Would You Still Worship God, Even If You Knew You Were Going To Be Sent To Hell Anyway?

[Hrothwulf]

Just like the topic says. Would you? I'm not interested in hearing "But that's not the case!" or "But God wouldn't do that!" This is hypothetical.

 

Simply, even if you knew God would send you to burn in Hell for eternity, would you still worship Him because he "deserves it"?

[MonolithTMA]

Just like the topic says. Would you? I'm not interested in hearing "But that's not the case!" or "But God wouldn't do that!" This is hypothetical.

 

Simply, even if you knew God would send you to burn in Hell for eternity, would you still worship Him because he "deserves it"?

 

I'm not sure how I would find out that God was sending me to hell even though I was devoted to him, but if I were devoted to him and I did find out that he was sending me to hell anyway, then no, of course I wouldn't worship him, because he would be a lying bastard.

[hereticzero]

God hasn't shown he deserves our worship and if he did it is not worth spending eternity with the biggest bunch of liars and cut throats that ever lived. Eternity in heaven is not worth spending with christians.

[Michael]

Simply, even if you knew God would send you to burn in Hell for eternity, would you still worship Him because he "deserves it"?

 

 

As a xian I would have tried to get out of this question, because it implies, that I could "really" go to hell. I think I would have given a politically correct answer and said "Yes! Certainly! He deserves our worship, even when the entire world would go to hell. He deserves worship, because he deserves it." Maybe in my quiet room I might have thought something different.

 

But now, I really do not care about an answer to the question.

 

I guess this is that kind of question, that xians do not want to answer.

[ogilvy]

Just like the topic says. Would you? I'm not interested in hearing "But that's not the case!" or "But God wouldn't do that!" This is hypothetical.

 

Simply, even if you knew God would send you to burn in Hell for eternity, would you still worship Him because he "deserves it"?

no, if i was still a christian, and i knew God would send me to burn in hell, i wouldnt be able to worship him. in fact, knowing he would send other people to hell, even if not myself, i found i couldnt love or worship God. i wouldnt love or approve of a human who did that. theres nothing in such cruelty to inspire worship, only loathing.

[florduh]

Worship who?

[Guest eejay]

Absolutely NOT!!!

[Ouroboros]

Simply, even if you knew God would send you to burn in Hell for eternity, would you still worship Him because he "deserves it"?

Probably not until someone could explain why he would "deserve" it. What is the foundation for it?

[R. S. Martin]

Simply, even if you knew God would send you to burn in Hell for eternity, would you still worship Him because he "deserves it"?

Probably not until someone could explain why he would "deserve" it. What is the foundation for it?

 

I don't know what they taught in your church. I would guess for people from a OSAS tradition this would make no sense. But the tradition I'm from, this isn't such a far stretch. You serve/worship God just because. Same as you do your parents, church, and any other authority. It's the way the world works and you do it. Or else.

 

The "or else" in the here and now is somehow more convincing than an eternity in hell after death.

 

I was taught that we don't know whether or not we will get into heaven. It seemed the likelihood of getting into heaven was considerably less than the likelihood of getting into hell. However, not serving/worshipping God was not an option. To even think of not serving/worshiping god was taboo or anathema. God was part of reality. If you chose not to serve him you would go to hell for sure. If you chose to serve him, you stood an outside chance of being accepted into hell. But any decent person would serve God.

 

My question was not "Should we serve God?" but "How do we know God exists?" Unless and until we can establish that God exists, whether or not he should be served is irrelevant. That's the way my logic goes, for what it's worth.

[Antlerman]

I asked a variant of this question before in this topic: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...c=19496&hl=

 

It adds of bit of a spin to it to ask if someone knowing God was planning to actually torture them eternally, no matter what they did, would they still be inclined to worship him? If they said yes, you'd have to ask why? If they said no, to me the question that would follow that then would be to ask if that if they're saved from hell, isn't it the height of selfishness to worship a god that would torture anyone else eternally? It's not about that God and they're respect of him then.

[Ouroboros]

Simply, even if you knew God would send you to burn in Hell for eternity, would you still worship Him because he "deserves it"?

Probably not until someone could explain why he would "deserve" it. What is the foundation for it?

 

I don't know what they taught in your church. I would guess for people from a OSAS tradition this would make no sense. But the tradition I'm from, this isn't such a far stretch. You serve/worship God just because. Same as you do your parents, church, and any other authority. It's the way the world works and you do it. Or else.

Thanks for the answer Ruby.

 

I do think you have two arguments in there, one is the "just because" or without reason, which means God doesn't deserve worship, but rather you worship just because you should worship. To say something or someone "deserve" something, you have to establish on what grounds this "deserving" comes from. "To deserve" is a badly chosen word, unless it can be made to have a foundation.

