I checked Amazon. Hans Jonas seems to have written German books and also on Gnostics. I'm not finding what I thought I was looking for but maybe you can find something if you're interested.

 

 

Hi Ruby,

 

I am sorry to dissapoint you.

I was leading worship times and cell group meetings, but without any formal training. No one expected that. No seminary education, just the training to listen carefully to the pastor and repeat it on wednesday nights. We "studied" the bible as a group. The xian group we were living with had no formal trainig for their people. You just took the bible verses you need to support your ideas.

My wife and I applied for a missionary school and hoped to get a deeper knowledge, but they rejected our request. So no knowledge of hebrew or greek and I just begin to read the bibel more carefully. I was used to charismatic groups so my education was always more emotional ("Can you feel the spirit moving?", "Gods love is poured out in this room." "I feel jesus is with us now.") Maybe you have noticed that already. The biggest problems I have with my deconversion are emotional problems.

 

And regarding my question: In the churches I knew, satan was the root of all evil. They described him as a powerfull force, the antagonist of god. That was one reason why I rejected bands like "Killng joke" and "backward masking"and esoteric books and black candles and and and. There was a big fear of satanism. But today I wonder why, because I can not find enough stuff in the bible to support this view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Traditionally Satanists are supposed to believe the way they do because of the passage in the new testament where Jesus is taken up onto a high mountain and shown all the kingdoms of the world.

 

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

 

And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

(KJV)

 

The implication being of course, that wordly things were in His Infernal Majesty's gift, including absolute power, which then and now, was the only thing for which an elitist would sell his soul. Satanists were supposed to have thought Jesus a fool for refusing their master's offer, and sought to take it up for themselves, or that's the yarn I was told anyway.

Casey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, I can not see the biblical foundation for the believe, that satan is godlike. So why should they create an anti-god? Did they try to explain all the evil in the world, because the alternative would have been to say, that god srewed up everything? Or just scare tactics again?

 

Scapegoat. Hey, what other "reason" can an xtian give for being the occasional dickweed? Surely it is not "their" fault... Must be the debil!

 

Ruby, great avatar!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yesterday I discovered some old "killing joke" songs. I always loved their music. Then I became a xian, so I could no longer listen to a "satanic" band. I thought about satanism again and now I wonder if there is any biblical origin to satanism.

The stuff I coul find in the bible was:

1. God created satan

2. Satan got thrown out of heaven

3. Some weird stuff in the revelation of john

4. The story of job

 

How could satanists and xians design some kind of "church" out of it? How could they make satan to someone godlike, although he was just a created being (I thought satan was gods little helper)? Why the xian fear of satanism and how could satanist make up an entire believe system out of the few biblical verses?

 

It is not that I believe all the stuff, I just wonder what the fuss was all about during my xian time.

The fear is irrational. The very best kind of fear.

 

To the Jews who simply use the OT (the Hebrew Bible), this Satan (adversary) is just some angel that works for YHWH. Nothing more really. The talking snake wasn't Satan and the Lucifer (Nebuchadnezzar) wasn't/isn't either. So there's really next to nothing to say about Satan in the OT other than he's an angel that wanders about the planet looking for people that might need to be brought to "court" (in that they need to be loyalty "tested" or whatnot...think Job). A good king needs people like Satan sniffing about his kingdom for possible "traitors" and the like.

 

A little before NT times this Satan started becoming synonymous with the devil (evil one) which had more to do with Hades (the place and its namesake ruler). So you had not only the job of "testing" you but also being a "god" in his own right. This can't happen in Judaism however, so he remained an angel but more of a demigod with his own little fiefdom that we know as hell (it all didn't happen at one time...this took centuries to really develop...I'm giving you the Readers Digest version off the top of my head so there's bound to be mistakes). Anyhow, you then have authors like in the Revelation putting these figures altogether into one figure which starts the tradition for xians (but not Jews obviously). The xians then read this new tradition back onto the OT and that Satan takes on these new traits. As does the talking snake and really any other "tempter" or evil type figure they desire (ie. Lucifer who had pride before the fall). Now figures that never were intended to be "Satan" or the "devil" are all Satan and the devil who are now one and the same creature (look at how the stories of the Pan-like creatures were also associated with this same thing but not so much anymore...but in our modern stories we look for the slicker business man/lawyer/politician type with sixes stamped on his own head).

