The Battle For My Soul

[One_World]

Ha ha, so I guess the title is a bit melodramatic and very self-serving. My apologies.

 

I found this forum thanks to a great poster over at Beliefnet. I am a 25 year old male with serious doubts about religion and my place in the world (don't we all?).

 

Here's my dilemma in a nutshell. I was raised Catholic and was Confirmed at age 17. I attended a Catholic grade school and everything. I was never really opposed to going to Sunday Mass except I never got anything out of it. I never really felt better or more alive or anything throughout each service. The Eucharist and all of that was just a series of motions to go through. Through the bible passage readings and the gospels and homilies, I usually zoned out during Mass and never really took anything to heart. Immediately after Confirmation, my parents gave me the option to stop attending Mass. I took that offer and ran, rarely attending a service mostly out of laziness save for a few special occasions when my mom asked me to go with the family.

 

A few things happened along the way that began turning me away from the Church....

 

1.) One archdiocese in my state (Wisconsin) began piping in a speech by the archbishop of the region explaining how terrible homosexuality is. I'm quite straight, but I absolutely cannot fathom how God would have his followers hating other followers just because of a lifestyle HE supposedly gave to them! There's nothing wrong or deviant about it, and all of the hardcore holy rollers in the Church were ignoring the Golden Rule, one of the 10 Commandments, just to discriminate.

 

2.) The more time I spent away from Mass on Sundays, the more disapproving looks I'd get in town for not attending. I realized that God didn't love me any less for this. Why should he want us to sit in a manmade building for exactly one hour at least once a week?

 

3.) This last incident is completely laughable, but illustrates my point. I agreed to accompany my mom when she had to attend a last minute parish meeting being held in church one week night. I wasn't dressed for church, instead I was wearing jeans/tee shirt and a baseball hat. About five minutes into the meeting, a good family friend was turning around to look at me incessantly. When he caught my eye, he began furiously pointing at his head in a way to tell me something about my own. I had forgotten I was wearing a hat in God's House! Out of defiance, I pretended I couldn't hear him and ignored his frantic gestures. Then I realized my hat was that of Arizona State University, home of the Sun Devils. My hat depicted a cartoon devil with pitchfork! I just couldn't believe the lengths people go to convince themselves of the imminent fire and brimstone awaiting the savages like me.

 

 

Whew. So, fast forward a good 6 or 7 years to modern day. I still believe in the Christian God at the basest level, and I believe in Jesus as possibly divine in some ways but definitely just a great teacher and a good man. As I went through college, I began learning about various faith systems and trying to figure out how to fill that emptiness I felt inside. I liked so many faiths but still couldn't break from Christianity at heart. Though the followers had wrecked it for me, I still had faith in God and Jesus. I've always had a great reverance for nature and have always felt as though there's something *more* to the natural world as far as spiritual forces go. I began exploring the concepts under the term "Paganism" and found parts of Celtic Spirituality and Wicca to be similar to my heart's rhythms.

 

Now, after paragraph upon paragraph of rambling (sorry!), I've arrived at the crux of my concerns. I wish to follow my heart and seek the Nature Path of the God and Goddess, but I still have a very tangible hanging-on of my Christian upbringing in my conscience. I've moved past the whole "Don't believe in other Gods or you'll burn, kid!" aspect but a large issue is my relationship with my immediate family. They are happily Catholic and probably wouldn't handle me coming out and claiming to be Pagan. Also, it feels as though it would be treated as more of a rebellion than anything serious. I just can't believe in anything 100% yet, and it tears at me constantly. On one hand, I can feel God and Jesus watching me and loving me as though I'll return to their family in due time. On the other hand, I'm pulled hard toward the Pagan path, the path where I feel content and happy and accepting of my nature as a proud Pagan.

 

I guess what I'm hoping for is that anyone reading all of this (thank you, to the brave souls who persevered) can possibly relate and/or offer advice. A kind word or anything would mean a lot. I'm very sorry if my writing is all over the place...I endeavored to craft a post that was clear and concise and made a strong point, but my stream of consciousness took over and I began venting in a slapdash manner.

