I'm Free!

[R. S. Martin]

I feel like this is the last stage of my deconversion. All these many months since my deconversion in Sept. 2006 I believed my thesis supervisor was supportive of me. And I've defended him and his brand of Christianity on these forums with tooth and claw. What happened today (posted here) causes me to reconsider. Also, I feel like I am finally in a position where I can afford not to feel good about him. I think it's more than just what happened today. I feel so relieved that I don't have to play the Christian politics anymore.

 

I've fulfilled all degree requirements and am free from the seminary. I'm glad for what I learned there but I'm also glad I'm done--so very glad. I had no idea what a burden was hanging over my head. I had convinced myself that people there liked me and were nice. Maybe it was all because of the money that I, as a student, brought them.

 

The seminary and my degree were my last formal allegiance to religion. As reporters like to ask at interviews, "What would I advise to other students in church schools?" I would say evaluate the situation, weigh the pros and cons. What do you want out of it? What are your alternative options? I don't see how I could have done it at a fundamentalist school.

[Crazycatlady]

Congratulations on finishing and being done with it all.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm not sure that emotionally it's over. I didn't have a good night. Woke up early. Had bad dreams. I'd trusted and respected my supervisor all these five years or so that I worked with him. And I feel like he turned on me yesterday at the oral exam and ripped me to shreds for my lack of religion. It was like he's finally in a position to take it out on me for all the evil I did to him since my deconversion. But I don't know what I did wrong that he feels he has to take out on me. That's what hurts so much. I tried at the time to find out and he wouldn't tell me. He would just "sweep it under the carpet," so to speak, and act as though it really wasn't worth griping about.

 

I'd been sure that there were some good Christians because he was so good and decent. But the way he acted yesterday--it was a bitter disillusionment.

[alpha centauri]

Congratulations, RubySera!

 

I once considered attending seminary (Southern Baptist) but my deconversion happened first. I'm sure I would've had quite an experience. Even the "moderate" Southern Baptists are pretty hardcore in their beliefs and adherence to Biblical infallibility. They would've tried to tar and feather me if I rejected their beliefs.

 

I sympathize with what you had to go through when a former mentor turned on you. I agree with those who responded to your other post and said he was lashing out because you had struck a nerve.

 

It's kinda like when you try to pull a burr out of an animal's paw, and they try to bite you because of the pain they feel. They don't realize that you're not trying to cause them pain. But people should know better. If your supervisor did realize that, he didn't appreciate the fact.

 

He was likely trying to put on a big show for his co-workers and let them know that he didn't buy into your line of reasoning. He was, after all, overseeing your thesis. So he felt he had to humilate you in order to separate himself from you. What a lowlife. He had to trash you to make himself feel better, and to make himself look better in the eyes of others.

 

I'm sure this reaffirms all the thoughts you've had on making the break. Remember that old song "They'll Know We're Christians By Our Love?" Yeah, right! What a load of horse hockey!

 

Thanks for sharing your story with us. You're definitely in good company on this forum.

 

All the best,

 

Alpha Centauri

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks for this analysis. I needed to hear it from someone. It's hard to see it when it's happening to me. I looked for the other posts you mentioned but couldn't find them. Thanks so much the more for writing it out for me. I really needed to hear it.

[R. S. Martin]

It's kinda like when you try to pull a burr out of an animal's paw, and they try to bite you because of the pain they feel. They don't realize that you're not trying to cause them pain. But people should know better. If your supervisor did realize that, he didn't appreciate the fact.

 

"Helping" them/him was totally outside my intentions. I knew better than to try. I was merely organzing the information, expressing myself, and trying to make sense of my own life. And he knew it.

 

He was likely trying to put on a big show for his co-workers and let them know that he didn't buy into your line of reasoning. He was, after all, overseeing your thesis. So he felt he had to humilate you in order to separate himself from you. What a lowlife. He had to trash you to make himself feel better, and to make himself look better in the eyes of others.

 

This is possible. I'll never know. But it does give me a way to see the situation that lets me live with myself. I'd been feeling so confused I barely knew which side was up. When I left the exam I felt like monsters might attack me from out of dark corners. It was a really seriously deep betrayal.

 

It's one more reason not to go public with my deconversion in this part of the world. People are nice to me so long as they think of me as just another person. I wear the traditional Mennonite dress because that is what I've always worn and feel comfortable with. I did my degree in theology because that is what life brought my way. By appearance and credentials I'm a "good Christian." It's only what's inside of me--my beliefs, and the people I hang out with for socials and online--that is not Christian.

