Just Tired

[Guest Clueless]

I don´t know where to start. Maybe I should just say that I have been lurking around this site for the past month or so and have been touched by the testimonies I´ve read. I see so many similar experiences, thoughts and challenges that I have shared. It is good to know that there are others out there.

 

I grew up Southern Baptist. I was in all the way; hook line and sinker. I grew up in the South so how could I not. It absolutely dominates the culture. To be otherwise is unthinkable, unAmerican. So what changed me?

 

My reasons were both intellectual and experiential. From an intellectual point of view I just cant get past the doctrine of original sin and hell. I mean really, the whole proposition is absurd. I learned that God is all-loving but fully just, and this divine justice means that sin can not be in his presence. In stead it must be sentenced to Hell for an eternity (which when you try to understand infinity it just blows your mind) suffering all sorts of cruelty. I ask myself “how is that justice†Justice is a measured response to a wrong. How is eternity in hell justice even for the fowlest of sinners, not to mention my GrandFather who maybe just wasn’t too bright. It doesn´t even account for different cultures. I mean what kind of god is going to send Gandhi or the Dali Lama to hell. Intellectually the same old pat answers that I memorized just don´t cut it anymore.

 

Experientially, some of the meanest, most cruel behaviors I´ve seen have taken place inside the Church, by born again, bible believing, spirit filled christians. The blatent racism, the hypocrisy was just too much. I can honestly say that in my 40 years in the SBC that I only met one preacher that I thought was a good man and even moderately intelligent (no offense to the ex-preachers in the crowd). The opposite has been true in my experience. The preacher is usually the dumbest guy in the room. He´s usually a bully and a politician. He has to learn to be a good politician because the deacon board will run his ass out of town if doesn´t toe the line. I know, I was on the deacon board. I´ve seen behaviors in the church, by pastors, deacon boards, personnel committees that would never happen in the secular business world. I could tell a hundred stories, but from reading the testimonies of others here, I´d just be preaching to the choir. The point is, that I came to realize that this business of sanctification, becoming more Christlike over time is a hoax. I knew some wise old men who were Christians, but I´ve met as many or more who were not christians. The fact that the nastiest politics, the ugliest gossip, the most blatent racism I saw, came directly from the church.

 

I can´t say what was the breaking point. I can´t really even say that I´ve made any break, publicly anyway. Its more like a fading away. I just don’t know if I can stay and feel like an honest man. Its probably the fear of hell that makes it so hard for all of us (an ingenious device for the church) but if God will punish an honest man for eternity, he´s just a harsh SOB. The only logical conclusion I can come to by studying the Bible, OT and NT, is that God is a fearsome, angry being that demands servitude. We must all run around serving him like abused women. He´s like a wife-beater that makes sure that if we even think the wrong thing, or for no reason at all, he might have to slap us around a little, just for our own good. I find myself admiring people, like many of you, who find within themselves the courage to stand up and say Fuck You. It reminds me of that cartoon of a giant eagle with talons extended, swooping down on a tiny doomed mouse. As a last defiant gesture the tiny mouse has his right arm raised and his middle finger extended.

 

So where am I now. Hell, I don’t know. Probably somewhere at the intersection of Buddhism and quantum physics.

 

I´m touched by the healing spirit I see in all the posts here going out to people trying to live life honestly, especially those living in the Bible Belt where to be an honest agnostic or athiest is akin to a mass murder or even worse, a democrat, definitely something they avoid. Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a bit. It´s scary and cathartic at the same time.

[florduh]

Good story/rant, Clueless, and welcome to Heathendom.

 

- Chris

[MathGeek]

Welcome brother Clueless,

 

Heathendom is a wonderful place intellectually and emotionally.

[BigVaden]

As somebody that was born and bread Southern Baptists and grew up in the Bible Belt, I can identify with quite a bit of what you have been through. It did seem like the people at church, with their "holier than thou" attitude and a bible in their hand sure could spew out some pretty nasty things behind other peoples backs.