 

If I can clarify anything, I'd be happy to try to rephrase anything.

 

In short, I'm a Christian/former Christian who believes in the Pagan path but doesn't have hard enough feelings towards God/Jesus to turn them away. It's probably 95% doctrine brainwashing, but it's the other 5% "What If?" that eats at me.

 

 

 

~Russell

[wonderer]

I guess what I'm hoping for is that anyone reading all of this (thank you, to the brave souls who persevered) can possibly relate and/or offer advice. A kind word or anything would mean a lot. I'm very sorry if my writing is all over the place...I endeavored to craft a post that was clear and concise and made a strong point, but my stream of consciousness took over and I began venting in a slapdash manner.

 

If I can clarify anything, I'd be happy to try to rephrase anything.

 

In short, I'm a Christian/former Christian who believes in the Pagan path but doesn't have hard enough feelings towards God/Jesus to turn them away. It's probably 95% doctrine brainwashing, but it's the other 5% "What If?" that eats at me.

 

~Russell

 

Hi Russel,

 

Welcome to the stewpot! For what it's worth, my advice is to spend some quality time with yourself, and don't jump to another religion. From where I sit, all religions are fundamentally the same. They're the explainers. They're what you get when you sail to the edge of the map, at that spot that says, "Here be monsters." Try stepping over that line holding your own hand, with no religion at all. That's where you'll find what you're looking for.

 

My 2 cents.

 

 

Rob

[mahjong]

Well, all I can say is this: if you believe in hell then you had better continue to believe in Jesus dieing (sp?) on the cross for your sins.

 

Or you can logically decide there is no hell. In which case, you won't be needing a savior.

 

Just a thought!

 

Perhaps this is a great site to bat some ideas around.

 

Be a little crazy and take some chances... MJ

[MonolithTMA]

Dy-no-mite!

 

Welcome!

 

Of course, if you ever change your avatar my comment will make no sense.

[One_World]

Wonderer and mahjong:

 

You both make good points about the existence of religion and whether or not it's a valid belief. I've always been kind of lukewarm towards atheism or secular humanism because of the fact that I do believe in some sort of higher power. I also believe in spirits and other supernatural things, which doesn't exactly jive with the concept that I am man and I am alone in the universe.

 

On the other hand, I had no trouble shedding my former belief in the notion of Hell. If God exists, surely he wouldn't send any of his creations (us) to eternal damnation with his greatest enemy (something I also don't believe in).

 

I will consider walking the path alone for a while to learn more about myself without leaning on religion as a crutch. That's a novel idea!

 

MonolithTMA: I love the av because I like to imagine that my posts are being read in Jimmy Walker's voice. Dynomite! indeed.

[hereticzero]

You are 25 years old. Someone turn around and tell me how to dress at church would result in a big 'fuck you', from me to them. The public school my kid goes to doesn't tell me how to dress, neither is the local church, WalMart or anyone else, especially since I'm over 21. How I dress is my choice, not theirs.

 

Some answers to a few of your points:

 

1) The religion is manufactured and untrue in concept and detail. The church lies to get its way so ignore what you are told is sin. There is no sin. There are correct ways to behave in life and wrong ways according to one's own culture. The babble is a collection of ancient fairy tales.

 

2) You do not need a church building to commune with god. Even the babble says god does not live in houses made by the hands of man.

 

3) You are over 21, live like you want to live. Find out who you are and be that person.

 

Faith systems require one to ignore common sense and honest and true scientific discoveries in order to believe in the divine nature or prophecy of someone. Have faith in yourself.

[One_World]

But HereticZero, you don't understand. I was wearing a baseball hat with a devil on it in a HOUSE OF GOD! I was doing Satan's work!

 

I didn't take to heart the well-meaning zombie's directives to take my cursed hat off in a manmade building. I certainly didn't obey him or anyone. I didn't say "Fuck you", but he understood I wasn't listening. I just found it to be a hilarious situation if he didn't think he was acting as God's own messenger. Nevermind, that makes it more hilarious.

