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Goodbye Jesus

The Message Of Salvation Is Meaningless


I Broke Free

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I posted the following two days ago on another forum. It mostly a forum dedicated to political discussions, but it has a section for religion too. There are many hard core fundies on the forum that never tire of lengthy posts, yet after two days NOT ONE person has commented on the post. I think I struck a raw nerve.

 

A few times in the past I have been approached by Christians excited to tell me that they have a wonderful message for me. They called it “The Good News” and they told me about the wonderful gift of salvation. They were all smiles of course; excited at the prospect of sharing what they believe is important information with me. I on the other hand having had this experience before was not so excited. I was not excited because I knew that very soon the wonderful message of salvation would turn south when the “real message” came into the conversation. For you see a message of salvation is meaningless without a threat to be saved from and that is when then Christian message of salvation losses its appeal. I can understand why many Christians open their spiel with this lofty phrase of salvation, any seasoned salesman could tell you that the opening line must be appealing and have a hook. But it does seem dishonest to me nonetheless.

 

We live in culture steeped in Christian tradition and few have escaped the message that the creator of the universe is not pleased with us. In fact He defines us by our sins and has labeled us ‘failed creatures’ tainted by the sins of our forefathers and worthy of everlasting torment. It is not surprising then that this message of salvation for most of us does not require a warning for we are already primed to believe that the creator of the universe finds us lacking. But how many of us ever question this premise?

 

Most of us eventually become parents. We learn through trial and error how to motivate our children to do the right thing. Most of us find we have better success in raising a good child by praising their accomplishments rather than berating them at every turn. How would most children fair if they were told by their parents from birth that they were unworthy to be in our presence, but that if they did exactly as they were told they would be rewarded with a roof over their heads and food to eat? They might do as they were told, but for all the wrong reasons. Why then do most of us accept this from God? It is not that I won’t believe this is how God operates; I literally CAN NOT believe this! Yet I am witness to hundreds of millions of people who accept this doctrine.

 

I watched a few minutes of the Left Behind series a few months back and was appalled at how people were asked if they have ever lied, only to be told that God now sees them as liars. Is that all God sees? Does He not see the good we do? If He does then why is there no praise for our accomplishments? Last month a complete stranger stopped to help me get my car out of snow bank after skidding on black ice. Why didn’t Kirk Cameron ask people about what nice things they do? Apparently it is not nearly as important to God. This whole notion that we are wretched creatures desperately attempting to please God enough to keep our ass out of hell is very disturbing to me. I can see nothing good coming from it, in fact I see it as the foundation for much of the human misery we see around us.

 

Your thoughts?

 

I Broke Free

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Truth hurts.

Christians emphasize man needs to be like God. I don't want to be like God. I think I am better than god, at least I don't kill my kids when they make mistakes.

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I think, IBF, me old dear, that the truth is too much of a shit sandwidch for most people to even try to acquire the taste for.

 

The content is both well written and truthful... you won't get any meaningful response due to the latter and they know it...

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The message is very truthful, and they realize that. It definitely struck a nerve, so much that they can't defend their beliefs with their typical crap.

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Guest eejay

Great post IBF. You could very well have struck a nerve with the x-tians, but someone is likely to have a response. Your message is very clear and the truth in that message is probably got them discussing amongst themselves how to challenge your post. Well written and to the point.

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IBF,

 

I appreciate that post. Enjoy summaries and short, to point demonstrations of that is trying to be communicated.

 

Your counter to the volumes of religious bullshit is perfect.

 

Ever notice how a 'serious xtian' ends up with a library of volumes and assorted texts used, dozens of authors, to 'prove his religious points'?

 

You, in a few simple direct sentences disassemble their entire foundation.

 

That Good Sir is worthy of a 'good dog' and extra dog, or was that god, cookies..? ;)

 

kL

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I Broke Free- that was excellent.

 

Yes, the "good news" is not so damn "good". There must be something to be saved from. What is it? "Sin". Something we were supposedly born with and that God hates us enough to throw us into hell for. No wonder so many people in this culture have such a low view of themselves.

 

We should protest and fight against this poisonous doctrine every chance we get.

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An excellent post, IBF. Well reasoned, concise, and 'twould be difficult for even the most hardboiled christian to refute.

 

Hopefully you plucked some strings out there.

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Thank you all for the responses, at least someone is reading it.

 

Oddly after two days of nothing on the other board, someone responded just minutes after I posted it here. The response was not negative, but it was clear that she did not want to hear my message and just spouted off the usual tripe about salvation being what everyone wants out of life. There was no mention about the need for that salvation in the first place and what that implies about god. People don’t like to have the comfy cages rattled.

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IBF, I agree 100% with you. I think many mental illness issues stem from the basic Christian belief that we are not good enough. And not only that, but we must continuously kiss the posterior of the being that we are supposedly not good enough for, in order to not be punished for not being good enough for his love. How messed up is that?

 

Love is not something that needs to be earned. It either happens naturally over time, or it does not happen at all. The whole concept of earned love is emotionally abusive; teaching it to children is even more so.