 

And what you said about them avoiding democrats made me laugh, because it's 100% dead on If you admit to being a democrat around here, you can pretty much expect half of your friends to become akward and slowly stop talking to you.

 

Welcome, Clueless

[alpha centauri]

Welcome, Clueless (though I think you're far from clueless)! Glad you found your way to this forum.

 

Another former Southern Baptist chiming in.

 

What's funny is that some of the denominations I had attended (Presbyterian, Methodist) tend to gloss over the gory details of the Bible. They try to keep the darker side of the biblical god in the closet, so to speak.

 

But the Southern Baptists embrace the entire Bible, word for word, as inspired by god and profitable in every area of our lives. Those who aren't Biblical literalists are considered bad Christians, the "lukewarm" type that god will spit out.

 

But the Baptists have a point, really. You either take the Bible — and all of the Bible — or you leave it. There's no middle ground. That's fine. I choose to leave it. Walk away from it. Denounce it and stand against it.

 

I think the more liberal forms of Christianity are often intelluctually dishonest. They want to cherry pick from the Bible and ignore, rationalize or sanitize the maniacal ravings of this tyrant in the sky. Some liberal denominations even dispute the hell their bible and savior spent so much time harping on. They focus on the peace and love and try to sweep the darker elements of Christianity under the carpet.

 

It's like having a steak dinner mixed with a pile of crap, and thinking it's OK to pick and choose. No thanks! I want no part of that plate, and no part of the twisted religion, whether it's served up straight or watered down.

[Legion]

Hey there Clueless, welcome to ex-C. Pull up a chair, kick back, and relax. You’ve found a heathen lounge, a sanctuary for the wayward. We won’t condemn you to hell or promise you heaven. But we can provide an understanding ear when you need it. Seeing as you are weary then I hope that you will find this place revitalizing.

 

Again welcome.

[mlr72]

Hello, Clueless, and welcome.

 

Alpha Centauri, you nailed it right on the head! While it's infuriating in a way to watch literalists foaming at the mouth with bible in hand, there's something admirable in them that they don't cherry-pick. Then again, the argument against such fervent belief in the idea of Muslim extremists blowing people up for the sake of Allah. They're all or nothing as well. But I don't remember a time when a Southern Baptist strapped bombs to his/her body to kill the heathen for the God's will.

 

Clueless, you brought up the point of God not even being in the presence of sin. If God can't be in the presence of sin, then how can he punish it? How can he punish a murderer if he didn't see the murder take place? If God is totally omnipresent, then surely he there at every murder. And if he is at the scene of a murder, he has looked upon sin. Perhaps I'm oversimplying my point, but to me this is just one more blatant contradiction of the bible.

[Guest Clueless]

As somebody that was born and bread Southern Baptists and grew up in the Bible Belt, I can identify with quite a bit of what you have been through. It did seem like the people at church, with their "holier than thou" attitude and a bible in their hand sure could spew out some pretty nasty things behind other peoples backs.

 

And what you said about them avoiding democrats made me laugh, because it's 100% dead on If you admit to being a democrat around here, you can pretty much expect half of your friends to become akward and slowly stop talking to you.

 

Welcome, Clueless

[Guest Clueless]

As somebody that was born and bread Southern Baptists and grew up in the Bible Belt, I can identify with quite a bit of what you have been through. It did seem like the people at church, with their "holier than thou" attitude and a bible in their hand sure could spew out some pretty nasty things behind other peoples backs.

 

And what you said about them avoiding democrats made me laugh, because it's 100% dead on If you admit to being a democrat around here, you can pretty much expect half of your friends to become akward and slowly stop talking to you.