 

Thank you for the points in your message, I appreciate the honest input. I realize I'm coming off as a sissy...it's not that I'm afraid of searching for faith because of fear of my parents or society...it's more that I respect them and don't wish to upset the apple cart so blatantly.

 

I especially agree that a church building is nothing more than a manmade structure, no different than a warehouse.

[Robbobrob]

I had a Catholic friend in college who did not want to go to church, but did not want to fight with his parents, so he'd go to church, and sit in he parking lot, reading a book, until service was over.

 

This worked well for him until one day a family friend saw him and ratted him out to his parents. And he had the fight he was avoiding. And stopped the sharade of going to church.

 

Moral of the story, if you try to please everyone, you will end up pleasing no one, including yourself.

[One_World]

Good call. I like to think I'm a step above that...I don't attend Mass unless my parents ask (which is very rare, less than once a year I'd say). They know I dislike it and leave me alone. It's just another step to really cut the Christian ties in spirit I guess.

 

Your story reminded me of one of my own: late in high school after I had stopped attending, my girlfriend at the time had really strict religious parents. They would let her go to church on her own, but would quiz her later that day/night about the gospel or homily for the day. Of course, we wanted nothing to do with attending Mass. We eventually went to her church one Sunday evening, walked in, left with a hymnal and planner (to know which readings were done that day), and kept it under the seat of her car for a year or so. Eventually her dad found it and the shit hit the fan of course. She's now proudly atheist (go figure!). I've stolen from a church before to help someone else lie about attending...if that's not grounds for hell I don't know what is!

 

On a side note, I greatly enjoy the idea of your blog in your sig. I'm going to check it out.

[alpha centauri]

Welcome, One World!

 

I was an evangelical myself, and there's a lot of peer pressure in that line of faith, so I know a little of where you're coming from.

 

As I started to drift away from religion, I left the Southern Baptist church (where the Bible was taken very literally), and went to the Methodist church my wife attends (not as extreme, but it still taught the Christ/god stuff as reality, which I had begun to doubt). I just became uncomfortable attending, because it was going through the motions, and because I no longer believed.

 

Then, I saw myself as a deist, someone who believes there is a god, but she/he or it is no longer involved in the day-to-day minutia.

 

Now, I doubt the existence of god at all. But if there is a god, then he/she/it has clearly left us to our own devices.

 

And any god who demands worship, who supposedly killed most of creation in a flood, who ordered his chosen to commit genocide in obtaining the land he had supposedly given them (including killing all the women, children and even livestock) and who also would damn people to an eternal hell — well, that's a monstrous tyrant not worthy of worship.

 

Anyway, glad to see you on these message boards. I hope you find a lot of fruitful and thought-provoking discussion here.

 

All the best,

 

Alpha Centauri

[MonolithTMA]

And any god who demands worship, who supposedly killed most of creation in a flood, who ordered his chosen to commit genocide in obtaining the land he had supposedly given them (including killing all the women, children and even livestock) and who also would damn people to an eternal hell — well, that's a monstrous tyrant not worthy of worship.

 

But they were wicked women, children and livestock!

 

Don't forget the pregnant women too! They had wicked fetuses!

 

Ok, a really good name for a band would be Wicked Fetus! Ok, I Googled the name and of course it was taken. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...endid=313087377

[florduh]

Welcome!

 

I hope you benefit from your stay here.

 

If you believe there is a supernatural realm, please show me some evidence. Or is it just unfounded belief? If so, you might benefit from a study of critical thinking.

 

Meantime, your family doesn't love or respect you, but the man you're pretending to be. Give them a chance to know the real you.

[par4dcourse]

Welcome One_World. Hope you enjoy the site.

 

I'm an old hippie, and I believe there's a r&r lyric for any situation. I'm thinking Black Oak Arkansas "Lord have mercy on my soul" for this one.\

 

Best of Luck

--Larry

[Deva]

You both make good points about the existence of religion and whether or not it's a valid belief. I've always been kind of lukewarm towards atheism or secular humanism because of the fact that I do believe in some sort of higher power. I also believe in spirits and other supernatural things, which doesn't exactly jive with the concept that I am man and I am alone in the universe.

 

Welcome One World!

