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Goodbye Jesus

I'm Having Some Trouble


Justin

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Well first off, i joined this site a little over 2 years ago right when i first deconverted. Things went well and all but before to long i started having doubts about my deconversion and i soon went back to being a christian. When i say that i went back to being a "christian" i don't mean i gave my heart to christ and got saved and baptised again, but that i went back to church and went through the motions because i felt bad for leaving and leaving the religion left me in an uncomfortable, doubt filled place totally foreign to me. So for nearly 2 years i had been back in church, but i had the doubts about christianity that i had before that made me leave the first time, but i still held onto that because i had been conditioned to it my entire life, told that it was the only way. More thorough research into christianity and the Bible and how i felt in general soon led me to deconvert again, hopefully this time will be final. My deconverstion now is stronger as opposed to before, for i have more ammo to bat down doubts and anything a christian throws at me. However, lately i have started having those same old doubts, hypocritical, i know. Sometimes i just feel bad for leaving, believing as i do. I think of some of my friends and family who are christians and i just feel wrong, like it all is wrong. Whats crazier is that at times i feel like god will strike me down or allow something bad to happen to me or someone or something that i love. I don't believe in god but it's just every now and then i get this feeling like if he did exist he will take me out, lol. Of course, that begs the question on why i would worship a god that would do such a thing. But despite all this i still stand strong in my beliefs, because if it had been the old me of 2 years ago i would have converted back to christianity by now. So thats good anyway.

 

My question is, how do i releive these doubts, ease them and so forth? I know that it is all because i was conditioned/indoctrinated/brainwashed into believing in christianity my whole life that makes me at times doubt and feel bad but does it get easier? Are there any ways to help with this? Anyone else been where i have been? It's really damned aggrivating at times, lol. Just the other day i was starting to actually give this the time of day: http://www.sibkl.org.my/htm/resources/articles/moses.htm That how bad it can get for me sometimes.

 

Anyway, any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

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I started practicing zazen meditation. Before starting, I would ask any god/dess(es) or spirits present to feel free to talk to me. Yahweh never did. Loki and Bastet, however, did come and did speak to me. I am still pretty skeptical and think it is quite likely that this me getting in touch with other parts of my brain in a creative way. In any case, that's what worked for me. I don't know if it will work for you or help you at all, but there it is.

 

Good luck.

 

Oh, actually Yahweh did speak to me once. I told him that I had come to the conclusion that there were many gods who picked their own people, that I didn't think he had picked me, and that I was leaving. He didn't reply in words, but I felt a sense of relief and well wishing that was outside of me. Again, this is quite likely just me comforting myself in my own way, but it really worked. After that I had no more fear of Yahweh.

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Hello, Justin, and welcome.

 

De-conversion just takes some time for most people to get over entirely.

 

I suggest listening to others who have left the religion. Study and know the answers to Christian apologetics. Read "The God Delusion." Search skeptical websites.

 

The more you understand what's wrong with Christianity, the more comfortable you will become with being an Ex-Christian.

 

- Chris

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Yeah Justin, I can only echo what Florduh (Chris) said. I think it's a brave and difficult thing to leave all that you've known behind. And I would urge to be patient with yourself. Give yourself plenty of time and space to work these things out. My deconversion didn't happen over night. It took several years for me to purge myself of it.

 

I see it all now as myth. That doesn't imply that it is without value, but the myth no longer works for me. Oh speaking of myth, you might find some of Joseph Campbell's work interesting.

 

And although you joined some time ago I have not had the opportunity to welcome you. Welcome.

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It does take time, but it sounds like you are mostly battling fear and that's a tough one. I used to be fearful as a Xian and mostly deconverted because I was so fucking pissed off about being lied to for so many years. I'm still pissed off and it's what keeps me going some days. Fear paralyzes. Anger keeps you on your feet.

 

If you can find a balance that keeps both in check then you are doing well...