 

The way I've got my life arranged by now these are fairly easy to hide. Maybe this is why I feel that getting out of the seminary is the final stage of my deconversion. The profs there were the last people who had any right or claim to impose what I profess to believe. Key word is "profess." People can force me to profess things but they cannot force me to believe.

 

Perhaps this gets at the core of it. This supervisor zeroed in on the word authority. My thesis was on fundamentalist theology. I argued that it is based on authority and that they don't look at the logic behind the authority.

 

Well, my supervisor was sitting around the corner of the table from me. Pulling his six-foot frame up to its full height, and shifting his well-filled out frame to fully face me, he addressed me with an attitude of authority and "let's see what she makes of this." And then he began to speak.

 

My guess is that I appeared calm and collected and that he doesn't have the slightest clue he gave me nightmares. Of that I am proud.

[Piprus]

Blessings to you, Ruby, and congratulations on your completions of your studies! Truly, you have hit a milestone of life, and crossed over it with honors...in many ways, knowing your tenure and the nature of your postings here on Ex-C.net. Joy to you, friend, you deserve to relax in the afterglow of what you have accomplished. May you feel strength and confidence in the challenges that are yet to come..

 

As always, your friend, "Piprus"...

[Evelyn]

All I can say is

 

With a few thrown in for good measure!

[alpha centauri]

Well, my supervisor was sitting around the corner of the table from me. Pulling his six-foot frame up to its full height, and shifting his well-filled out frame to fully face me, he addressed me with an attitude of authority and "let's see what she makes of this." And then he began to speak.

 

My guess is that I appeared calm and collected and that he doesn't have the slightest clue he gave me nightmares. Of that I am proud.

 

I'm proud of you, too. I'm about the same height (5-10), but I hate when people use their size/authority to try and intimidate others. Way to go! The fact that you remained calm probably flustered him even more.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks everybody. I'm still watching this thread. Still having nightmares. At least, I think it was only in a dream. I talked with someone about my impression that it's okay for students to have their own value or belief systems. And I was sternly informed that my impression was incorrect.

 

As I try to recollect the details of the conversation, and the reasons given, there's a blank. It must have been a dream.

 

Also, it happened in the lobby of the seminary. And it happened just the other day--not months and months ago when the place was busy. However, the fact of the matter is that there was no one in the lobby the other day when I was in. I handed my paper to the person at the window at the main office. I saw no one else. For the oral exam, I met no one in the lobby, either. Everyone was upstairs. It really must have been a dream.

 

Come to think of it, some people would say this is my conscience at work in me. I guess not. I know myself well enough to know that I was traumatized. And I know why. No matter if he had been a foot shorted than me, that attitude is enough to do it. Given his size and position of authority, along with the personal relationship I thought we had...

 

I must seem to be whining but this thing is really seriously deeply bothering me. Like a festering thorn. Old wounds ripped open. I don't fully understand.

[One_World]

Ruby,

 

I can't pretend to relate to what you're going through, but I commend you for your courage and bravery for standing up for yourself. I wish I could be as strong! I'm sure the nightmares are no different than any traumatic emotional event...the aftershocks keep washing through in lower and lower doses until they dissipate for good. Wait it out, it will pass

 

On a more critical note, this is yet another example of a Christian thinking he/she is helping the nonbeliever by judging. The "Holier Than Thou" attitude gets old quick, especially when Thou have no desire to be holy! It's a sad situation. But it's going to be better for you.

[Deva]

Ruby from what you have written about your supervisor I tend to agree with Alpha Centauri. I think he felt this was his final opportunity to get a shot at you, and he took it, sorry to say.

 

I hope you are able to put this incident behind you and move on with no more nightmares.

[R. S. Martin]

Ruby,

 

I can't pretend to relate to what you're going through, but I commend you for your courage and bravery for standing up for yourself. I wish I could be as strong! I'm sure the nightmares are no different than any traumatic emotional event...the aftershocks keep washing through in lower and lower doses until they dissipate for good. Wait it out, it will pass

 

Thank you--for understanding and for giving me hope.

 

On a more critical note, this is yet another example of a Christian thinking he/she is helping the nonbeliever by judging.

 

He helped me alright but probably not in the way he would have hoped. He helped me decide for sure that Christians are just as bad as people here have always said. I see you're new but ever since my deconversion (I found this site about the same time I deconverted) I've been defending this man on here because I believed he was one Christian who lived like Jesus said. I'd been working with him for a few years by that time and I had great respect for him and his insights. It's ironic how it has been Christians all along who made me realize that I was not Christian enough to associate with them anymore. They're driving me away!

 

The "Holier Than Thou" attitude gets old quick, especially when Thou have no desire to be holy! It's a sad situation. But it's going to be better for you.