 

Welcome, Clueless

 

 

Thanks for the welcome, man. When I first started reading the testimonies on this site I noticed the amount of former Southern Baptists. It is good to know I´m not alone. I grew up in the church and have been working out of the country for the past two years and man does that change ones perspective. Just thinking about going back is terrifying. I wont be making any visits to an SBC church, but there´s no escaping them, as you know. I too am really tired of their flag waving, ignorant politics. Are they still sure that the biggest threats to the country are activist judges and homosexuals? I´ve been gone for a while.

 

Clueless

[Guest Clueless]

Welcome, Clueless (though I think you're far from clueless)! Glad you found your way to this forum.

 

Another former Southern Baptist chiming in.

 

What's funny is that some of the denominations I had attended (Presbyterian, Methodist) tend to gloss over the gory details of the Bible. They try to keep the darker side of the biblical god in the closet, so to speak.

 

But the Southern Baptists embrace the entire Bible, word for word, as inspired by god and profitable in every area of our lives. Those who aren't Biblical literalists are considered bad Christians, the "lukewarm" type that god will spit out.

 

But the Baptists have a point, really. You either take the Bible — and all of the Bible — or you leave it. There's no middle ground. That's fine. I choose to leave it. Walk away from it. Denounce it and stand against it.

 

I think the more liberal forms of Christianity are often intelluctually dishonest. They want to cherry pick from the Bible and ignore, rationalize or sanitize the maniacal ravings of this tyrant in the sky. Some liberal denominations even dispute the hell their bible and savior spent so much time harping on. They focus on the peace and love and try to sweep the darker elements of Christianity under the carpet.

 

It's like having a steak dinner mixed with a pile of crap, and thinking it's OK to pick and choose. No thanks! I want no part of that plate, and no part of the twisted religion, whether it's served up straight or watered down.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Alpha Centauri,

 

You make a convincing argument. I just cant buy the whole proposition. But I must admit that I am pretty early in this whole transition. I can see a pattern in the anti testimonies I´ve read of people raised in a fundy denomination trying the more liberal denominations before chucking the whole thing. Maybe I´m making the same mistake, or maybe its just a necessary process (remember I´m clueless). I know that I don´t want to create a whole lot of friction with my family through this whole thing. I guess my reasoning is that maybe I can stomach a more liberal denomination while not drawing a line in the sand that will cause unnecessary friction at home. My wife isn´t quite ready for more than that. We talk alot about the issue and she is supportive of my honest doubts, but I don´t want to push my luck. She has agreed to not going back to a Baptist church (or any fundy denomination) when we return to the states but we have not yet talked about walking away all together. Sounds pretty wimpy huh?

 

I do appreciate the welcome to this site and I do draw strength and insight from all the posts I read here.

 

Clueless as ever

[R. S. Martin]

Hello, Clueless, and welcome.

 

Alpha Centauri, you nailed it right on the head! While it's infuriating in a way to watch literalists foaming at the mouth with bible in hand, there's something admirable in them that they don't cherry-pick. Then again, the argument against such fervent belief in the idea of Muslim extremists blowing people up for the sake of Allah. They're all or nothing as well. But I don't remember a time when a Southern Baptist strapped bombs to his/her body to kill the heathen for the God's will.

 

No, they vote en masse for a president who will send troops to do it for them. At least, some scholars of fundamentalist religion hold that this is what is behind the present war on terrorism.

[Darkside]

Hey Clueless,

 

I hear you on it being hard to leave Christianity altogether. Like you my wife is still a Christian, although she's pretty open to me doing whatever I need to do. She's pretty fed up with the church too -- the difference between us is that I decided I was done with God altogether, she just decided she was done with the fundy attitude so prevalent at our old church.

 

I don't really agree that only fundy Christians are consistent -- they're not, because the Bible itself isn't consistent. It's impossible to take a "consistent" viewpoint when it comes to the Bible. Seems to me the best Christians just use their common sense, then attribute that to the Holy Spirit, and dismiss the harsh parts of the Bible (like the fundies dismiss mercy and love). I still have friends who are Christians, who are probably better people for being Christians, it just didn't work that way for me. Anyway, welcome!