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Thanks everyone. I figured that with time it would ease off, and with each passing day it does get better, little by little. A problem i have that i didn't mention in my above post is that i sometimes go to a christian forum that i was once a full fledged member of to put up points to see if they can counter them. Needless to say, nobody can counter them in the least but i get to reading some of their posts where they put up scripture, scripture that i used to believe and hold dear to my heart. Eh, it's just difficult at times. I'm just glad it is getting better.

 

Thanks again everyone.

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A problem i have that i didn't mention in my above post is that i sometimes go to a christian forum that i was once a full fledged member of to put up points to see if they can counter them. Needless to say, nobody can counter them in the least but i get to reading some of their posts where they put up scripture, scripture that i used to believe and hold dear to my heart.

 

No, they can't answer your questions/points. The only honest Xian is the one who says, "I don't know," without adding the "but I still believe" bullshit. I suppose they're all saying that they'll "pray" for you and such?

 

I'm assuming that you haven't "come out" to them yet?

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Also, you linked to that other site-think about this: so what if they DID find the chariot wheels of THAT chariot? Part of the story being true does not make the whole story true....I mean, would you use the fact that disneyland really exists as proof that mickey mouse is a real life huge talking mouse? Even if a man named the aramaic equivalent of Jesus lived in nazareth at the right time doesn't mean he was the son of God. It's hard because the best lies include the truth.

 

I know how you feel about letting go. There are times I want to go to church just to feel included, to have the sense of community. But I don't want to mislead my mom into thinking I've changed my mind. I also have had problems with hearing bible verses, or believing the big things are false while hanging on to my favorite verses. I think it's all part of the process.

 

Hang in there, as with most everything it will get easier with time. One thing that really helped me was to debate, philosophize, and discuss things with my husband or whoever else would listen. I don't know if you like debating, but it's a great way to think about things you believe in a clearer light.

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Just the other day i was starting to actually give this the time of day: http://www.sibkl.org.my/htm/resources/articles/moses.htm That how bad it can get for me sometimes.

 

Anyway, any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Quoted from Wikipedia,
Ronald Eldon Wyatt (1933 - August 4, 1999) was an amateur archaeologist (he had no training in the discipline and held no professional position) and author who claimed to have discovered many significant biblical sites and artifacts. His claims are dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars and most Christian leaders even in his own Seventh-day Adventist Church, but he continues to be quoted (especially on the Internet).
And even most fundies believe that Ron Wyatt is a fraud.
The more mainstream branches of the evangelical movement are not any less skeptical: Answers in Genesis has called some of Wyatt's claims fraudulent
You know if even if someone as infamous as the Answers In Genesis people think this man is nuts, then he must truly be one of the most unreliable people on the planet.
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Just the other day i was starting to actually give this the time of day: http://www.sibkl.org.my/htm/resources/articles/moses.htm That how bad it can get for me sometimes.

 

You didn't say that this was still bugging you, but the source of that information has a rather dubious background of legitimacy: Ron Wyatt.

 

Here is a Xian article that basically calls him out as a liar:

 

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-AGrea...istianScam.html

 

EDIT: Whoops...looks like NG beat me to it by 20 minutes...that's what I get for not refreshing... :P

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I figured that with time it would ease off, and with each passing day it does get better, little by little. A problem i have that i didn't mention in my above post is that i sometimes go to a christian forum that i was once a full fledged member of to put up points to see if they can counter them. Needless to say, nobody can counter them in the least but i get to reading some of their posts where they put up scripture, scripture that i used to believe and hold dear to my heart. Eh, it's just difficult at times. I'm just glad it is getting better.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

What allows the mind to 'ease off' from fear & self-torture is knowledge and belief. That is one thing the Christians have right. If you believe fully, you relinquish fear & doubt in those moments of total belief. Most Christians, granted, don't do that, but the concept is sound. Once you learn enough, and discover enough that is outside of Christianity and shows the pro/cons of that and other religions, you will reliquish your doubt/fear in favor of belief that these religions are in fact not gospel.