 

The second argument you give is the "or else", which isn't a "just because" argument. So now we're actually getting somewhere. The OP argument was, if you would worship God even if you would go to Hell. This means, to the OP question, that "or else" doesn't apply. There is no "or else" if you already will go to Hell, regardless if you worship or not. If however the worship did alter the outcome, then "or else" would be a valid "deserve" argument, but since that was removed in one of the premises, it can't be used in this situation. Right?

 

The OP question is a peculiar and special situation, and not the regular "I'm a Christian and I worship God because of this or that reason", but the OP question is a unique case where you would know that you are going to Hell, but you would worship God anyway because of some undefined reason. What would that reason be?

 

The "or else" in the here and now is somehow more convincing than an eternity in hell after death.

So you're referring to "or else" as present in our own life and time, here on Earth? Basically God will punish you with a volcano, unless you worship him? Well, that could be a valid argument to support the "deserve worship".

 

My question was not "Should we serve God?" but "How do we know God exists?" Unless and until we can establish that God exists, whether or not he should be served is irrelevant. That's the way my logic goes, for what it's worth.

True. That is the real question, but the OP is putting us in a thought experiment in a word we know doesn't exist, but the question is "if"... so if God did exist, and we did know he did exist, and we did know we're going to Hell, for what reason would we worship him, unless as you allude to that he would give us pain and suffering in this world, even before we go to Hell. Maybe he would actually keep us from dying, just so he can torture us more and make us worship him even more? Just a thought...

[upstarter]

Antlerman, you have hit on exactly the reason for my ultimate deconversion. I simply could not spend my life serving a god or a religion that said that really good people, who cared and made a difference in the world, were going to endure eternal torture because they didn't believe in Jesus as their lord and saviour.

 

It took many years to get to a place where I actually could say I think the whole thing is a bunch or hooey and god and Jesus are just mythology. But it didn't take me long to disassociate with the xtian hell.

 

To more specifically address the OP. I got nothing positive from being xtian. I felt guilt almost all the time. I waited patiently and prayed fervently for years for that blissful feeling I was supposed to have. It never came. If it wasn't for the "get out of hell free" card there would have been nothing in xtianty to make me stay, other than the kinds of familial pressures Ruby talked about. But even the familial pressures in my family come from my mother's fear of any one of us going to hell. It always comes back to that.

 

Heather

[LtJayson]

I was so indoctrinated towards the start of my "ministry" that I would have said yes. And THAT scares me looking back. It had nothing to do with saving myself from hell, I believed that I was worshipping something amazing and salvation had no part of it. Boy, looking back I could kick the old me hard! haha! What a question to really get someone thingking!

[L.B.]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but there was a Puritan author who actually said that. He actually said that even if god were going to damn him, even if all his praise and prayer and tithing and all were false and useless, he would worship his gawd anyway because he is "so worthy". Worthy? Yeah, of a kick in the fucking balls, he's worthy. So are most of his follower-sheep.

[Robbobrob]

God stopped deserving it when I started to hold him to the same high level I hold any person who claims authority over me. I have high standards for those who presume to lead me, adn the Biblical God fails those simple manmade standards. If he can't meet those standards, then the concept he is perfect goes right out the window.

 

I have had people tell me, "you can't apply human standards to God." If he can't even muster the level of standard a measly human can come up with, then how can he even be considered divine at all.

 

No, even if he told me I was goign to go to Heaven if I worship him, I'd tell him he has yet to prove being worthy to go to my Heaven.

[L.B.]

You know, rob, your words reminded me of a comment my wife made to me a few months back, while I was still working for a church. (Don't ask; long story.)

 

She said she knew what one of my problems was: that I could not submit to the authority of a pastor that I did not respect intellectually. (Fucking-A right, too!) I told her then and tell her any time the subject comes up... I have yet to meet a pastor that I did not eventually think of as slower than me in the brains department.

 

Example: One pastor tried to correct me because he thought there was a difference between Levi (The name of 'gospel' writer 'Matthew') and Levite (as in a member of, or descendent from, that tribe). He seemed to think that Matthew 'Levi' was not a member of the tribe of Levi because he was not literally a Hebrew priest. Duh.

 

Example: Last 'pastor' I worked for couldn't even manage the Engligh language, and he supposedly has degrees. He used words like deuto-romo-nee and would tell people to "be rest assured".

 

I guess when we can't even expect his representatives to be worth a shit, we can't expect much of the big guy, either, y'know?

[Deva]

God stopped deserving it when I started to hold him to the same high level I hold any person who claims authority over me. I have high standards for those who presume to lead me, adn the Biblical God fails those simple manmade standards. If he can't meet those standards, then the concept he is perfect goes right out the window.

 

Agreed.

