This Is Mind Control But Why Do They Have To Do It?

[R. S. Martin]

In my wanderings up and down the internet today I came across something called Robert J. Lifton's 8 Criteria for Mind Control. I wish they would go into more detail and maybe someone here knows where to find more information on the matter.

 

There are eight items and a brief description for each one. I read down the list. The fourth one, doctrine over person, hit me hard. I'll copy it here:

 

No matter what a person experiences, it is the belief of the dogma which is important. Group belief supersedes conscience and integrity.

 

THAT is what my whole life struggle has been about. My ten years of university education focused on finding an answer to WHY this is so--HOW this can be so. My thesis was an all-out effort to find some answer.

 

You all know the results. I found the answer and my supervisor hated me for outlinging it. The answer is right smack in the middle of controling people with authority.

 

I didn't know it was control. I just knew it was the word of authority and that they knocked out the logic that should support it. Not until my supervisor attacked me for this central statement of my paper did I know that these liberal-minded Christians were so strong on authority.

 

Now I read this thing about mind-control and I see it's even more than just unsupported authority--it's about CONTROL.

 

The sixth point is cult of confession. The description:

 

The environment demands that personal boundaries are destroyed and that every thought, feeling, or action that does not conform with the group's rules be confessed; little or no privacy.

 

The church community as a whole was not as totalitarian in this as my mother. She may have had more respect for the autonomy of some of her other children but for me--I felt accountable to her for every thought, feeling, and action. Not even geographical distance could change that; she was my conscience.

 

I also remember her saying to one of my little sisters who was perhaps a year old at the time and have a temper tantrum, "You mayn't even get this angry!" I would guess the toddler got a smack on the side of the head on the word "get" to knock her out of her tantrum. Thus, I know that approved thoughts and feelings were taught from infancy, and they were taught in a way that could not help but be absorbed on the physical level. The church taught submission. The bible teaches self-denial.

 

For some strange, strange reason, suicide is considered to be wrong.

 

The thing is, there were areas of my life that my mother did not know about. She taught me when I was very little that there were areas of my consciousness that she did not want to know about. Throughout my childhood and adolescence she made it abundantly clear that there were questions she did not want to be asked about the faith. It was as if these parts of my thought life would go away if she denied their existence.

 

Of course they didn't. No problem. Lifton's Mind-Control techniques have solutions. I read on down the list...whoa! The Dispensing of Existence.

 

The group decides who has a right to exist and does not. There is no other legitimate alternative to the group. In political regimes, this permits state executions.

 

The church community did not have the right to execute stake burnings or actual crucifixions during the late 20th century, but it had the psychological equivilents and it certainly exercised these to the fullest extent. Here are some of the major items the community denied me but allowed other women (qualifications apply to each item):

 

• job
  
• marriage
  
• home
  
• decision-making rights for own life
  

I accepted and made the best of the situation. However, I did not accept suicide, or life-long living death--both qualify as nonexistence, as options.

 

I escaped. Worse yet, I rejected the entire concept of god right along with the central principles of their entire religion--hook, line, and sinker.

 

Somehow, all their finely crafted and highly perfected mind-control technique--horror of horrors!--FAILED.

 

I'm beginning to understand that if CONTROL was the centre-piece of all this clap-trap and to-do, then it makes sense that they practically took up arms when I left the church, enrolled in university, and shrugged off religion. Ruby cannot be controlled come hell or high water--or both as they inevitably will. Like the eagle and lone wolf, Ruby does her own thinking.

 

But why the need to control??? If, as they preach and insist left and right , front and centre, from the craddle to the grave, that their religion and way of life is built:

 

On Christ the solid rock I stand--

all other ground is sinking sand.....

All other ground is sinking sand.

 

If they truly believe that, then they have no need to control me. They can rest assured on the "rock of ages," "safe and secure from all alarm." They can trust the Holy Ghost or God to judge them that are without (1 Cor. 5:12), and need not excommunicate me from formal meals are family funerals. However, such is not the case.

 

As fundamentalist theologians long before them, they feel a need to defend god and the bible or die in the attempt. WHY???

 

From my point of view, I live and let live. I was taught, and fervently believe, that truth can stand on its own two feet. If they have to fight so hard they must be hiding something. But what are they hiding? I know, and have told them, that there are no answers to my questions and that the central tenets of their religion makes no sense to me. Why can't they just accept that--along with me--and go on in life?

 

I have exposed the lie but what of it? If they want to believe it, what of it? Why hate me? If it's them that's broke it won't help to break the mirror, too. They should fix themselves so they like what they see in the mirror.

 

Sorry, this is one long rambling post. Any thoughts, anyone?