 

The actual Church of Satan is a recent invention and LeVay just sort of made it all up. What (very) little I know about them was not based in anything biblical but more (anti) tradition, dogma and myth. I think people fear it because it has "Satan" in the title and it probably looked like a great "end times" thing. But LeVay was really the force behind that church and he's dead and the church really is just a thing for xians to point to in order to work themselves up. I suppose if they ever managed to get another charismatic leader they might get rolling again but it seems the shock value has largely worn off and that isn't likely to happen.

 

Like I said, that's the Readers Digest version. Hopefully I answered your question somewhere in there. :)

 

mwc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Elaine Pagles, The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics

 

This is one of Pagles works that I haven't read, but I bet it is informative on this question.

 

I was always of the opinion that most of the ideas about Satan as the devil came from Zoroastrianism in which there are two co-equal gods, one evil, and one good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is one of Pagles works that I haven't read, but I bet it is informative on this question.

I haven't read this book either but it's probably an informative read.

 

I was always of the opinion that most of the ideas about Satan as the devil came from Zoroastrianism in which there are two co-equal gods, one evil, and one good.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I totally skipped this in my summary. It certainly did play a part. Even in the bible you can see that where David is told my YHWH to take the census and then Satan tells him to take the same census. Previously all things were simply from the single god but after this dualism started the things that were seen to be "beneath" what followers of YHWH thought of him were shunted off to this "Satan" angel.

 

mwc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A bit late, but now:

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

I have searched the internet today and found the followind site: http://www.lwbc.co.uk/origin_of_satan.htm

 

They said:

 

This whole issue to clouded in mystery (...)

Others believe that he was created along with everything else during the six days of creation.

 

I find this unacceptable (...), because the inference is that God created Lucifer for the purpose of falling and causing the fall of man. This idea is dangerous and does not reveal God as a God of justice and love. It would mean that God planned for man to sin through Satan, and thus Himself would be the Author of sin. I believe that this issue should be left alone, for the simple reason that if God wanted us to know it would have been clearly revealed in the Bible. The very fact that there is no Scriptural evidence to prove the origin of Satan is warning enough that we should avoid it.

 

the bold text is my favorite part of it.

 

So thanks again for your ideas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it interesting that atheists/agnostics are oft times labeled as "loving" satan. Why is it that the simple conclusion that "if you don't believe in god, and or, the xtain god, you must therefore not only "believe" in santa errr I mean satan, but love him/it too?, is drawn?

 

Because of the black/white fundamentalist thinking and teaching. Even the more liberal xians teach that you are either in the Jesus camp or you are from Satan. There is no in between. They just can't grasp the concept that there is a third position - no god and therefore no satan.

 

I have searched the internet today and found the followind site: http://www.lwbc.co.uk/origin_of_satan.htm

 

They said:

 

This whole issue to clouded in mystery (...)

Others believe that he was created along with everything else during the six days of creation.

 

I find this unacceptable (...), because the inference is that God created Lucifer for the purpose of falling and causing the fall of man. This idea is dangerous and does not reveal God as a God of justice and love. It would mean that God planned for man to sin through Satan, and thus Himself would be the Author of sin. I believe that this issue should be left alone, for the simple reason that if God wanted us to know it would have been clearly revealed in the Bible. The very fact that there is no Scriptural evidence to prove the origin of Satan is warning enough that we should avoid it.

 

Line above bolded by me.

 

Well, yeah, if god created everything, he created everything. Including Satan, hell, and sin. Of course an apologist would want the issue left alone because if one started thinking about it, one might realize how ridiculous the entire story is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.