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Outstanding post, I Broke Free!

 

I wholeheartedly agree. I think maybe those of us who have rejected Christianity should carry our own "tracts" and hand them out when well-meaning but misguided Christians approach us on the street, or come knocking at our door with their "good news."

 

Perhaps we should offer them excerpts from Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason," of Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion," or Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not a Christian."

 

It probably wouldn't change their views, but it would let them know where we stand. And it might plant a few seeds of truth and skepticism that might actually grow if they allowed their minds to reason, and not to reject free thought as something diabolical.

 

Most Christians can't handle the truth — or don't want to — unless they are at a stage where they have begun to question and to doubt.

 

Some will fiercely resist the truth to their dying breath, convinced they are faithful to god. But this god won't be so faithful to them, because he is a figment of their imagination. And that's a very, very good thing considering this god of theirs would damn the vast majority of humanity to hell.

 

John 3:16 tells us "For God so loved the world ..." (blah, blah, blah). But if he really loved the world, why would he destroy it by a flood once, promise to destroy it by fire a second time, and promise to cast billions of souls into hell. That's not love – at least not any kind of love that I want any part of whatsoever!

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Outstanding post, I Broke Free!

 

I wholeheartedly agree. I think maybe those of us who have rejected Christianity should carry our own "tracts" and hand them out when well-meaning but misguided Christians approach us on the street, or come knocking at our door with their "good news."

 

Perhaps we should offer them excerpts from Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason," of Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion," or Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not a Christian."

 

It probably wouldn't change their views, but it would let them know where we stand. And it might plant a few seeds of truth and skepticism that might actually grow if they allowed their minds to reason, and not to reject free thought as something diabolical.

 

Most Christians can't handle the truth — or don't want to — unless they are at a stage where they have begun to question and to doubt.

 

Some will fiercely resist the truth to their dying breath, convinced they are faithful to god. But this god won't be so faithful to them, because he is a figment of their imagination. And that's a very, very good thing considering this god of theirs would damn the vast majority of humanity to hell.

 

John 3:16 tells us "For God so loved the world ..." (blah, blah, blah). But if he really loved the world, why would he destroy it by a flood once, promise to destroy it by fire a second time, and promise to cast billions of souls into hell. That's not love – at least not any kind of love that I want any part of whatsoever!

Hitchens "god is not great" is a good read too. Not that the xtians will ever read any of them. They have been brainwashed to ignore everything but "praise gawd and pass the offering plate." As I saw it put so succintly here, they are instructed to "doubt your doubts."

Great post and I sincerely hope you influence someone to at least think. :fun:

 

-- larry

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Thank you all for the responses, at least someone is reading it.

 

Oddly after two days of nothing on the other board, someone responded just minutes after I posted it here. The response was not negative, but it was clear that she did not want to hear my message and just spouted off the usual tripe about salvation being what everyone wants out of life. There was no mention about the need for that salvation in the first place and what that implies about god. People don’t like to have the comfy cages rattled.

 

yes it will be surprising if any of them do address the issues you raised. they can't seem to face them. i've asked on some chrisitan forums similar questions re God's crueltly. i've also asked 2 ministers , some other people from church, and a couple of others who volunteered to answer my question via email, but so far havent given me an answer, even though assurring me they would. and even though i asked them to please not give me the 'free will' answer, becos that doesnt address my question, they invariably do give that answer. its been months now, i've gone into it thoroughly, but they can't 'hear' me. they keep giving me the answer to a question i havent asked. i have come to the conclusion they are not capable of hearing it oraddressing it. its very strange and disturbing.

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yes it will be surprising if any of them do address the issues you raised

 

They didn’t of course. All I got was one guy who said “But Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself.” How could that be evil?

 

They cannot and will not address the issue. No surprises. :loser:

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Excellent post, IBF!

 

And why oh why can't these Cameronesque believers see the ugly corollary of their fairytale: Is a god who can see only lies and "sins" even capable of creating a paradise or forgiving people?

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excellent post. i've been thinking this over a long tinme myself, but i doubt i could have said it that well. they preach salvation as a way to lift you up, but first you have to accept that you have torn yourself down. maybe thats why i get so offended when people try to witness to me, its just very insulting :<

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I got more responses to my post but it degenerated into a big mess where I accused the responders of not addressing my question and they in turn accused me of just being and anti-Christian jerk. None of them will respond directly to my question, none of them. All they do is grab the bible and some apologetics and vomit out a response.

 

I give up! About every 18 months I get a bee in my bonnet and think I can make impact with one of my posts on a Christian website only to be quickly reminded that I am not dealing with rational people. It doesn’t take long to remember that I am dealing with grown adults who are so scared shitless about their own salvation that they would throw their own children in the lake of fire to keep their asses out of it. When you are dealing with that kind of fear, there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING you can say that will sway them. Just like a drug addict they have to hit their own bottom before they can begin to climb out, and for most of them, that day will never come.

 

I think I will keep my sanity and stay here where people’s synapses are still holding hands.

 

 

PS cm-christ. I love your signature. I think I am going to light one up this evening. I need it.

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