[hereticzero]

Xtians will tell you they are not judgmental and at the same time they read off several condemnations, and then end it with 'hate the sin, love the sinner' righteousness speech and all that. Defenders of the faith give legitimacy to their efforts, kill ten and convert 100, kill 100 convert thousands, after all, who wouldn't believe a story someone is willing to die for? The number of the persecuted seems to me to be political as there is no real way to know how many are actually persecuted for their faith. Some are killed, that is a fact reported on the news. I think many ministries that depend on donations to help those in countries that persecute xtians fudge the numbers to make it look like there is more persecution than what is truthfully happening. Where there is no persecution, xtians go out of the way to CAUSE friction between religious groups. The more persecution they are perceived to be under, the more money missions will send to their aid. $28 American per month goes a long way in some countries.

[florduh]

There are so many inadequate people in the world that are control freaks. Maybe it's genetic or maybe it's learned. They not only exist in churches and universities, but anywhere a small position has the potential of exerting control over someone. The classic Barney Fife cop, scout leaders, security guards and department supervisors. They seem to be everywhere!

 

The problem gets worse when they band together with a common cause, as a secret society, political party, cult, or religion. After the battle for the alpha control freak position, the "group think" takes over, and the sheep are recruited for them to control. Some actually like/need an external structure to run their lives and minds. Those who see the emperor's new clothes, or even just want to contribute new ideas are unwelcome. They aren't playing the game properly.

 

It's not about accomplishing, improving, or teaching and learning. It's just about reinforcing the ideas of the control group and maintaining and increasing numbers. Conformity is almost a necessity for success in any field. It is a rare nonconformist that successfully leaves his/her mark in this crazy society.

 

- Chris

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks Heretic. You're talked quite a bit in your posts about Voice of Martyr's and the politics of claimed persecution, etc. I was never sure how it worked but this post makes it fairly clear. In one post you mentioned Brother Andrew and his Bible smuggling business. You said that was all bogus? I was minimally involved in that at one point because I read his book. Is World Vision genuine?

 

What I don't get is the many levels and layers of lies. There's more than money involved here. Vast masses of people world wide are doing stuff on a daily basis that they will never see any earthly gain for. Entire political and economic systems are based on this, or similar, religion. Very, very few human individuals stand to gain any monetary or political gain from it that they could not gain from some other source. What keeps the machine running?

[Dhampir]

What keeps the machine running?

... The security of a narrow and easily identified range of lifestyle options?

[Mongo]

What I don't get is the many levels and layers of lies. There's more than money involved here. Vast masses of people world wide are doing stuff on a daily basis that they will never see any earthly gain for. Entire political and economic systems are based on this, or similar, religion. Very, very few human individuals stand to gain any monetary or political gain from it that they could not gain from some other source. What keeps the machine running?

 

Excellent question and one I ponder myself.

 

One thing that I feel is true about me and everyone else is that we all have a desire to be part of something bigger than ourselves.

 

Of course, why then would people choose to manufacture something imaginary rather than something real?

 

Maybe a comparison helps.

 

Astronauts go to the Moon and religious folk go to heaven or nirvana.

Architects build sky scrapers and preachers build conduits to eternity and sanctuarys where god can live.

 

Why do people thrive on imagination?

 

Einstein said it was more important than knowledge.

 

I've been skipping though this thread and will come back to it later. Brainwashing is a hot button for me - it really is about control. I think you've hit some fundamental questions and as always, you point out the salient parts.

 

Mongo

[Legion]

I've known it was largely about control since I decided to leave. That's a large part of why I did leave.

 

Ruby, that's what breaks my heart about you. It seems to me that you have grown up within such a manipulative enviroment that now you may find it difficult to trust anyone.

[R. S. Martin]

I found quite a bit more information in F.A.C.T.net How Does Mind Control Work? This article, or rather report on court case, regards people recruited into cults. I'm talking about having been born into the situation. This person confirms what I've known for a long time--that there are psychological techniques that are more powerful and effective than drugs, torture, and other physical forces. These other forces tend not to work the minute the pressure is relieved. However, these psychological techniques persuade a person to want things he/she would not otherwise want.

 

I do not claim that everyone in the Old Order Mennonite community, or even all my siblings, necessarily were subjected to this. However, I think the community is set up in such a way that it can be instituted at a moment's notice when a person seems to be deviating from the prescribed "path." I would like to say the entire community operates according to this system but the article hardly allows for this.

 

The article outlines the Seven Tactics of a Coercive Persuasion Program.