 

Yet Christians will insist that morals have their origin with God and that there is no such thing as "relativity of morals". Any God that gives out moral standards which he himself will not abide by does not get my respect, much less worship.

 

Why should I worship an entity, no matter how high and mighty and holy, that thinks I deserve to go to hell simply by being born? He is supposed to be the creator,but he let the world (his own creation) be overrun by evil according to the Babble.

[R. S. Martin]

Jayson and L.B., thanks for your replies. I knew the answer had to be yes, but I didn't have the theological or apologetical basis in the literature to actually say so. And it does sound absolutely ridiculous.

 

Hans, I'll come back to your post later. I'm looking for something else and don't want to get sidetracked.

[Ouroboros]

Well, the issue is if the word "deserve" is defined as "worthiness caused by merit" or "un-merited worthiness". And I guess it would have to be the second in this scenario. God somehow would be worthy to be praised, even if he will send us all to Hell. Basically, worthy out of necessity and power, or sufficient importance, but without any requirement to why. But even then, would I? No. If God would send me to Hell regardless, and even based on non-merited worthiness or importance of worship, I would most likely refuse to do it, in sheer protest, to his unjust character.

[R. S. Martin]

Hans, I have some half-cooked theories that I will insert in red at various places.

 

Simply, even if you knew God would send you to burn in Hell for eternity, would you still worship Him because he "deserves it"?

Probably not until someone could explain why he would "deserve" it. What is the foundation for it?

 

I don't know what they taught in your church. I would guess for people from a OSAS tradition this would make no sense. But the tradition I'm from, this isn't such a far stretch. You serve/worship God just because. Same as you do your parents, church, and any other authority. It's the way the world works and you do it. Or else.

Thanks for the answer Ruby.

 

I do think you have two arguments in there, one is the "just because" or without reason, which means God doesn't deserve worship, but rather you worship just because you should worship. To say something or someone "deserve" something, you have to establish on what grounds this "deserving" comes from. "To deserve" is a badly chosen word, unless it can be made to have a foundation.

 

The second argument you give is the "or else", which isn't a "just because" argument. So now we're actually getting somewhere. The OP argument was, if you would worship God even if you would go to Hell. This means, to the OP question, that "or else" doesn't apply. There is no "or else" if you already will go to Hell, regardless if you worship or not. If however the worship did alter the outcome, then "or else" would be a valid "deserve" argument, but since that was removed in one of the premises, it can't be used in this situation. Right?

 

The OP question is a peculiar and special situation, and not the regular "I'm a Christian and I worship God because of this or that reason", but the OP question is a unique case where you would know that you are going to Hell, but you would worship God anyway because of some undefined reason. What would that reason be?

 

The "or else" in the here and now is somehow more convincing than an eternity in hell after death.

So you're referring to "or else" as present in our own life and time, here on Earth? Basically God will punish you with a volcano, unless you worship him? Well, that could be a valid argument to support the "deserve worship".

 

The "or else" means in this life, but not natural dissaster, Hans. Remember I come from a church that takes 1 Cor. 5 literally over and beyond the sins listed. They will use excommunication, and lesser forms of church discipline (various degrees of shame and social ostracization), to keep members in line. That is the "or else." A major sin is assuming an unsubmissive attitude. I think the entire culture and theology is built on the feudal system, though this is only my guess. In feudal soceity, the manor lord is at the top of the immediate community. (The emperor, king, or pope might be off in some far distant land ruling over them, or not, depending on where in Europe the feudal community is situated. I will here limit the community to the immediate locale.) At the bottom are the landless peasants, serfs, and slaves. Status varied from region to region.

 

You were born into your "station" of life. I think the feudal social order roughly followed that of the Roman Empire. The lords approximately equaled the aristocrats. Aristocrat boys had to be trained from early childhood how to bear themselves appropriately for their station in life. It was their duty both to be the lords of society and function in the highly competitive society of the aristocrats, and also to treat the masses of the lower classes in such a way that they would not rebel and take over the wealthy aristocrats, who were few in number.

 

I understand that in feudal society, the "social contract" was such that the lower classes served the lords in return for protection from bands of robbers and vandals roaming the land. I've been reading historical records of the period about 800-1200. I think they call this the High Middle Ages. By the High Middle Ages the system of military contracts and knights, princedoms, counties, etc., in the Germanic and Frankish lands was highly developed. The peasants (which included serfs, slaves, etc.) were attached to the land and could switch hands with the land overnight depending on the dealings of some dashing young lords in a distant castle. This could depend on how a hunt or battle or other sport had gone. Life was cheap, short, and brutish.