 

Exactly! That was one of the things that felt so good at deconversion--I don't have to be holy, I can just be human and that will be good enough. The other side of the coin is somewhat weighty but feels wholesome--and that is personal responsibility. I can't just ask to be forgiven and it will be "right, all right." I have to make an honest effort to live right, but I don't have to be holy. It's a delicate balance.

[R. S. Martin]

Ruby from what you have written about your supervisor I tend to agree with Alpha Centauri. I think he felt this was his final opportunity to get a shot at you, and he took it, sorry to say.

 

That's the feeling I've had about it, too. What makes me shudder now is that I spent another fifteen minutes alone in the room with him--and I closed the door--after everyone else had left. But nothing bad happened. He just talked straight business on how I should finish up the paper. Luckily it takes some time for my feelings to kick in. That allowed me to finish up business calmly.

 

I hope you are able to put this incident behind you and move on with no more nightmares.

 

I think I can with the support of people here. Thank you so much. It's just been really confusing for myself and everyone else because of the seriously mixed feelings.

[wonderer]

I think I can with the support of people here. Thank you so much. It's just been really confusing for myself and everyone else because of the seriously mixed feelings.

 

Ruby, even though you and I disagree on some issues (I truly believe Christianity is evil, and the people who commit to it to the exclusion of reason and logic are mentally ill.), I hope you know that I admire and respect your courage and perserverance in fighting through all of this chaos.

 

Congratulations on completing the work, and now: Get some rest! Get away from all of this for a while.

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

Rob

[R. S. Martin]

I think I can with the support of people here. Thank you so much. It's just been really confusing for myself and everyone else because of the seriously mixed feelings.

 

Ruby, even though you and I disagree on some issues (I truly believe Christianity is evil, and the people who commit to it to the exclusion of reason and logic are mentally ill.), I hope you know that I admire and respect your courage and perserverance in fighting through all of this chaos.

 

Congratulations on completing the work, and now: Get some rest! Get away from all of this for a while.

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

Rob

 

Thank you for your support, Rob. And I'm a lot closer to thinking like you than I was a week ago. The name of this man who turned on me and caused me nightmares is Bob. (Don't know how people decide on Rob or Bob but he goes by Bob.) Well, it was because of Bob that I had been sticking to my guns that there are good Christians--Bob and his colleagues. What he did to me was, in my opinion, evil. Some people say there is no such thing as spiritual rape. They say physical rape is the very worst thing that can happen to a person. I think perhaps they have not experienced all the horrors life has to offer. I think there is an upper limit of horror the human psyche is capable of handling, and that anything above that limit just registers as mind-numbing or whatever. I'm not a psychologist. In my opinion, what he did to me was the equivilent of rape and that is evil. Breaking promises is evil. Betraying trust is evil. He did all of those things.

 

Is he clinically diagnosed with a mental illness. No of course not. (Or if he is, it is well controled so that he functions normally--except when he gets an evil streak to be a nasty bastard.) But he does believe that he, as a human being, is utterly depraved and that somehow because his parents had him baptized at the age of eight months he was made better. And because he parttakes of the Eucharist regularly he is eating the flesh and blood of a man who died 2000 years ago YUCK!!! He takes great comfort in that. Oh, and I also remember from his course that he believes in irresistible grace.

 

He said he did his best to resist grace (I think that was a hand-written note in the margin of one of his books that he loaned me) and he found it's impossible. I don't know what kind of experiment he did. I think irresistible grace probably means that no matter how hard you try to get away from God's forgiveness you simply can't because God is so hard up to forgive you he will follow you wherever you go and forgive you. Heck! who wouldn't come to that conclusion. Easy way out of taking responsibility for your actions.

 

Had he not been so nice and decent all these years I would have come to this conclusion a long time ago but he seemed to be living the true Christlike life. Now I'm wondering how much crime he's hiding behind closed doors.

 

BTW, no nightmares last night. It really is helping that people here are being supportive. Thanks again everyone.

[LtJayson]

Congratulations on finishing! While, since I am new, I am not sure of the whole backstory, I can say that it is something that you can be proud of for sure. Any degree, no matter what it is in, in a step in the direction of knowledge. To tell you the truth, if I hadn't actually gone through with my Doctoral Dissertation and finished the Th.D, I don't know if I would have made it to the start of my deconversion so rapidly. I am sure that there would have been many more years of hurt involved! The knowledge is the key :-)

 

Great work on the hard work and again, congratulations!

[One_World]

Had he not been so nice and decent all these years I would have come to this conclusion a long time ago but he seemed to be living the true Christlike life. Now I'm wondering how much crime he's hiding behind closed doors.