 

Because I was born into it, Tactic 1 or the softening up phase, was not needed for me. Tactic 2 with the punishment and rewards system is where my parents started. And they were the bottom layer of command of a much larger system, to which they were accountable for not teaching me submission. This is why I think it is a community effort and not an individual thing.

 

Tactic 3 re information not to be shared with outsiders. My mother taught me that there were in-house topics that we should not talk about to outsiders. I'm sure I've broken every one of those taboos on here and in my papers, etc. I have no intention to stop exposing these evils.

 

Tactic 4 regards self-perception and the perception of reality. I think this is what causes many people here on exC to call religion a mental illness and this article says it can actually lead to serious illness like schizophenia.

 

TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.

 

This is where authority figures ran into very serious problems with me--or I with them. I incessently questioned them to find out HOW THEY KNEW the things they claimed to know. And when they wouldn't tell me, or when they just shut me up, I would hold onto the topic in my mind--sometimes for years--until I had an answer proven in reality via cause and effect; I didn't know that this was called the scientific method I only knew it was a reliable way to prove what was real. I think this is what saved my sanity.

 

TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.

 

I would say every single one of these was used on me to extreme degrees. I used concepts found in books such as Dale Carnegie's How To Win Friends and Influence People, and Norman Vincent Peele's Power of Positive Thinking to keep myself grounded. Before I found those books, there were passages in the Bible, esp. from the life of Jesus and some writings of Paul, that also helped me hold onto a sense of self.

 

Tactic 7 regards "bad things" that will happen if one does not comply. Except for the threat of hell, this one was too easy to disprove to have much hold on me.

[Mongo]

Ruby,

 

Last week I got a message on my answering machine in response to an ad I placed to sell a car.

 

When I listened to it the first time I actually thought a real person named "Al", who worked for a company that matches buyers/sellers, was calling me to suggest I try out his service.

 

The message was very, very slick. The speaker had a nice voice. He was relaxed. He had a hook. He didn't give me the "high pressure" pitch. I was so impressed with the tone and choice of words, I played it over again for my brother who was visiting for a couple days.

 

As one who scrutinizes the veracity of everything, I found myself tempted to break a cardinal rule... never do business with people who phone me out of the blue.

 

Then... it struck me... it was soooo slick and even toned that it could not possibly be a person making cold calls but had to be a machine that would leave a message when no one answered the phone. Anyone phoning back asking for "Al" would be told that "Al's busy" and be directed to another person. For those that wanted to talk only to "Al", there would be a host of alternative responses like "He's on vacation" et cetera.

 

When I played it for him a 3rd time, my brother saw what I saw.

 

The point of that story is that we as humans use very subtle cues (voice tone, word choice, story line, facial cues, body language, et cetera) to convince others that what we say is true and valuable.

 

I am convinced that these cues are good pursuaders by themselves and when several of them are aligned or unified with a message/vision they become extremely powerful and can be used to convince others of things they would otherwise question.

 

This happened to me when I was 17 and went to a bible study. The message provided by the Pastor's wife was supported by many behaviours that indicate sincerity and truth. They engaged me as an person who, in my family, was used to being overlooked. It all convinced me that they were living out the values I never saw displayed by the Priests in my Catholic church. It was all very seductive.

 

The things I speak of are the other side of mind control that do not fit into the box of "coercive persuasion".

 

I think it is very hard for people to see mind control and marketing as one and the same but from where I sit they are interwoven.

 

So for me, coercive tools and seductive tools are basically different sides of the same 'mind control' coin.

 

From my perspective, church people of all stripe fail to perceive their behaviour as coercive or seductive. Even sales people are aware of what they do which is why it is difficult for them to look sincere while church folk often find it easy. They perceive that their behaviours are synchronized or consistant with their message/vision. I think this is the essential power of religion.

 

Religion cultivates a culture, a set of pre-defined attitudes including behaviours which are designed to align the seductive and coercive behaviours to the church 'Brand'. To me, from the initial 'invention', by a founding figure, the church culture 'evolves' through a process of 'natural selection'. In this sense, coercive or seductive behaviours and tools that work will survive and ones that don't will expire. It truly is a case of "the end justifies the means".

 

You have often heard me talk of xtian culture. I believe that by exploring xtian culture, we will uncover coercive and seductive persuasion patterns which I feel are not well understood.

 

I've said it before on this board and again I'll propose that xtianity needs to be understood in a cultural perspective just as much as it needs to be understood in a doctrinal one. Probably more.

 

You see, doctrine can be soundly refuted but when you discuss xtian culture, the believer always proposes that the behaviour you are questioning is an "exception" and something they would not support.

 

Yes... I'm offically changing my answer above... culture is more important than doctrine - hands down!

