Association, Disassociation

[Guest end3]

I am thinking that regardless of associations, belief/non-belief, real or imagined, that there seems to be a moral trend that has steadily evolved through different avenues that in essence defines life during the period in which we are born. I am at a slight point of frustration with the different "associations" regarding the best way to understand and pursue this "height" we are striving to understand and practice.

 

I don't know that it is a simple function that we can define through a limited association. There are many good minds here, somebody please clue me in....

 

In other words, regardless of where we place ourselves, I don't think we are getting it..

 

Going to go read Ecclesiates again...

[Legion]

End as usual I don't understand what you are trying to say. But I think you need to listen to this...

 

Three Little Birds by Bob Marley... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnDrbagYm24

 

Dont worry about a thing,

cause every little thing gonna be all right.

Singin: dont worry about a thing,

cause every little thing gonna be all right!

 

Rise up this mornin,

Smiled with the risin sun,

Three little birds

Pitch by my doorstep

Singin sweet songs

Of melodies pure and true,

Sayin, (this is my message to you-ou-ou:)

 

Singin: dont worry bout a thing,

cause every little thing gonna be all right.

Singin: dont worry (dont worry) bout a thing,

cause every little thing gonna be all right!

 

Rise up this mornin,

Smiled with the risin sun,

Three little birds

Pitch by my doorstep

Singin sweet songs

Of melodies pure and true,

Sayin, this is my message to you-ou-ou:

 

Singin: dont worry about a thing, worry about a thing, oh!

Every little thing gonna be all right. dont worry!

Singin: dont worry about a thing - I wont worry!

cause every little thing gonna be all right.

 

Singin: dont worry about a thing,

cause every little thing gonna be all right - I wont worry!

Singin: dont worry about a thing,

cause every little thing gonna be all right.

Singin: dont worry about a thing, oh no!

cause every little thing gonna be all right!

[Guest Net Eng]

I am thinking that regardless of associations, belief/non-belief, real or imagined, that there seems to be a moral trend that has steadily evolved through different avenues that in essence defines life during the period in which we are born. I am at a slight point of frustration with the different "associations" regarding the best way to understand and pursue this "height" we are striving to understand and practice.

 

I'd go with the Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure philosophy:

 

"Be excellent to each other"

 

How much more complicated do you need ?

[MonolithTMA]

I'd go with the Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure philosophy:

 

"Be excellent to each other"

 

How much more complicated do you need ?

 

"And... PARTY ON, DUDES!"

[chefranden]

1. I am thinking that regardless of associations, belief/non-belief, real or imagined, that there seems to be a moral trend that has steadily evolved through different avenues that in essence defines life during the period in which we are born.

 

2. I am at a slight point of frustration with the different "associations" regarding the best way to understand and pursue this "height" we are striving to understand and practice.

 

3. I don't know that it is a simple function that we can define through a limited association. There are many good minds here, somebody please clue me in....

 

4.In other words, regardless of where we place ourselves, I don't think we are getting it..

 

5. Going to go read Ecclesiates again...

 

1. I'd like to respond, but I'm not much of a mind reader. What ever you are thinking here (culture?) you haven't made it clear.

 

2. Are you looking for an authority to direct you to the heights? There is no best way to the moral heights if that's what you mean. However, there are some bad routes, and these tend to be those routes defined by religion.

 

3. You have to give better clues as to what you are getting at here.

 

4. Clarity makes "getting it" easier.

 

5. Whatever for?

[Guest end3]

To clarify...I don't believe we are comprehending that it doesn't matter what group we belong to...Christians, ex-Christians, the purple people-eaters society....that this is secondary to grace and understanding. Additionally, what I am saying is I am not the one who developed these moral codes that we have saddled ourselves with. I am just stating that "life" as we know it is based on being born into the set of codes at the time in which you were born.....always changing. I am just frustrated that there are no simple answers to make me feel comfortable. I was stating that life is probably not a simple function that one can grasp and say, "yeah, glad I got that straight".

 

The bible says the life is in the blood....so I went and looked up the functions of blood.....Again, no simple answers, blood does a myriad of things.