 

Darkside

[Mysteries' Child]

 

But the Baptists have a point, really. You either take the Bible — and all of the Bible — or you leave it. There's no middle ground. That's fine. I choose to leave it. Walk away from it. Denounce it and stand against it.

 

I think the more liberal forms of Christianity are often intelluctually dishonest. They want to cherry pick from the Bible and ignore, rationalize or sanitize the maniacal ravings of this tyrant in the sky. Some liberal denominations even dispute the hell their bible and savior spent so much time harping on. They focus on the peace and love and try to sweep the darker elements of Christianity under the carpet.

 

It's like having a steak dinner mixed with a pile of crap, and thinking it's OK to pick and choose. No thanks! I want no part of that plate, and no part of the twisted religion, whether it's served up straight or watered down.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Alpha Centauri,

 

You make a convincing argument. I just cant buy the whole proposition. But I must admit that I am pretty early in this whole transition. I can see a pattern in the anti testimonies I´ve read of people raised in a fundy denomination trying the more liberal denominations before chucking the whole thing. Maybe I´m making the same mistake, or maybe its just a necessary process (remember I´m clueless). I know that I don´t want to create a whole lot of friction with my family through this whole thing. I guess my reasoning is that maybe I can stomach a more liberal denomination while not drawing a line in the sand that will cause unnecessary friction at home. My wife isn´t quite ready for more than that. We talk alot about the issue and she is supportive of my honest doubts, but I don´t want to push my luck. She has agreed to not going back to a Baptist church (or any fundy denomination) when we return to the states but we have not yet talked about walking away all together. Sounds pretty wimpy huh?

 

I do appreciate the welcome to this site and I do draw strength and insight from all the posts I read here.

 

Clueless as ever

 

I'd probably have to beg to differ with Alpha Centauri on that one. It seems to me that what we've got in the Bible is a book that's been corrupted pretty much from inception, in print anyway. First the Jewish priests wanted to use the lore to control the people, then the Romans set themselves up for another go at power in the guise of the Catholic Church...

 

...and the Protestant Reformation didn't exactly fix things, did it??

 

Rather than "picking and choosing," I'm trying to learn to look at it as sorting the stuff that's actually sacred out of the shit people twisted around and outright fabricated to back up whatever war or tithe system or land parcel they wanted at the time.

 

'Course, good luck doing that. I've been digging thru the Book, and books about the Book, for a couple years now. And I'm not a whole lot closer than I was when I split. A couple of books that at least gave me some new ways to look at it were Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism and Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why.

 

But... *shrug* They shed some new light. Helped with some coming to terms. Helped enable me to pick the Bible up without immediately seeing it as a document that demanded that I be a barefoot, pregnant, subservient home-front enabler of global genocide. Contemplating Paul as a self-despising closet homosexual was an interesting exercise for someone who had never even realized all those books were letters written by a man called Paul. Seeing it-- any of it-- as something other than THE. WORD. OF. GOD. PERIOD. was paradigm-breaking, at least for me, but it didn't even make me consider re-converting.

 

Even to a liberal denomination, though that is the POV they're coming from.

 

And I still think the bloody book may very well be simply too corrupt to be of any real use, other than maybe as a cautionary tale about centralized religion.

 

Clueless-- *hug,* 'cause I think you're right, it's a process, and an unhappy one. And I really wish there had been someone around to offer me hugs when I was extracting my heinie from it all.

 

Yeah, it kind of seems to me that, once fundamentalism gets its poison well into you, the only way to detox yourself is to split Christianity altogether. I know that was my first step in an antidotal direction.

 

Not so everyone, though, I sure.

 

I also think trying more liberal denominations is a part of the process that you have to go thru, and a good logical step. Especially if you're not sure you want to walk, or if you've got relatives to deal with. Not always, but sometimes it helps if they see you try and come to realize that this is sincere and not just 'some silly rebellion that you're going thru.'

