Neon Genesis Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Yesterday during Sunday school, the xtians were discussing about how morality comes from God and that because even godless people have a moral conscious, it proves morality comes from God since even godless people know some things are bad without having religion. But they said that the difference was that when godless people "violate" their conscience, it becomes a downward spiral of sin after sin. But of course, xitans have Jesus to help keep them moral and we all know "real" xtians never do anything bad. Funny, I'm an atheist now and my moral conscience doesn't feel that drastically different and I'm not going around murdering and raping people. I still have a guilty conscience if I ever do something that hurts someone else, so I just don't see where they get this downward spiral business from. But of course Paul said so, so it must be true and xtians obviously know what unbelievers think better than unbelievers do. Where's a rolling eye emoticon when you need it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtJayson Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 It's the exact same thinking that if someone is a homosexual, they are obviously pedophiles and rapists...or that if someone is a police officer, they law abiding citizens...Out of all of the homosexuals that I know, not one of them is a pedophile and out of all the cops I know, there are many that are in fact more corrupt than some of the criminals that they arrest! It's a stereotype! Christians like to stereotype everyone else...but if you try to do the same to them, they are angry and defensive. In fact, many of them believe that if you are not actually part of their denomination, you are just as much on that downward spiral as an atheist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Its a very superficial morality they have, one that in essence is a list of do's and dont's (with little regard to the actual rightness of these actions) in anticipation of a reward or or punishment. Its like getting stuck in the pre-conventional stage of Kholberg's stages of moral development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Yesterday during Sunday school, the xtians were discussing about how morality comes from God and that because even godless people have a moral conscious, it proves morality comes from God since even godless people know some things are bad without having religion. But they said that the difference was that when godless people "violate" their conscious, it becomes a downward spiral of sin after sin. But of course, xitans have Jesus to help keep them moral and we all know "real" xtians never do anything bad. Funny, I'm an atheist now and my moral conscious doesn't feel that drastically different and I'm not going around murdering and raping people. I still have a guilty conscious if I ever do something that hurts someone else, so I just don't see where they get this downward spiral business from. But of course Paul said so, so it must be true and xtians obviously know what unbelievers think better than unbelievers do. Where's a rolling eye emoticon when you need it? Just a minor point, you really mean "conscience" (the moral utility) and not "conscious" or "consciousness" (sentience). And here's the rolleyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted April 14, 2008 Author Share Posted April 14, 2008 Thanks, I always get confused with those words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Thanks, I always get confused with those words. I hear ya. It took me a while too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gradstu09 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 That's why they're so terrified of anything that challenges their worldview. ven one tiny step off the path might send them to hell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 But they said that the difference was that when godless people "violate" their conscience, it becomes a downward spiral of sin after sin. But of course, xitans have Jesus to help keep them moral and we all know "real" xtians never do anything bad. Interesting, isn't it, that these xtian theories never work in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstarter Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 All I could picture when you said downward spiral, is one of those twisty slides at the playground... at least we have a really fun way to go to hell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha centauri Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 My morality has certainly not declined since I left Christianity behind. I still think hurting others is wrong, and I no longer try to excuse or justify the hurtful actions of the grand tyrant in the sky. When I was a Christian, I was frustrated that for people who are "politically correct," tolerance of Christianity was in short supply. But after reading the Bible and listening to what Christians actually have to say, I understand why freethinkers and so many intelligent people are intolerant of Christianity. It really is a gutter religion in so many ways. It portrays mankind as evil and worthless apart from Christ's presence in our lives. Christianity tries to devalue any human achievement or accomplishment that disagrees with its own narrow agenda. And later, when that achievement is widely accepted by society, Christians so often try to credit God with the very efforts that were so fiercely resisted by Christians! That's been the reaction to scientific discovery throughout history. And in order to compensate for their own insecurities, they have to align themselves with what they perceive as the most powerful force in the universe, whether real or not. And if anyone dare question them, Christians so often lash out, or they go into a shell. It's so childish and so unreasonable. I'm so glad I'm no longer a prisoner to the stupidity of that religion (or relationship with the imaginary Big 'Un). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Net Eng Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Yesterday during Sunday school, the xtians were discussing about how morality comes from God and that because even godless people have a moral conscious, it proves morality comes from God since even godless people know some things are bad without having religion. Really. Based on that same logic there is a god because even the godless have a spleen! From a personal point of view: Since becoming an atheist I am actually more aware of my actions in relation to others than when I was an xian. While in xianland I assumed that if I screwed up and hurt someone that god would take care of it... after asking for forgiveness first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback Jack Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 the xtians were discussing about how morality comes from God and that because even godless people have a moral conscious, it proves morality comes from God since even godless people know some things are bad without having religion. Something about this