 

I am starting to believe food is a truth. The food I like is a truth to me, and possibly sharing my food, if you should happen to like the same damn thing I do, otherwise, we might need to form a ex-food that end3 doesn't like association. Condemmed men get a last meal, Jesus had the last supper....I think I will call Andy Rooney.....

[R. S. Martin]

To clarify...I don't believe we are comprehending that it doesn't matter what group we belong to...Christians, ex-Christians, the purple people-eaters society....that this is secondary to grace and understanding. Additionally, what I am saying is I am not the one who developed these moral codes that we have saddled ourselves with. I am just stating that "life" as we know it is based on being born into the set of codes at the time in which you were born.....always changing. I am just frustrated that there are no simple answers to make me feel comfortable. I was stating that life is probably not a simple function that one can grasp and say, "yeah, glad I got that straight".

 

I think I smell an evangelist in disguise. Whether we are Christians or cannibals is secondary to grace and understanding??? I'll bet you're talking about "spiritual understanding." Grace that doesn't care about cannibalism sounds about like the kind of thing the OT god is famous for. And "moral codes" people are "born into" as opposed to knowing by virture of being human--sounds so like a blinded Christian. And that last sentence sounds like a Christian trying very hard, but failing utterly, at identifying with us heathens.

 

The bible says the life is in the blood....so I went and looked up the functions of blood.....Again, no simple answers, blood does a myriad of things.

 

He's definitely going by the Bible. The looking up of the functions of blood is probably just for show to make it appear like he's doing deep and complicated science.

 

I am starting to believe food is a truth. The food I like is a truth to me, and possibly sharing my food, if you should happen to like the same damn thing I do, otherwise, we might need to form a ex-food that end3 doesn't like association. Condemmed men get a last meal, Jesus had the last supper....I think I will call Andy Rooney.....

 

Another lame attempt at identifying with the heathens but unfailingly bringing in the Bible and Jesus and, of course, death to remind us that our confrontation with hell is inevitable. How low will they stoop?!?!

[Guest end3]

To the contrary Ruby, I was thinking how close I am to losing my Christianity....

[florduh]

To the contrary Ruby, I was thinking how close I am to losing my Christianity....

 

De-converting was the answer for us. I hope you find a comfortable place somewhere. It looks like you've outgrown Christianity.

 

- Chris

[Antlerman]

Topic moved per End3's request. Original intent to post in Colosseum.

[Guest end3]

Thank you Florduh,

I was thinking after Ruby's post, why is it necessary for me to now conform to the unbelief group, and is it not equally controlling of this group, just like the group from which I come? I think Reboot may have a point here about trashing the framework. And what is the framework? ....are we bound my morals passed on from an evolving society, is this the only way, is there another?

[par4dcourse]

Thank you Florduh,

I was thinking after Ruby's post, why is it necessary for me to now conform to the unbelief group, and is it not equally controlling of this group, just like the group from which I come? I think Reboot may have a point here about trashing the framework. And what is the framework? ....are we bound my morals passed on from an evolving society, is this the only way, is there another?

There is no "unbelief group" or some set of standards. You're making something very simple into something difficult. This is ex-c, so we obviously (stay with me here) don't believe in gawd or the wholly babble. Other than that, which is kind of the purpose of the sight, there's nothing imposed on anyone. You can believe in nothing, or the FSM, or the invisible pink unicorn. Just leave jebus and your bible at home.

Just say no to yeshua.

[florduh]

And what is the framework?

 

Everyone thinks and acts within a framework. Even 'boot. He pretends to be above all that.

 

We are where we are, we know what we know, and we think/act accordingly. Each individual here is just that - individual. Some of us (maybe the most vocal) are atheists, but there are also Deists, Buddhists, Pagans, etc. on this site. The only common thread is the EX CHRISTIAN part. Confusion immediately after de-conversion is common.

 

I'd like to welcome you as an Ex-Christian whenever, if ever, you are to that point!

 

- Chris

[Antlerman]

Thank you Florduh,

I was thinking after Ruby's post, why is it necessary for me to now conform to the unbelief group, and is it not equally controlling of this group, just like the group from which I come? I think Reboot may have a point here about trashing the framework. And what is the framework? ....are we bound my morals passed on from an evolving society, is this the only way, is there another?