 

Whether it helps with the family or not, it may well give you some peace of mind to know that you gave Christianity the fairest shake you could. I haven't tested it or anything, but I think that, if one can leave with one's own heart at least somewhat at peace, it might be a less embittering experience. I know I waited until I'd made peace with it before I told any of my relatives, and it was a lot easier for me to handle their reactions (which started off as bad, but moderated out a lot over a couple years of me not losing my cool).

 

'Course, though some of them are very regular churchgoers, none of my relatives are hard-core fundies. The closest thing I've got to that is a hard-core Deist. So my experience may not apply in that area.

 

You might check out something like the Unitarian Universalists. The few UU services I've attended have been very humanistic, and non-denominational enough to be mostly secular, with a nod to the possibility of the congregation having a JudeoChristian heritage. I'll put it this way-- the last UU service I attended was about the process of moving to a new location and was drawn entirely from The Grapes of Wrath. It felt more like a college-level Literature class than a sermon. ;-)

 

Whatever, put a hug in your pocket for later, and good luck.

[Darkside]

MC,

 

Those books you recommended are good -- I read quite a few books by Spong during the time I was considering being a liberal Christian, but I came away with the impression that once you're done dissecting the New Testament, keeping the good stuff and rejecting the bad, there's not really enough left to base a meaningful religion on; too much bathwater and not enough baby I guess. YMMV.

[R. S. Martin]

Clueless, before you chuck liberal Christianity as cherry-picking. I think I know something about liberal theology, having just completed a Masters degree in theology at a liberal seminary. I did my thesis on fundamentalist theology. So I compared the two.

 

I don't claim a full understanding of the two, but I would say neither cherry-picks. I would say they are two distinctly different ways of seeing God, Bible, self, world, and humanity.

 

For liberal theology the Bible is not the word of god--it CONTAINS the Word of God. There's a major difference. The way I see it, when the Bible merely contains the Word of God, the Bible is a general message, and each human being is expected to apply the Message to his or her own life. The Message is deeper than the actual words contained in any single verse; the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That is why taking the Bible literally is anathema to these liberal thelogians.

 

For example, a loaf of freshly baked bread is a lot greater--or more palatable--than a batch of wheat, water, pork fat, and yeast stashed in a mixing bowl. Yet that list of ingredients is the sum of the parts of homemade bread as I made it. Add a bit of salt and perhaps a few other goodies if you prefer. See what I mean? The liberals want their wheat ground into flour, and their ingredients kneaded into a dough, have it risen, and baked. The literalists say: Wait a minute! we want every grain of wheat to be sure we're not missing or glossing over a tittle of the law.

 

Then they throw out three-quarters of the law and just keep the parts they like--such as be nice to your neighbour which normal people do without being told. (Just checking but none of their women have mentruating huts do they?) Oh yes, and they hate everyone who disagrees with which parts they should have kept--except outlandish (or inconvenient) laws like menstuating huts. I was steeped in Mennonitism the way you were steeped in SBC. Different label; same attitude.

 

If you're interested in investigating this further, I would recommend the HarperCollins Study Bible. It's the New Revised Standard Version, and has many study notes that help one get a nonfundamentalist view/understanding of the Bible. It's what we used at the seminary and it was an eye-opener for me. I can recommend other readings if you are interested. I honestly believe that the liberal view is at least as tenable as the fundamentalist. The fundamentalist theology I have read looks an awful lot like the supreme cherry-picking to me in view of the "whole loaf" perspective.

 

EDIT

However, the fundamentalists have a "story line" around which they choose and set up their scriptures. From that perspective they do not cherry-pick at all. Their goal is to harmonize the Bible from beginning to end, and to do this they have come up with elaborate schemes that the liberals think twist the Message totally out of context. As an exChristian who thinks the central tenets of the Christian faith don't hang together, it matters little to me to which one people hold.