 

There are some of us here, including myself, that also have beliefs as you describe. If you want to, it would be interesting to me if you would post further details about your beliefs and your exploration of paganism in the "Theism and Spirituality" forum.

 

I don't really see any logical reason why anyone would think they are alone in the universe. It is vast beyond imagining. Is science a complete description of reality? I don't think so. It is only as good as the human brains that are behind it. Which is not to say that I reject what science has discovered so far as unequivocal fact.

[One_World]

alpha centauri: Our path out of Christianity seems similar in a lot of ways. The god many Christians worship has committed horrendous atrocities (and allowed millions others to occur, thinking of VT on today, the one year anniversary). Try telling the families of the 32 students and faculty killed by a crazed gunman one year ago that God works in mysterious ways and that we must have faith. BS. I guess I could consider myself something of a deist now, based on how you described it. I believe in a higher power but I don't think it influences everyday life. Nothing makes me laugh harder than when I see a professional athlete point to the sky after a big play, as if god cares who wins the Sunday matchup between LA and New York.

 

florduh: My belief in the supernatural realm stems from my belief in spirits. Please, feel free to laugh but I've had far too many personal experiences with so-called ghosts to claim we're alone in this world. If you can explain the theory of ghosts without saying it's just sleight of hand tricks on a grander level, I'd be interested to hear the truth. I'm not irrational in general, but I believe in the existence (and persistence) of the soul as a key ingredient to the human condition. Having said all of that, I do agree with you: I'm curious to know what kind of person I would become with a less superstitious world view. You certainly gave me food for thought, thank you!

 

par4dcourse: Nice to meet you, I'm kind of a young hippie. That's a fine lyric and I see your meaning, but I think this one (though a bit overrated) is more fitting:

 

The child is grown,

The dream is gone.

I have become comfortably numb.

[One_World]

I'd also like to add:

 

Thank you to everyone who has replied and thanks especially for the welcomes...much appreciated.

 

Peace,

Russell

[wonderer]

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but is meant to be food for thought for people trying to get free of religious programming, and the guilt associated with it. For what it's worth...

 

It seems to me that there are three major groups who frequent these forums. Group 1: people raised in Christianity who got out (or want to get out, or want to be free from guilt); Group 2: people who deliberately chose to become Christians and want the same things as Group 1; and Group 3: people who are seeking a replacement for Christianity. Of course, there is also a Group 4: Christians lurking here who are looking for ways to recapture people who have fallen away, or who fancy themselves as God's Warriors fighting the good fight against Satan, but I believe this group is very small.

 

I'm in Group 2. I've been religiously "sober" for around 5 years, and left the Pentecostal church roughly 27 years ago. What I mean by religiously sober is that I don't subscribe to any "ism" at all. I'm not an Atheist or Humanist or Agnostic, and I'm not seeking a religion that explains the universe. I'm quite content to simply be myself. Some would say that I have no firm footing upon which to stand, theologically, and that's perfectly OK with me. I take that as a sign of success. It took a lot of work to get here.

 

It is not for me to try to talk anyone out of a particular religious conviction, although I do believe that everyone has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, as long as it's not at the expense of someone else's life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. That said, I have observed that people trying to extricate themselves from a deep Christian programming tend to grasp at straws, and flail about, looking for something they can hold onto to ease the pain of withdrawal. That seems natural and healthy to me, as long as it isn't simply another religion. Jumping from one religion to another is like jumping from one romantic entanglement to another because you're afraid to be alone.

 

My prescription for full deliverance from religious oppression is to find non-religious substitutions for those benefits lost when leaving the church. Otherwise, the abrupt severance of all of those connections can simply overwhelm someone emotionally, and lead to less-productive crutches. Miss helping those less fortunate? Volunteer at your local library, homeless shelter or charity. Miss fellowship? Join a service club or find a hobby and join a club devoted to it. Miss music? Take music lessons. Miss studying the bible? Take courses at your local university that have nothing to do with religion.