 

BTW, no nightmares last night. It really is helping that people here are being supportive. Thanks again everyone.

 

Hey,

 

So many Christians that I've known think that, by looking down their noses at the less pious among them, they are acting like Christ. It's far better to treat others as you would yourself (which I understand he could never consider being in your place!) than to treat them like crap and claim to be doing God's work. It's a shame so few Christians cannot grasp the concept that actions speak louder than words. My apologies if this isn't funny to you, but it dawned on me that you could have called him Judas Iscariot and really pissed him off. He betrayed you, after all.

 

Good to hear about the restful night's sleep. I wish you continued strength in the face of your troubles and peace when it passes.

 

Russell

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks Jayson. I've been reading your posts. Rough trip you've been on. Education came at a somewhat different time in life for me than it did for you, and probably played a somewhat different role. I think I might have deconverted anyway. I had basically deconverted before I started higher education. I don't know what you know about me. I'm from a horse and buggy community where education beyond Grade 8 is not allowed. I was taught that the universities are really evil and to esp. be aware of any school that teaches preachers because Satan would definitely be there.

 

A favourite story often repeated in sermons was of a professor who held up the Bible and said, "The answers to this world's problems are no longer found in this book!" That story (whether true or false is not something I can acertain but it was taken as absolute truth) was all the evidence my people needed that higher education, and esp. that of preachers, was of the devil. So when I entered university I was eager to learn what people believed who didn't believe in God.

 

In my first class I found out that people believed in God. I was seriously disappointed. Also, I had to rethink my own faith. I had been taught that we are so very much better than any city people, or mainstream society. I could tell that these people took their faith seriously. That meant I really had a lot to live up to. Basically, that postponed my deconversion for another ten years. I was at a large school and had the opportunity to take courses in sociology of religion and anthropology to explore religion and spirituality from many different angles. Then I studied religion and theology on the graduate level. I feel my education helped me do a systematic search just to be sure I hadn't missed anything important. And then I had these forums since Sept. 2006.

 

I had the unique opportunity to be on these forums at the time I was taking NT in seminary. I started a thread on here about the historical Jesus at the same time that we were studying the topic at school. We looked at the very same data on here that we looked at in seminary. We came to opposite conclusions. I noticed that the prof accepted as evidence for Jesus' historical existance arguments that he would not have accepted for anything else. That was like knocking out the central support pillar of the cathedral. I had already read Tom Harpur's Pagan Christ, and other similar literature. I had already taken a course with him in which I had read the Nag Hamadi Library and some other ancient Gnostic literature, some of which made more sense to me from a salvation point of view than did the orthodox Christian plan of salvation.

 

I was still a Christian when I took the Gnostic course, and I was desperately seeking a way to remain a believer. Whenever I tried talking to him about how some of these others seemed more logical than the orthodox view, he discounted them out of hand. He is a fervent believer and somehow seems to think everyone else should believe, too. But he wouldn't listen to me or help me understand. (This wasn't Bob; this was another prof.) This is so unfair. It's the way christians always are. You have to believe but they refuse to give answers--however they condemn you if you cannot believe without answers.

 

This, too, seems evil.

[R. S. Martin]

My apologies if this isn't funny to you, but it dawned on me that you could have called him Judas Iscariot and really pissed him off. He betrayed you, after all.

 

Better wait to do that till I actually have my piece of paper in hand. That won't be for a couple months yet.

[alpha centauri]

I was still a Christian when I took the Gnostic course, and I was desperately seeking a way to remain a believer. Whenever I tried talking to him about how some of these others seemed more logical than the orthodox view, he discounted them out of hand. He is a fervent believer and somehow seems to think everyone else should believe, too. But he wouldn't listen to me or help me understand. (This wasn't Bob; this was another prof.) This is so unfair. It's the way christians always are. You have to believe but they refuse to give answers--however they condemn you if you cannot believe without answers.

 

This, too, seems evil.

 

RubySera, I've had some similar conversations with Christians. Many just absolutely refuse to be open to the possibility that their particular brand of faith, or their denomination, etc. may not have the right answers.

 

I remember a conversation with a Southern Baptist who condemned Methodists because they didn't use the right kind of communion bread! (Plus they let women preach ... GASP!).

 

And then there's the whole dunking vs. sprinkling in baptism. One man I know was denied membership at a Baptist church because he had only been sprinkled, not dunked. He got mad and left to attend another church that accepted his sprinkling.

 

And Catholics think all the Protestants are wrong, and Protestants think Catholics are wrong, blah, blah, blah.