 

Mongo

[Mongo]

Ruby et al,

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...mp;#entry368727

 

I made reference to this thread on another as it relates to mind control.

 

Mongo

[par4dcourse]

What keeps the machine running? Fear. Fear of death and fear of punishment.

[gabby]

Hey Martin,

 

I really like that you posted this. I ran across F.A.C.T. net pre-deconversion when I was doing some research on Scientology. I was shocked to find that each of the steps conformed exactly to the way my church operated to a "tee". It made me realize that I had been involved in a cult which actually led me to this msg. board. I think that this should be req. reading for anyone who was involved in a heavy-handed xtian cult. Thanks again.

[R. S. Martin]

Hey Martin,

 

I really like that you posted this. I ran across F.A.C.T. net pre-deconversion when I was doing some research on Scientology. I was shocked to find that each of the steps conformed exactly to the way my church operated to a "tee". It made me realize that I had been involved in a cult which actually led me to this msg. board. I think that this should be req. reading for anyone who was involved in a heavy-handed xtian cult. Thanks again.

 

You're welcome, gabby, and also welcome to the forums. I had seen you talking in the shoutbox but didn't know you had signed up to the forums.

 

For interested parties, I haven't had time to read all of them yet, but at the bottom of the FACT article on Mind Control are links to more of the author's articles that look really helpful. Also, I am reading a book published by Prometheus Books in 1986 (they tend to publish intellectual and skepetical books) called Mind of the Bible-Believer, written by Edmund D. Cohen. Cohen converted to, and deconverted from, bible-believing religion. He said it was like getting out of substance abuse. He talks about mind-games and the evangelical mind control system.

 

I haven't gotten beyond the introduction and first chapter but I think this is a good book for anyone interested in a scholarly scholarly approach. He got a PhD in psyhology by age 25, was disillusioned by the field and went to law school. I'm not sure what he's doing now but he says this book is what he should have had when he got involved with that religion. I'm hoping to learn a lot.

 

It's one of the books I brought home from the library to use for my thesis but didn't have time to read.

[R. S. Martin]

What keeps the machine running? Fear. Fear of death and fear of punishment.

 

I guess like someone--was it Chris--mentioned, each person is part of a department or family or some system that is subordinate to a larger system that is subordinate to another system, and so on up until we're on the national. And that's where we run into trouble. It seems no one is able to enforce international law so they have to fight it out with bombs re whose god is stronger.

[R. S. Martin]

Ruby,

 

Last week I got a message on my answering machine in response to an ad I placed to sell a car.

 

When I listened to it the first time I actually thought a real person named "Al", who worked for a company that matches buyers/sellers, was calling me to suggest I try out his service.

 

The message was very, very slick. The speaker had a nice voice. He was relaxed. He had a hook. He didn't give me the "high pressure" pitch. I was so impressed with the tone and choice of words, I played it over again for my brother who was visiting for a couple days.

 

As one who scrutinizes the veracity of everything, I found myself tempted to break a cardinal rule... never do business with people who phone me out of the blue.

 

Then... it struck me... it was soooo slick and even toned that it could not possibly be a person making cold calls but had to be a machine that would leave a message when no one answered the phone. Anyone phoning back asking for "Al" would be told that "Al's busy" and be directed to another person. For those that wanted to talk only to "Al", there would be a host of alternative responses like "He's on vacation" et cetera.

 

When I played it for him a 3rd time, my brother saw what I saw.

 

I had to read the story a number of times to clue in what your point is. I personally am missing the context of hearing the voice and the experience of selling cars, etc. However, I know about using tone of voice to manipulate and deceive when it comes to business and emotions. I also know about trusting personal intuition on these things, and having cardinal rules to keep oneself safe in those times when the brain cannot kick in fast enough to over-ride the emotional appeal of the slick tones.

 

The point of that story is that we as humans use very subtle cues (voice tone, word choice, story line, facial cues, body language, et cetera) to convince others that what we say is true and valuable.

 

I am convinced that these cues are good pursuaders by themselves and when several of them are aligned or unified with a message/vision they become extremely powerful and can be used to convince others of things they would otherwise question.

 

This happened to me when I was 17 and went to a bible study. The message provided by the Pastor's wife was supported by many behaviours that indicate sincerity and truth. They engaged me as an person who, in my family, was used to being overlooked. It all convinced me that they were living out the values I never saw displayed by the Priests in my Catholic church. It was all very seductive.

 

The things I speak of are the other side of mind control that do not fit into the box of "coercive persuasion".