 

The bottom line to my advice is to give your theological "muscles" a rest. When you leave Christianity, you're in the habit of thinking that there's an explanation for everything, because Christianity (or any religion, actually) earns its keep by supplying those answers - whether they are pure nonsense or not. I'm living proof that you don't need packaged answers to Grand Questions to be content and happy, but to get here, I did, in fact, have to seek something I had no control over, and that was simply the passage of time. Time truly is the greatest medicine - but only if you let it do its work.

 

Give yourself time to learn how to be at peace within yourself. Try some non-religious counseling or therapy with a good psychologist who will help you get to know yourself, and become free of guilt. My rule of thumb is that healing takes at least one year away from a fundamentalist religion for every year you were in it. Don't rush to define yourself and your view of the universe by yet another man-made collection of answers. It's OK not to know what's around the corner, or how we got here, or why we exist. Give yourself time to get to know yourself without those filters, and you have a shot at finding peace. It might take the rest of your life to find it, but the peace you find will be real, and more import - all yours.

 

Rob

[One_World]

Deep down I feel I'm a mix of Group 1 and Group 3. You gave a ton of good points to consider and for that I thank you. I cannot say that giving my "theological" muscles a rest is going to work, at least not initially. I see this world as having more than one layer, I believe in a veil that separates what we can ascertain with logic and what we cannot yet grasp. I believe in karma, silly as it sounds.

 

I really don't miss anything tangible about the Catholic Church...I certainly never enjoyed the ceremonies or anything. I disagreed almost from the start with several sacraments, most of all Confession and Last Rites. I probably have a distorted view of myself, but I'm not sure what I want to replace from Christianity in my life...perhaps just the belief in a higher power. *shrugs*

 

One huge issue for me is animal welfare. I always felt that Catholicism didn't address that topic enough in their doctrine because they were too worried about gays and abortion and stem cell research. I'd like to..../// I just had a bit of a breakthough on a critical thinking level! I was typing something about how I'd like to be a part of a religion that has greater respect for animals, when I realized I don't need a religion to believe that. Thanks!

 

I do feel very drawn to many aspects of general paganism (I know, umbrella term). Ideally I'd like to practice a very relaxed form of it where I respect and appreciate the natural world and the energy that emanates from the wind, water, landscape. I don't get too into the ideas of rituals and covens and such, probably because of the same reason I dislike the Catholic Mass.

 

One thing I have to say is that I've only met one "public" atheist in my group of friends over the years and she was of the sort that would say, "OMG the priests love kids LOLZ God suxxx". I didn't appreciate that because there was just too much anger. I'm not angry at God or the Christian religion...I think if the idea of God helps people to live their lives better, that's great. If the idea of God makes people declare war and judge others because of what a book suggests is right, that's not great. I'm a fan of God, not organized Christianity. Anyways, back on point. Almost everyone who has responded in this thread has definitely given me the impression that he/she would self-identify as atheist or at least a non-God follower (not a real phrase, I know). And everyone has given good input and opened my eyes and made me think. That's so valuable in life, to be able to think about oneself with a more critical eye. Thank you!

 

Wonderer, that was a great post and I appreciate the time you put in. Lots to think about, thanks!

[Guest Aosoth]

One_World:

 

Welcome! I used to be in the Assembly of God church and am now proudly Pagan. I've had the guilt thing too, believe me--still fighting it now. But I'm not likely to return to Christianity, at least not that brand of it. I'd recommend looking up information on deprogramming, it may be useful.

[One_World]

Aosoth-Thank you! Nice to meet you. You've traveled the path I hope to. I'll look up more on deprogramming....it's funny, I never bought into much of the literal teaching and didn't think I had much deprogramming to do after being spiritually apathetic for 8 years...I'm finding out here that the rabbit hole goes deeper than I imagined! Thank you for your input.

 

Peace,

Russell

[Guest Aosoth]

Aosoth-Thank you! Nice to meet you. You've traveled the path I hope to. I'll look up more on deprogramming....it's funny, I never bought into much of the literal teaching and didn't think I had much deprogramming to do after being spiritually apathetic for 8 years...I'm finding out here that the rabbit hole goes deeper than I imagined! Thank you for your input.

 

Peace,

Russell

No problem. Glad I could be of help.