 

Then there's Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, who are seen as evil (or at least misguided) cults by most Christians, but who see themselves as the one true faith.

 

On top of that, there's the Seventh-Day Adventists (the Branch Davidians of Waco were an off-shoot of that) who believe everyone who worships on Sunday is wrong, and God only wants the sabbath to be recognized on Saturday.

 

It's a vicious circle of close-minded dogma and superstition.

[R. S. Martin]

I was still a Christian when I took the Gnostic course, and I was desperately seeking a way to remain a believer. Whenever I tried talking to him about how some of these others seemed more logical than the orthodox view, he discounted them out of hand. He is a fervent believer and somehow seems to think everyone else should believe, too. But he wouldn't listen to me or help me understand. (This wasn't Bob; this was another prof.) This is so unfair. It's the way christians always are. You have to believe but they refuse to give answers--however they condemn you if you cannot believe without answers.

 

This, too, seems evil.

 

RubySera, I've had some similar conversations with Christians. Many just absolutely refuse to be open to the possibility that their particular brand of faith, or their denomination, etc. may not have the right answers.

 

Yes, so long as it's all within the "household of faith" they will fight tooth and claw with each other--you know, in-house fighting. But they take it to a whole new level, I found, when one leaves the "household of faith" altogether. I was by no means an orthodox christian when I registered at the seminary. And they knew it. But they seemed not to have a problem with that at all. They are Lutheran and have special rules that Lutheran students must meet. I was not Lutheran and did not pretend to be Lutheran. I demonstrated having a solid value system, so I was respected and accepted. It was only after I deconverted that the animosity started.

 

The same applied to my family. They got seriously nasty when I left their church for a much more liberal one. I didn't think they could get any nastier if I deconverted. I thought hell was hell and that it couldn't get any worse. I was WRONG. Apparently, so long as I still professed to believe in a Christian god, even if it was the wrong version, I wasn't quite as bad as not believing in god at all. Or believing in a false god--I was investigating paganism when they withdrew their love. I don't know how they differentiate between various versions of the christian god and patheistic or pagan gods.

 

I think they want a person to believe in the god of abraham--that would include the Christian, Muslim, and Judaic gods. But don't you dare suggest that there is no reason to believe in god!

[alpha centauri]

I think they want a person to believe in the god of abraham--that would include the Christian, Muslim, and Judaic gods. But don't you dare suggest that there is no reason to believe in god!

 

 

Interesting. In my case, I'm 99 percent sure my parents and sisters would prefer me to be an atheist, as opposed to a Muslim. Sure, they think atheists are going to hell and they would be horrified. But they see Islam as an evil religion, invented by the devil himself to dominate the world.

 

I even think my wife and kids (my wife is a liberal Christian, and my kids at least sometimes go through the motions) would prefer an atheist in the household as opposed to a Muslim.

 

In their opinion, it would be something like accepting a communist over a Nazi.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm not sure about Muslim or Jew. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. I did notice that crossing the line from heretical Christian to nonreligious made a definite difference. It has also happened on two occasions here in this town that, when I said I wasn't a Christian, I was asked by evangelical Christians whether I belonged to some other religion. That gave me the idea that perhaps they would have respected my space if I had professed Judaism or Islam because those are legitimately recognized organized religions. But yes, as I write, I am quite sure that being Muslim or Jewish would be more acceptable than atheist. The problem seems to be the no-god belief. Both Muslims and Jews believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who created the universe as recorded in Genesis.

 

Possibly you haven't seen it but I've been so upset by this thing that I've been posting all over the place just to get some handle on it. Here I reconstruct the conversation and my thoughts around it at the time as I remember it. The theological emphasis seems to be on belief in God and his creation. Regarding my family's feelings. In my conversation with my sister re my position, it also regarded God's existence and creation more than salvation and Jesus. In our conversation, just to be sure we understood each other about what kind of god we were talking about, I said something along the lines of, "If you mean the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who lead the Israelites out of Egypt--I don't believe in that God." That settled it; I was irredeemably atheist in her eyes--unless I repented. So I guess belief in God supercedes belief in Jesus.

 

On these forums I've seen lots of people who say Jesus is God, and it seems there is more emphasis on Jesus and literal salvation than on God. Neither my former church, nor the seminary, used that kind of language. God is supreme and Jesus is subordinate. Thus, if one does not believe in God, neither does one believe in the divinity of Jesus, the depravity of humanity, or salvation through Jesus. This is the way I have always understood things. With the new birth not being quite so literal and crucial to salvation, Islam and Judaism are probably more easily accepted. I've been wrong before but that is the way I see it at the moment.