 

For some that takes more time than others. All you can do now is believe that you can get to that point and use your present moments to push yourself towards that point.

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The more you understand what's wrong with Christianity, the more comfortable you will become with being an Ex-Christian.

 

Yes, my thoughts exactly

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I am still in the deconversion process I would say. As a former pastor, I know what you mean. I have been going through a lot as well and your thoughts simply mimic what I have thought in the past. This forum has done WONDERS for me, though, helping me through this situation. I have found more love and acceptance here than in any christian forum that I have moderated or been a part of! Let these guys and gals help ya and all will eventually be ok!

 

If there is anything that you need, let me know!

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I think of some of my friends and family who are christians and i just feel wrong, like it all is wrong.

I kinda felt this way for awhile, like I was somehow outside of the circle of my family and friends or something. But as time passed I realized this didn't really have anything to do with them, I had called god out and this was between me and him and nobody else. I think many people who end up ex-christians (or "ex" any religion) are natural born questioners and thinkers, and I suppose one of the side effects of that is sometimes you have to stand alone, at least if you wish to remain true to yourself. This is a special quality though, and not one that many people have.

 

Whats crazier is that at times i feel like god will strike me down or allow something bad to happen to me or someone or something that i love.

I can only speak for myself, but in the 4 years since I left being a Christian (and I was one most of my life.... raised a pentecostal from childhood), although i've had some bumps in the road due to some career changes I made, I think my life has been on an upward slope. In general I am more confident about myself, I feel physically and mentally strong, I am focused and I no longer have the stress of worrying about my "unsaved" friends and family being tortured for eternity because they choose not to believe that ancient mythology is true. If something bad were to happen to you (and I sincerely hope it doesn't), I would attribute it to the natural consquences of living life, not to the uncontrollable temper tantrums of a psychotic, loving, jealous, forgiving, compassionate, sadistic, schizophrenic, holy, psychopathic mythical deity found in a dusty old book of hallucinations, written by a group of delusional bronze-age sheepherders.

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Yes. it is indeed a lifelong journey; as I like to say 'when you come to the end of God, you come to the start of yourself'.

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'when you come to the end of God, you come to the start of yourself'.

 

That is one of the most helpful comments that I have seen since I started deconverting! It is true...I am finding stuff out about myself that is awesome! It isn't about god, it is about Jayson!

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I just want to say that I understand your terror. I came out of hardcore Pentecostalism 26 years ago. It took 12 years of therapy (with a psychologist) for me to get essentially free of it, and another 2 or 3 after that of just starting to live my life for me, and not for some church pastor or prayer group.

 

The thing you don't hear very often in these forums is that Christianity - and especially fundamentalist, Bible is the inerrant word of God, spirit-filled, Pentecostal or Charismatic Christianity - is so powerful, it takes over a person's every waking moment, and every dream. It takes the place of personal development - retards it and suppresses it. The victim is encouraged to completely surrender his free will and individuality to an idol. Yes, I know, that sounds strange, but follow along with me here.

 

What is an idol? An idol is a graven image of a supernatural being. A statue of Baal is the typical image that comes to mind. But I discovered a fact that was so revolutionary (to me, anyway), that it was what started me on the final road to complete freedom, and that is that idols can me made out of words and thoughts, just as easily as from stone or gold. Men have taken the idea that there must be a god, and have created a mental and word image of it that they worship. Some people worship the bible itself, while others worship a mental image of a man with long hair and a beard, while still others worship his mother, and others have conversations in their heads with some combination of all of these. These are all graven images made of words and thoughts, and the reason men have done this is for two reasons: one, just as the children of Israel created the golden calf to worship, they cannot stand not knowing why the universe is as it is, or where it came from, or why we are here, or what happens to us when we leave these frail bodies we inhabit; and two, pretending to know the answers to these questions gives them power over others.