Well here's the wonderful thing about the society we live in. We can pretty much pick and choose our own little enclaves and cultures - especially if you live in larger metropolitan areas. Everyone conforms to the 'truth' of their group, but where the freedom of life today is we can choose with 'relative freedom' what most identifies with our personalities. We always conform to some extent because we need groups for survival.

 

It is a natural tendency to expect others around you to conform, but the danger lies in taking it too far and taking someone's choosing other 'truths' to be be taken as threat to them, either by somehow being seen to invalidate one's own chosen truth, or as a threat to erode that truth to make it no longer usable by them.

 

I always come back to the human/primate factor. Despite all our wonderful technologies and cities, we are still like chimps in a forest fighting within our little tribes on right and wrong in the order of it. Now we're one huge forest with 6 billion little primates buying and selling bananas with thousands of other little groups, coming back to our little tree family with exotic ideas from these other groups. And on an on...

 

Anyway in short, breaking free from Christianity's structured limitations, opens you up to find what works for you. You should never feel pressured to be this flavor or that flavor of whatever from anyone. If anything to me that defines being an Ex, is that I'm free to choose.

 

 

 

BTW... just a suggestion End? When you jot your thoughts out as you did in your OP, you should come back to it after you do a "stream of consciousness" dump like that, and try to edit it so it's easier for other's to read.

 

Funny anecdote to consider: A student of Bach once told him, "Master, I have a real ear for music." To which Bach responded, "That's great. But you must always remember this, that your listener's have ears too."

[Guest end3]

stream of consciousness....thanks for not calling it what it is The sad part is, it makes perfect sense to me.....

[Legion]

Hey End, this is a surprising turn of events.

 

I hope you will never sense pressure from me for you to de-convert. Truth is, I don’t give care if you are a Christian or not. But I admire anyone who has the intestinal fortitude to admit to themselves that they don’t understand everything. It seems to me to be much easier to pretend that we have it all figured out.

 

May providence be with you on your journey End. And may understanding be yours.

[Guest end3]

Thanks LR,

 

Florduh is right, it is a touch confusing....I was thinking OK, if Christianity is a survival association, it would be: theoretical self-sacrifice for the good of group. (please note the bolding of theoretical). As another means of survival, people may form associations that require involuntary sacrifices and associations, for example, work, drugs, prostitution, etc. The rub is in the theoretical(please notice bolding again), distribution of the Christian association and the related fallout. This got me to thinking of the other thread in the Col (serious question for Christians) where he poses the question, "why does God do it this way, instead of forming a no problem survival structure immediately". Seems like God tried to do that throughout the OT. Which brings us to an experience we all share, which is, "NO, I want to do it on my own!" So maybe, if you are still trying to rationalize it, like myself, then He is letting us learn on our own.....

[SWIM]

And end, de-converting does not mean you have a "new" set of rules to go by. There are lots of discussions where is Ex's do not see eye to eye. The thread about old/young relationships is one of many. Be being an ex, you are most certainly STILL an individual. All being an EX means is that you are discarding an old delusion, and are moving forward in life from a healthier mental perspective.

 

One other thing, please don't respond to me by my real name if you respond. Thanks.

 

Don't mind discussing ANYTHING serious with you as long as it's not preaching or trolling.

[Guest end3]

I did that inadvertently the other day, it was not intentional...sorry SWIM

[Antlerman]

stream of consciousness....thanks for not calling it what it is The sad part is, it makes perfect sense to me.....

well... exactly what is it then? I actually can understand it, but I have to step back and see it bubble up through the cracks. There's tons of times I wrestling with abstract thoughts/impressions and trying to find away to stitch it together to talk about it. In fact that pretty much describes my whole effort of what I do in a lot of my posts, where I'm exploring thoughts and trying to put them into words. The cool bit is, that once you do and you see what you were trying to say, lo and behold someone, somewhere has a term for all of that already, and your thoughts turn out to really be only new to you. The down side is, it takes you longer to get there. But the upside is you came to relatively on your own, and I suppose it becomes more deeply owned as a result of that.

 

So how would I have worded your OP, since I know you're dying to ask, yes???