statement struck me as very fishy, and it took me a couple of beers to figure out what it was. It's EXACTLY like the pro-ID statements the fundys make. They make an obvious statement about the human condition or the world around us, and then attribute that situation to their personal deity. Is their statement falsifiable (i.e. able to be proven wrong)? I guess it depends on what you consider to be "some things [that] are bad". How about murder and human sacrifice? You'd think that should be pretty straightforward, considering gawds convoluted rules. Yet those silly, "godless" Incas and Aztecs sacrificed untold thousands of people because their "gawd" demanded it. So disproving that part of the statement just doesn't hold up. How about disproving the other half? Well, find me a human society that doesn't have any moral codes (based within their own society) and we'll just see how they hold up to the original statement. (I won't hold my breath) And just to beat a dead horse... But they said that the difference was that when godless people "violate" their conscience, it becomes a downward spiral of sin after sin. Not like Jim Jones, David Koresh, Jim and Tammy Faye, ect, ect, ect, ect.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 I have to say that one of the reasons I left Christianity was because I had a huge problem with their morals. Hating people for being different is not something I view as moral. Nor is torturing someone for all of eternity for not being perfect enough or of a different religion, or just plain murdering them (if you believe that hell = death). Not to mention, talking badly about poor people, yet never lifting a finger to help them, and all the while spending money on themselves. I would say that my morality hasn't changed one bit since leaving. It's just that now I don't have to clash my sense of ethics with something that's supposed to be moral, but really isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazycatlady Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 I think it is pretty easy to argue that most morals are really common sense. For example, if people are not allowed to kill other people, I am considerably less likely to be murdered. Also, it is against the nature of most mammals to actually another member of their same species. Incest seems to produce some messed up people -- maybe we shouldn't do that. According to a footnote in the bible, the Jewish dietary laws of "clean" vs. "unclean" animals is merely a description of edible and inedible animals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha centauri Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 I have to say that one of the reasons I left Christianity was because I had a huge problem with their morals. Hating people for being different is not something I view as moral. Nor is torturing someone for all of eternity for not being perfect enough or of a different religion, or just plain murdering them (if you believe that hell = death). Not to mention, talking badly about poor people, yet never lifting a finger to help them, and all the while spending money on themselves. I would say that my morality hasn't changed one bit since leaving. It's just that now I don't have to clash my sense of ethics with something that's supposed to be moral, but really isn't. Amethyst, you summed it up very well. My sentiments exactly. The morals of the Bible are pretty twisted. It mixes stuff that seems good and reasonable with stuff that is just plain hateful and evil, and it calls it all good. After all, who are we to question god, they say. Well, if there is a god, she/he or it gave me a brain. And I have to think any intelligent god would welcome questioning and doubt and would be appalled by stupid blind obedience and naive acceptance. One of the things that bothered me when I was a Christian was all the Christian cruises advertised on radio stations like K-Love. Ummm, they could donate that money to help other people. Instead it seems they just used Jesus' reasoning when he justified being covered with expensive perfume by saying "the poor you will always have with you (recorded in Matthew 26:6-11). My old pastor at the Southern Baptist church I attended loves to take trips to Hawii, and the associate pastor likes to take cruises quite a lot. It's not exactly the pious and self-sacrificing lifestyle Christians like to portray. These men are paid very well. The church each week ran a list of how much money was needed to fund all of its operations, and how much extra they received. It was pretty astounding how much cash people forked over to pay for these cruises, trips to Hawaii, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 All I could picture when you said downward spiral, is one of those twisty slides at the playground... at least we have a really fun way to go to hell! Yeah, and if you're the kind of christian who has a big god of irresistible grace at the bottom to swoop you up into heaven the minute you hit bottom, you get the fun ride to hell AND you get to spend eternity in heaven. You get your cake and you get to eat it too. Talk about cheap grace. I'd rather be an honest atheist and go wherever that takes me on my own two feet, than ride into golden palaces and heavens on the back of someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozimoto Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Once again, christianity fails to distinguish itself from other religions. I had this discussion with a churchy when I was exiting the faith... "Everyone has morals - they came from god" So, why do we need to be a christian, then, if we can still have morals and live a moral life regardless? "B/c if you aren't a christian, you could convince yourself that something was right, say killing someone, and then you couldn't stop." But if everyone else saw it as a mistake, you couldn't fool yourself into believing that killing that person was a good idea. The collective would pull you up on it. And if you are a christian, God might convince you that you should kill someone - that has happened before. "YOU NEED JESUS, GLORY!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 I guess this thread sort of sums up what I already know about morality: it is and has always been independent of religion since the inception of thought. I only learned about this through my philosophy courses in college. Whenever I act moral and immoral anymore, I usually don't think of the spiritual ramifications like I used to. If more Christians really thought about these ideas critically, and I mean seriously examined them with there capacities for reason, you would see the fall of Christianity within the next generation or so. Unfortunately if religion really is a virus of the mind and spirit, then anytime any suggestion of critical thought about the foundations of each faith might still and always will be met with negative reactions of the emotional variety. I don't know, subjective experience can really be a bastard sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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