[BigVaden]

Are they still sure that the biggest threats to the country are activist judges and homosexuals? I´ve been gone for a while.

 

Clueless

 

Hehe yeah pretty much. That and anytime they hear the words "gun" and "control" in the same sentence they damn near have a seizure.

[Trev]

Hehe yeah pretty much. That and anytime they hear the words "gun" and "control" in the same sentence they damn near have a seizure.

 

[Guest Clueless]

 

But the Baptists have a point, really. You either take the Bible — and all of the Bible — or you leave it. There's no middle ground. That's fine. I choose to leave it. Walk away from it. Denounce it and stand against it.

 

I think the more liberal forms of Christianity are often intelluctually dishonest. They want to cherry pick from the Bible and ignore, rationalize or sanitize the maniacal ravings of this tyrant in the sky. Some liberal denominations even dispute the hell their bible and savior spent so much time harping on. They focus on the peace and love and try to sweep the darker elements of Christianity under the carpet.

 

It's like having a steak dinner mixed with a pile of crap, and thinking it's OK to pick and choose. No thanks! I want no part of that plate, and no part of the twisted religion, whether it's served up straight or watered down.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Alpha Centauri,

 

You make a convincing argument. I just cant buy the whole proposition. But I must admit that I am pretty early in this whole transition. I can see a pattern in the anti testimonies I´ve read of people raised in a fundy denomination trying the more liberal denominations before chucking the whole thing. Maybe I´m making the same mistake, or maybe its just a necessary process (remember I´m clueless). I know that I don´t want to create a whole lot of friction with my family through this whole thing. I guess my reasoning is that maybe I can stomach a more liberal denomination while not drawing a line in the sand that will cause unnecessary friction at home. My wife isn´t quite ready for more than that. We talk alot about the issue and she is supportive of my honest doubts, but I don´t want to push my luck. She has agreed to not going back to a Baptist church (or any fundy denomination) when we return to the states but we have not yet talked about walking away all together. Sounds pretty wimpy huh?

 

I do appreciate the welcome to this site and I do draw strength and insight from all the posts I read here.

 

Clueless as ever

 

I'd probably have to beg to differ with Alpha Centauri on that one. It seems to me that what we've got in the Bible is a book that's been corrupted pretty much from inception, in print anyway. First the Jewish priests wanted to use the lore to control the people, then the Romans set themselves up for another go at power in the guise of the Catholic Church...

 

...and the Protestant Reformation didn't exactly fix things, did it??

 

Rather than "picking and choosing," I'm trying to learn to look at it as sorting the stuff that's actually sacred out of the shit people twisted around and outright fabricated to back up whatever war or tithe system or land parcel they wanted at the time.

 

'Course, good luck doing that. I've been digging thru the Book, and books about the Book, for a couple years now. And I'm not a whole lot closer than I was when I split. A couple of books that at least gave me some new ways to look at it were Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism and Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why.

 

But... *shrug* They shed some new light. Helped with some coming to terms. Helped enable me to pick the Bible up without immediately seeing it as a document that demanded that I be a barefoot, pregnant, subservient home-front enabler of global genocide. Contemplating Paul as a self-despising closet homosexual was an interesting exercise for someone who had never even realized all those books were letters written by a man called Paul. Seeing it-- any of it-- as something other than THE. WORD. OF. GOD. PERIOD. was paradigm-breaking, at least for me, but it didn't even make me consider re-converting.

 

Even to a liberal denomination, though that is the POV they're coming from.

 

And I still think the bloody book may very well be simply too corrupt to be of any real use, other than maybe as a cautionary tale about centralized religion.

 

Clueless-- *hug,* 'cause I think you're right, it's a process, and an unhappy one. And I really wish there had been someone around to offer me hugs when I was extracting my heinie from it all.