 

How I would revise edit it:

I've been considering that regardless of categories or systems of religious belief versus non-belief; real or imagined, there seems to be a moral sensibility that evolves steadily underlying it, being fed from many divergent sources, which in essence defines our sense of truth; which truths appears relative to when we live in history. I'm at a slight point of frustration with all these different "categories" regarding the best way to understand and pursue the "purpose" or "meaning" we're striving to understand and incorporate into our lives, which resides outside categories or systems, or schools of thought.

 

I don't think it's anything simple that we can define by limiting categories. There's many good minds here, somebody please clue me in....

 

In other words, regardless of what categories we put ourselves into, I question whether we're really seeing the bigger picture..

 

I'm going to go read Ecclesiastes again...

In reference to OP:

I am thinking that regardless of associations, belief/non-belief, real or imagined, that there seems to be a moral trend that has steadily evolved through different avenues that in essence defines life during the period in which we are born. I am at a slight point of frustration with the different "associations" regarding the best way to understand and pursue this "height" we are striving to understand and practice.

 

I don't know that it is a simple function that we can define through a limited association. There are many good minds here, somebody please clue me in....

 

In other words, regardless of where we place ourselves, I don't think we are getting it..

 

Going to go read Ecclesiates again...

 

So, if that accurately reflects what you were saying.... I'd say your one pretty smart fellow End3. Good line of questioning. We are such products of post-modernism. I love it. One word for you End: Humanism

 

See what a little rewording can do?

[Legion]

I am just frustrated that there are no simple answers to make me feel comfortable. I was stating that life is probably not a simple function that one can grasp and say, "yeah, glad I got that straight".

End I just saw this. I understand this feeling. You know, in my youth I thought surely it must be simple. We are just overlooking it. But I suspect that life is inherently complex. And for me the complexity of life can sometimes be overwhelming. I agree completely that life is not a simple function that we can immediately grasp and say, "yeah, glad we got that straight."

 

I want to help you in some way End, but I have only my small piece of perspective. I don't want you to remain frustrated. But I can't rid you of it by saying, "here are the answers." I am on my own journey to find understanding.

 

Edit: Have you ever read my signature line End? What is life? That is the question of questions. Be audacious enough to frame this question properly. And be humble enough to strive to answer it.

[Guest end3]

AM,

Yes, thank-you! I don't know how to catagorize myself as I don't know all the philosophies out there. Going to spit out a few "real basic" concepts of my belief.

 

1) I believe there is grace to be given to everyone

2) I think an afterlife is real

3) I can rationalize most stuff in the Bible, but don't have complete understanding.

4) Nature, infinity, agreement of many "types" makes me believe in God.

5) Associations in theory are good, but fall short of providing an inner peace that they are designed to fix.

6) I don't like to see people hurt.

7) I think truth is found in steak and cheezy potatoes

[florduh]

AM,

Yes, thank-you! I don't know how to catagorize myself as I don't know all the philosophies out there. Going to spit out a few "real basic" concepts of my belief.

 

1) I believe there is grace to be given to everyone

2) I think an afterlife is real

3) I can rationalize most stuff in the Bible, but don't have complete understanding.

4) Nature, infinity, agreement of many "types" makes me believe in God.

5) Associations in theory are good, but fall short of providing an inner peace that they are designed to fix.

6) I don't like to see people hurt.

7) I think truth is found in steak and cheezy potatoes

 

 

1. Why?

2. Why?

3. If you must rationalize, then it is YOU making up the message.

4. Study more science so you don't have to default to a god when you don't understand something.

5. Nothing is designed to bring inner peace. It is an individual journey.

6. You're already more moral that bible god.

7. That statement is more profound than you might realize.

 

I just think people should think through their beliefs and have reasons other than "I want it to be that way, so that's what I'll designate as true."

 

There is no need to categorize yourself. Think, be free, enjoy your time on this amazing planet along with some amazing people!

[Alice]

I don't know how to catagorize myself as I don't know all the philosophies out there. Going to spit out a few "real basic" concepts of my belief.

 

I think I can empathise with the 'if I deconvert - who am I?' feeling. Once I'd learnt to live without a label for a little while, I started to find the 'journey' a lot of fun.