 

Add to the "seduction" element your natural proclivity for veracity that you mentioned above re the telephone message. Here was someone who seemed capable of verifying God's truth, perhaps in a way superior to your Catholic priest--I'm just guessing here, having had next to no experience with the RCC ever in my life.

 

I disagree that the methods used by these Bible study leaders are the "other side" of "coersive persuasion." Maybe I don't understand it, but I think they are part of the package. I'll quote from the FACT article:

 

A coercive persuasion program is a behavioral change technology applied to cause the "learning" and "adoption" of a set of behaviors or an ideology under certain conditions. It is distinguished from other forms of benign social learning or peaceful persuasion by the conditions under which it is conducted and by the techniques of environmental and interpersonal manipulation employed to suppress particular behaviors and to train others. Over time, coercive persuasion, a psychological force akin in some ways to our legal concepts of undue influence, can be even MORE effective than pain, torture, drugs, and use of physical force and legal threats.

 

Note that it does not say that all the techniques used are experienced as negative or unpleasant. In fact, I think this is what makes it so effective--there's just enough "love" thrown in to draw people in and to keep them off-balance. The Stokholm Syndrom (where the hostages fall in love with their kidnappers out of gratitude for sparing their lives when they could have killed them) is a classic example. In another post you linked to one of the tongue-talking threads. ExC member Stephen Webb posted on one of those threads about the mystical feeling people get from hours of chanting, and that this brings on the conviction of being in communion with deity. I added that Christianity does this, too, via singing, sermon, and praying. Some of this stuff can be boring, but also rhythmic and soothing or hypnotic to the susceptible mind. Thus, pleasure is interwoven with the discipline.

 

Methinks I have heard many a sermon with this theme...the pleasurable side of discipline...wouldn't certain people have a vested interest in using that kind of reason??? As in the song Blessed Assurance: "Perfect submission, all is at rest...there with my Savior I'm happy and blest...Watching and waiting looking above....Born in his Spirit, washed in his love."

 

I think this is the essential power of religion.

 

<snip>

 

You have often heard me talk of xtian culture. I believe that by exploring xtian culture, we will uncover coercive and seductive persuasion patterns which I feel are not well understood.

 

I've said it before on this board and again I'll propose that xtianity needs to be understood in a cultural perspective just as much as it needs to be understood in a doctrinal one. Probably more.

 

You see, doctrine can be soundly refuted but when you discuss xtian culture, the believer always proposes that the behaviour you are questioning is an "exception" and something they would not support.

 

Mongo, I am so glad someone is seeing this. By the time my oral exam was over I felt like the liberal Lutherans couldn't see the importance of culture and that the evangelical sociologist wouldn't see the lethal combination of theology and culture. I also had the distinct feeling that everything I said fell on deaf ears because it was in the context of my personal opinion and experience. However, it provided me with a forum of professional Christians in which to sound out my ideas. I would not have some of these insights were it not for that experience.

 

Skeptics like Edmund Cohen, mentioned in my post above, may provide professional insight. My evangelical sociologist wanted me to tell him the difference between evangelicals and fundamentalists. I had done a paper on that a few years ago and he knew about it. I'm sure he expected some kind of answer from me but I had none. I was kind of puzzled myself. Today I was reading in Cohen. He describes a kind of evangelical religion that "feels" fundamentalist to me but is called evangelical. I'm sure that is what has had me confused. I'm also quite certain that my sociologist would not acknowledge the existence of this brand of evangelicalism.

 

It's weird the things that don't exist when I talk to him. It is also weird the things that do exist when I talk to him. For example, he told me that an author by name Marsden tells the difference between evangelicals and fundamentalists. Sorry, but I read three or four of Marsden's books and I was looking HARD for definitions, and could not find a single one. Another example: In Feb. I asked this guy for literature on 9/11. He insisted that nothing worth mentioning had been written. He finally gave me the names of a few obscure journals because I wouldn't take no for an answer. I then went to the library to find another book he had recommended. And what do I find but a book by a world famous sociologist of fundamentalism and it was about 9/11.

 

It cannot be that he did not know about it. HE IS SELECTIVELY DEAF AND BLIND. And in his own field of specialty at that.

 

I think this is part of the culture you are talking about. And it is happening on high levels of learning where it ought not be. This man intentionally deceived me and kept me from achieving my stated goals. He promised me in writing (a casual email) not to allow his religion to come between himself and his advisory role with me. All I can say is that I got out of there more or less in one piece. I have access to the world's information highways. I think I have a distinct advantage having experienced first hand this Christian culture at all levels--from the uneducated farmers to the intellectual elite.

 

I am a warrior for truth and I found a lot of people who professs to be but fall seriously short when put to the test.