 

Yeah, it kind of seems to me that, once fundamentalism gets its poison well into you, the only way to detox yourself is to split Christianity altogether. I know that was my first step in an antidotal direction.

 

Not so everyone, though, I sure.

 

I also think trying more liberal denominations is a part of the process that you have to go thru, and a good logical step. Especially if you're not sure you want to walk, or if you've got relatives to deal with. Not always, but sometimes it helps if they see you try and come to realize that this is sincere and not just 'some silly rebellion that you're going thru.'

 

Whether it helps with the family or not, it may well give you some peace of mind to know that you gave Christianity the fairest shake you could. I haven't tested it or anything, but I think that, if one can leave with one's own heart at least somewhat at peace, it might be a less embittering experience. I know I waited until I'd made peace with it before I told any of my relatives, and it was a lot easier for me to handle their reactions (which started off as bad, but moderated out a lot over a couple years of me not losing my cool).

 

'Course, though some of them are very regular churchgoers, none of my relatives are hard-core fundies. The closest thing I've got to that is a hard-core Deist. So my experience may not apply in that area.

 

You might check out something like the Unitarian Universalists. The few UU services I've attended have been very humanistic, and non-denominational enough to be mostly secular, with a nod to the possibility of the congregation having a JudeoChristian heritage. I'll put it this way-- the last UU service I attended was about the process of moving to a new location and was drawn entirely from The Grapes of Wrath. It felt more like a college-level Literature class than a sermon. ;-)

 

Whatever, put a hug in your pocket for later, and good luck.

 

 

Wow, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate the book recomendations as well. I´ll check them out. I might check out the UU as well, if I can find a UU church. One of the things that is just sticking in my craw is the exclusivity of christianity, at least the brands I´ve been exposed to. I just can´t believe that an all loving, all powerful god would send most of the world to an everlasting hell. It seems like the fundy god has more issues than I do and needs a hug worse than me. How can I worship him at the point of a gun? I don´t know much about the Universalists but the title would infer inclusivity rather than exclusivity.

 

I hope that I can find some denomination that would accept the honest questioning of an agnostic. If there is a god out there I really haven´t been able to find him, and I´ve looked really hard. Why would a god that loved me be so damned hard to find. If he/she/it really cares about humanity I can´t tell it. Who was it that said god is an absentee landlord? Pretty close to an honest observation.

 

I believe that there is great wisdom out there contained in the worlds religions. I have been reading a lot lately about Eastern religions, primarily Buddhism, and there is much there that I am drawn to. Maybe UU will be a good fit, besides "The Grapes of Wrath" is one of my favorite novels. Ever been to an Episcopal church? Aren´t they kind of liberal?

 

BTW, I loved your line about Paul and I always wondered why some women fundies I know are even more dogmatic than the men.

 

 

Still Clueless

[Guest LoveAll]

Greetings & welcome,

 

To be honest, you don't seem very "clueless" at all to me, more like the opposite. It must be a real shocker to begin to wake-up to seeing how you have been deceived, I applaud & admire your courage & determination. I grew up in a conservative county with mostly Fundamentalists, Baptists, Evangelical, little mix of everything, I suppose. Perhaps I was just lucky I had agnostic, non-church going parents, but I never bought into the whole "God" concept, it seemd a little too pat of an answer for this incredible world of ours.

If you read my introduction post, it will tell you more about my story. After my own dark night of the soul, including drug addiction & failed relationships, I discovered Buddhist Teachings & became a practicing Zen Buddhist. Spent a little time in a non-denominational Buddhist Retreat Center & later a brief Residence in a Zen Buddhist Monastery.

At present, I don't consider myself a formal "Buddhist." You might say I am just a person who has had a profound, wonderful re-connection to Life, learning to truly care for my fellow human beings through this spiritual practice. A few years ago, when I lived in a town about two hours northwest of where I live now, I was a meditation teacher at a Unitarian Universalist church. After first mullling it over for a few months at the time, I decided to create & lead a sitting meditation group for people with; "any, all or none" in the way of religious beliefs. While I gave a "Dharma" talk at the end of the sitting period, I kept it rather spiritually generic, yet very relevant to our lives. It went over well, when I left the city to come back to my parents town, (to help take care of my Father until he died) the Group was still going & growing.