 

Strip away the internal and external idols, and all we're left with are questions. But here's a bit of truth, learned the hard way: You can live in peace, and not know the answers to any of these questions. I have found that it is sufficient to live each day to the fullest, to never lose an opportunity to connect with other human beings, to live honestly and truthfully with yourself, and to treat others with respect and kindness.

 

Give yourself time away from the idol worshippers. Try counseling, therapy, nature, reading, music, exercise, and spending time with friends and away from theology. If you keep going back to it, it will continue to reinfect you, and tear you apart inside. Stay away from it long enough to find your own way, and to let the suppressed individuality within you blossom and mature.

 

 

peace.

 

 

Rob

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Justin,

 

I recommend you search out the threads on this board that discuss Hell.

 

There was one and maybe two last year where you could read up on the heart wrenching fears that some people endured.

 

There were also a couple other threads where people echoed a similar difficulty as you. I just can't remember what they were. Be assured, you're not alone. You are definitely not alone.

 

As well, I highly recommend that you start a topic on any item that bothers you.

 

Many of us, feel screwed around by our past fundyism and we're happy to share our views.

 

Depending on how much time you have, you might look up brainwashing and Coercive Pursuasion and become more familiar with the psychological mechanisms that cause you to feel guilt. I'm supposing that if you understood this better, you'd more correctly attribute your sense of guilt to the manipulation of asshat fundamentalists rather than blame yourself.

 

Justin, you sound like a really really sincere guy. It makes sence that you feel guilty. I was a sincere believer like you and guilt was a big problem for me too although fear of hell and judgement were not so much for some reason.

 

More importantly than the above... be true to yourself and be proud of who you are. You sound like a cool dude. Take care.

 

Mongo

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Wow. Everyone has given me a wealth of advice and support. I can't thank you enough.

 

The thing i am quickly learning is, as so many of you have said, that fear is conquered by knowledge and truth. The more i discover about christianity the more insane it sounds and the more impossible it is to believe it.

 

Graphicsguy, yes i have come out to them, and boy, they did not like it. Only one guy tried to actually put up some type of rational argument against the links i put up but that only lasted for "one", count it, one post. All the rest said the typical "have faith, just believe, never question, if it doesn't make sense to you, or you can't understand it it is because we are fallible and imperfect beings trying to read the perfect infallible word of god". Also, of course the best, "we will pray for you, change your ways or go to hell". When it starts to get funny, is that a sign that the fear is easing off? lol

 

That link i posted, i posted to illustrate how bad it can be when i worry and doubt, the things i can worry and start to believe in. Yeah i never believed it. I thought since that Egypt was the dominate power in the region for centuries it was possible that they had a shipwreck or two in that length of time and that is how the chariot wheels got there. Really nice info posted by others about the author of the page to.

 

Thanks again guys and gals.

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When it starts to get funny, is that a sign that the fear is easing off?

Yes, I would think so Justin.

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First off: I re-converted too before finally de-converting for the last time almost a year ago.

 

Don't feel guilty for having doubts. Doubts are healthy. Questions are healthy. Searching for more knowledge is good. It's when you think you know everything and aren't open to new ideas that you become unhealthy.

 

i remember when I first lost my faith, I felt horrible for a while. I kept thinking "God (if there is one) must be mad at me" or "I'm going to hell"

 

[When it starts to get funny, is that a sign that the fear is easing off? lol] lol, YES, that's a good sign! The more you can laugh about religion, the more distance you're putting between yourself and who you used to be.

 

You're doing great. Some days will be harder than others, but it looks like you're headed in a good direction!

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'when you come to the end of God, you come to the start of yourself'.

 

That is one of the most helpful comments that I have seen since I started deconverting! It is true...I am finding stuff out about myself that is awesome! It isn't about god, it is about Jayson!

 

slightly off topic I know, but thank you :) . . . I pride myself in being a bit of an armchair philosopher :o)

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