 

The contracts included a certain number of days of labour each serf was due to his lord. They also included how many days, and what kind of labour/service, one lord/count/prince was due another per year. Another very important part of the contracts included military loyalty. If you were a peasant harvesting your own measly strip of land, hoping to get enough (after taxes which were perhaps a third of the crop to the manor) to keep yourself and family alive for another year (forget about well-fed), and your lord's neighbour's cousin's friend had a major battle to fight in which you were sworn to help, you and your crop can look out for themselves.

 

Let's transpose the social order with the heavenly order.

 

manor-lord=God

serf=human

 

The church leadership fits in between somewhere. Things happen in life, we don't know why and we can never know or understand. All we know is that hay grew and that we must harvest it when the sun shines. The other thing we know is that if the lord suddenly calls us to arms we must go. Why? Just because he says so. He deserves to be served. Why? Just because he is the lord.

 

Hans, I think I see a malnourished mind at work here. A mind that is so deprived of the necessities of life, and also severely deprived emotionally, so that it is barely functions above that of the brute beasts.

 

I never thought of it this way before. It's almost as though a missing piece of the puzzle fell into place. I'll have to think about this some more. But it would fit for a lot of other things I know regarding life of the poor and down-trodden, esp. for the thousand years between the Roman Empire and the Enlightenment.

My question was not "Should we serve God?" but "How do we know God exists?" Unless and until we can establish that God exists, whether or not he should be served is irrelevant. That's the way my logic goes, for what it's worth.

True. That is the real question, but the OP is putting us in a thought experiment in a word we know doesn't exist, but the question is "if"... so if God did exist, and we did know he did exist, and we did know we're going to Hell, for what reason would we worship him, unless as you allude to that he would give us pain and suffering in this world, even before we go to Hell. Maybe he would actually keep us from dying, just so he can torture us more and make us worship him even more? Just a thought...

 

Well, the issue is if the word "deserve" is defined as "worthiness caused by merit" or "un-merited worthiness". And I guess it would have to be the second in this scenario. God somehow would be worthy to be praised, even if he will send us all to Hell. Basically, worthy out of necessity and power, or sufficient importance, but without any requirement to why. But even then, would I? No. If God would send me to Hell regardless, and even based on non-merited worthiness or importance of worship, I would most likely refuse to do it, in sheer protest, to his unjust character.

 

I think the argument can be made that the Reformation in the early 1500s (when the Lutherans, Anabaptists, and others, broke off from the Catholics) was a rebellion of the masses against the lords. And I think the invention of the printing press in the late 1400s, making information easily available to the masses, had a lot to do with this. Others have made these arguments. You said you would rebel. I guess that is what happened.

 

Sorry, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread yet. And this post didn't turn out quite like I thought it would. As you know, I don't believe in God. I think the idea of hell under any circumstances is evil. I hope the lamentable existence of the peasants of the High Middle Ages will never be repeated, though I guess it is being repeated in other parts of the world today. But I think a religion based on such circumstances does not make things better. In addition, I think using a religion inherited from, and justified by, such conditions to solve world problems today is a serious disservice to humanity as a whole. I think, however, that it can explain where some of the ideas of Christianity may have come from. There is an outside chance that someone somewhere will become disillusioned regarding their religion.

[chefranden]

Sometimes I tell Christians that I'm obeying God by not believing in him and that I do so for their own good. I explain that after 40 years on my knees in service without God making his presence known to me, I came to the conclusion that I was chosen as a vessel of destruction. As such it is my God given duty to not believe in the existence of God so that they (the Christian) will be able to witness God's Glory all the better. I then tell them that I believe that I obey God much better in my duty then they obey God in theirs.

 

I don't know if obedience could be taken as worship in this context, but I find myself obedient to a non-existent god that promises to send me to hell for that obedience in order that others will enjoy heaven all the more.

[Hrothwulf]

Well, like, this topic is actually for Christians, really. I mean, of course an ex-Christian wouldn't do it, but my question is for all those Christians who worship God "because glory is His due" or something.

[Tabula Rasa]

Antlerman, you have hit on exactly the reason for my ultimate deconversion. I simply could not spend my life serving a god or a religion that said that really good people, who cared and made a difference in the world, were going to endure eternal torture because they didn't believe in Jesus as their lord and saviour.

 

It took many years to get to a place where I actually could say I think the whole thing is a bunch or hooey and god and Jesus are just mythology. But it didn't take me long to disassociate with the xtian hell.

 

 

Heather

 

Upstarter, the idea of good people going to hell is what ultimately led me to deconvert as well.

 

If the christian god existed and was going to send everyone to hell, then whether in this life , or in hell, humankind would have a great commision. That being to unite and figure out a way to KILL the psychotic fucker. If the creator of the universe was that monstrous, it would be our duty as rational, yet justice seeking beings to try and make him pay the ultimate price. Given the odds, we might fail, but the attempt would be worth the cost.

[Crazycatlady]

NO!