The Unitarian Universalists are an interesting mix, to say the least. You have people there who are dyed-in-the-wool atheists, you have people who are curious agnostics, then there are those who believe in a more traditional religious concept, but in a more "liberal & loving God" than most churches.

The core belief of the Church is spiritual exploration with Fellowship. Nobody sets up a book such as the Bible as the Doctrine to follow, you are encourged to explore & choose for yourself. Their hymnal has Christian, Buddhist, Native American, etc, songs, all types of spiritual literature is utilized by Unitarian Universalists. It is nice to have fellowship, I may even go back to it, if I ever return to that town.

Anyway, just wanted to introduce myself & let you know that you have plenty of options.

Please take good care of yourself.

Doug

[Mysteries' Child]

Wow, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate the book recomendations as well. I´ll check them out. I might check out the UU as well, if I can find a UU church.

 

Check out your nearest decent-sized university. IME, most college towns have one.

 

One of the things that is just sticking in my craw is the exclusivity of christianity, at least the brands I´ve been exposed to. I just can´t believe that an all loving, all powerful god would send most of the world to an everlasting hell. It seems like the fundy god has more issues than I do and needs a hug worse than me.

 

An all-loving God wouldn't. But it's like bad news in the paper-- good news doesn't sell papers, and teaching stuff like that doesn't fill the pews or the collection plate, and it doesn't get people to obey. So I think some of them think, anyway, and the others have been fed hellfire for so long that they can't think past it. I could probably beg to differ.

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the FundiGod is actually a heck of a lot closer to the Christian concept of Satan that to a loving God.

 

How can I worship him at the point of a gun?

 

Methinks you can't. And trying won't do any good, 'cause it's not honest.

 

I don´t know much about the Universalists but the title would infer inclusivity rather than exclusivity.

 

Very much so. At least, that is true of the congregation in Fayetteville, AR.

 

I hope that I can find some denomination that would accept the honest questioning of an agnostic.

 

There are definitely denoms out there that can be found. If you don't have any luck with organized denominations, talk with yourself, and to other individuals. Try to figure out what you think, without looking for leadership. Dunno if it will do you any good or not, but it was helpful to me.

 

I believe that there is great wisdom out there contained in the worlds religions. I have been reading a lot lately about Eastern religions, primarily Buddhism, and there is much there that I am drawn to.

 

Then that is an excellent place to look. That's why I grabbed at some kind of Paganism-- because I had, on some level anyway, believed in magic for as long as I could remember, couldn't (quite) shake it, and couldn't believe it was all necessarily evil.

 

Ever been to an Episcopal church? Aren´t they kind of liberal?

 

Once, a long long long long time ago. They had a sand table for their Bible School classes. ;-) Yeah-- it was that long ago. Some of them are, and some of them have got so bent out of shape over the whole homosexuality thing that they're taking a veer to the right. I think that's Episcopalians, anyway. I might be thinking of Presbyterians.

 

Anyway, I'm a firm believer that, if you're seeking, pretty much everything that sparks some level of interest is worth checking out at least once.

 

BTW, I loved your line about Paul and I always wondered why some women fundies I know are even more dogmatic than the men.

 

Well, I read in a Psychology text once that there's some kind of phenomenon where, the more you sacrifice for something, the more ardently you will believe in it. Fundamental Christianity seems to me to be generally a good bit harder on women than men, with the whole pooproll about submission and original sin (I know they don't call it that, but a turd by any other name is just as slick). Ergo...

 

 

Still Clueless

 

Nah. You just feel clueless. In a little while, you'll get used to this, and the feeling will start to fade.