 

In response to your seven ..

 

1) I believe grace is available for everyone (and I guess my view of grace has changed)

2) I think an afterlife is real only in that we live on in the hearts and minds of those who love us and events or idea's we have influenced continue to impact on the world

3) I can see some useful passages in the bible, but I like being free to abhor the abhorrent bits.

4) The experience of all that is beautiful fills me with a sense of something that is transcendent and ineffable and I think some people might call this feeling 'god'.

5) Don't mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the moon.

6) I don't like to see people hurt.

7) I think truth is found in spinach and hummous (Alice is vegan )

[Antlerman]

AM,

Yes, thank-you! I don't know how to catagorize myself as I don't know all the philosophies out there. Going to spit out a few "real basic" concepts of my belief.

Sure... just don't expect me to do that again..

 

Don't know how to categorize yourself? Neither do I really. I fit a lot of categories. I think the simplest is human. From there I identify with certain things in certain schools of thought. None of them are really meant to be "The Answer", but really more points of view - descriptions. To me life is about finding the value in perspectives. That's why cutting ourselves off from other perspectives limits that experience of life. That's why Christianity fails for me - it denies any thoughts other than its own. To me that's an offense to the spirit of life that's in humanity.

 

1) I believe there is grace to be given to everyone

2) I think an afterlife is real

3) I can rationalize most stuff in the Bible, but don't have complete understanding.

4) Nature, infinity, agreement of many "types" makes me believe in God.

5) Associations in theory are good, but fall short of providing an inner peace that they are designed to fix.

6) I don't like to see people hurt.

7) I think truth is found in steak and cheezy potatoes

Following suit with everyone else here:

 

1. I believe humans for the most part prefer peace and happiness. It's nothing given, but desired and sought after.

 

2. As Alice says, I see a continuation of ourselves has having been part of life and contributed to it. In a sense we never leave, though we as we are now end.

 

3. Again, like Alice says... there's some human truths contained in it that have some value, while there's a lot of cruft if taken literally. In those 'abhorrent bits" there even is some value in looking at the evolution of human societies being expressed in cultural myths. Oddly enough, if the bits that offend us today about slavery and whatnot, are snapshots of a slowly evolving culture. From an anthropological point of view, that has value. It shows the road we've traveled to get to where we are today. Same thing can be applied reading our literature from even less than 50 years ago.

 

4. Ok. Sure. If someone wants to paint a face on the picture and see the universe with intention, to me that's a "perspective". If you wanted to talk about it in scientific terms, it obviously doesn't seem to apply. It quite literally is a form of Romanticism Honestly, that's really what the more modern Western Christian view of God is anyway. A form of Romanticism. It's like viewing "Love" as eternal, or your special relationship as your "Soul Mate". There's no science about that! Yet, its a certain emotional framework for us.

 

Interestingly, when I hear people dispute "Christianity" quite often, what they are disputing is literally Romanticism! It's just that Christianity has adopted Romanticism, but the arguments are often against those notions within it. Think about it.

 

5. arrgh, what do you mean by "associations"? Contextually it looks like you means "schools of thought", or disciplines, or religions, or belief systems - those sorts of things. Ok, hang on End... I'm going to take you somewhere with this: What people fail to understand about all of this things is that they really, at least not in the original impulse that created them, were never designed to give you the answer - to give you peace. What they were/are supposed to be is a means to find peace, to find answers. They are systems of tools, languages, disciplines, philosophies, and the like to help YOU find something in yourself. Now all that can be "externalized" as a system of symbols to pull you foward towards, but in the end (no pun intended), it's YOU who finds it. In other terms, they really a system of signs to point you to something. They are not the "something" itself, and the problem is people turn to the the signs for the answer! The signs don't have the answer, nor are they the answer. In then end, the answer is found in you.

 

Now I take that to its fullest end and say that even God is symbol to point to something - the face beyond God - your own.

 

Hi Alice (This feels good to do this again!)

 

6. "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall see God"

 

7. Yep, truth is in many things, ultimately in yourself.

 

 

Welcome to the freedom that life beyond Christianity opens.

 

 

 

Edit: HEY!! POST 4000!

 

I get the Christ Chair!