Polygamist Cult?

[Guest kiwi888]

I was just wondering if many of you are hearing the same discussions that I'm hearing about the Polygamist Mormons in the news. I am one of few non-believers in my family (which is in the hundreds, possibly more...I don't count anymore). So I still get to hear lots of holier than thou statements (i'm not completely out to everyone in my immediate family...yet).

 

I guess what turns my stomach lately is the self-righteous tone the Christians use when speaking of them. It seems that if you're in a 'mainstream' religion, where millions back you up, you're okay. But these polygamists are 'cults'. It's all the same bible cult to me. For years I grew up listening to how the Catholics had it wrong and the Baptists have it wrong and the Methodists and everyone but their particular group. Everyone thinks everyone else's group is 'wrong' about their man made book. But they band together against the 'cultish' ones. I include the media too. I hear such a shocked, condescending tone when they report on 'these people'. Shock and outrage. But no shock and outrage over every mainstream religion believing in an all powerful, loving, omnipotent, invisible being who has a disturbing need (demand) to be worshiped!

 

I guess I just had to vent over what I call the zombification of millions...................

[Guest Zenobia]

I guess what turns my stomach lately is the self-righteous tone the Christians use when speaking of them. It seems that if you're in a 'mainstream' religion, where millions back you up, you're okay. But these polygamists are 'cults'. It's all the same bible cult to me

 

I'd have to say I agree with you... To be honest, I think if people want to live a polygamist lifestyle and if they really are happy, then they should be allowed to live that way. I support all non-traditional mariages... as long as people aren't being hurt. However I would not support an "arranged" marriage, especially with a minor child involved. Amazingly, 60% of the world's mariages are still "arranged"... wow.

 

Getting back to polygamy, it blows my mind that any man would want more than one women! I would think that one woman would keep him plenty occupied, just MHO... I think having two of me would kill my husband On the other hand, I wouldn't mind a harem of males serving me at my beck and call. Bwahahahah!

 

Did you ever watch the HBO series, Big Love? I watched some of it, and found it intreguing but I was also annoyed at how religious they were... and how hypocritical. I sure wouldn't want to live in Utah!

[Jincks013]

Webster defines a cult as " a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents" which fits xtianinty to a T. There are as many different styles of xtianity as there are different styles of clothing, or lack of. What makes one a 'cult' and not another? They are all part of the same basic cult. They have a religious organization with its own beliefs and rituals and adherents. Xtianity is, by definition, a cult.

[hereticzero]

In early Rome, Christianity was the cult of nonbelievers. They were considered atheists and were killed because the law was you had to believe in something to keep the gods from becoming jealous of not being worshiped. Every god that was known was worshiped. The Romans saw the xtian belief of not bowing before gods as disrespect to the gods. Now, xtianity thinks itself to be the spokesman of the world.

 

The misfortunes of others makes xtians more self-righteous, that it is their way of thinking and their faith that matters. Religion is out of step with the needs of humanity. The polygamist that use their children under the age of consent for wives should go to jail for statutory rape. I don't give a shit what their religion. It's not the number of wives or husbands, it's the way in which they obtain their spouses that is the rub. The age of consent for marriage differs from state to state, most are 17 at the youngest. Polygamist have a thing for 14 years of age and younger girls. Polygamy as well as polyamory, are personal choices that should also depend on the age of consent. A child, even in a religious cult, cannot give their consent to marriage or sexual intercourse if they are below the age of consent. It is not a religious matter. It is a law, a legislative matter. The govt. finds it hard to prosecute for polygamy, therefore, it goes after the cult for endangering children under the age of consent. It is easier to prosecute someone when they have a pregnant 14 year old as a fifth wife too. Sometimes the govt. gets something right. Polygamy is not always a victimless crime.

[Guest kiwi888]

Yes, agreed. Pedophilia and child abuse shouldn't go unpunished. But my whole thing is how superior the xtians think they are when talking down about ANY other cult/religion, whether it's pagans, Jews, Muslims or even the different categories/versions of their own xtianity. Mind-boggling at times.

 

 

In early Rome, Christianity was the cult of nonbelievers. They were considered atheists and were killed because the law was you had to believe in something to keep the gods from becoming jealous of not being worshiped. Every god that was known was worshiped. The Romans saw the xtian belief of not bowing before gods as disrespect to the gods. Now, xtianity thinks itself to be the spokesman of the world.

 

The misfortunes of others makes xtians more self-righteous, that it is their way of thinking and their faith that matters. Religion is out of step with the needs of humanity. The polygamist that use their children under the age of consent for wives should go to jail for statutory rape. I don't give a shit what their religion. It's not the number of wives or husbands, it's the way in which they obtain their spouses that is the rub. The age of consent for marriage differs from state to state, most are 17 at the youngest. Polygamist have a thing for 14 years of age and younger girls. Polygamy as well as polyamory, are personal choices that should also depend on the age of consent. A child, even in a religious cult, cannot give their consent to marriage or sexual intercourse if they are below the age of consent. It is not a religious matter. It is a law, a legislative matter. The govt. finds it hard to prosecute for polygamy, therefore, it goes after the cult for endangering children under the age of consent. It is easier to prosecute someone when they have a pregnant 14 year old as a fifth wife too. Sometimes the govt. gets something right. Polygamy is not always a victimless crime.

[Guest kiwi888]

I haven't caught the show, but wanted to because I like Bill Paxton. (Ever see him in Frailty? creepy religious horror!) When I have a moment, I'm catching up on Weeds and The L Word!

 

 

I guess what turns my stomach lately is the self-righteous tone the Christians use when speaking of them. It seems that if you're in a 'mainstream' religion, where millions back you up, you're okay. But these polygamists are 'cults'. It's all the same bible cult to me

 

Did you ever watch the HBO series, Big Love? I watched some of it, and found it intreguing but I was also annoyed at how religious they were... and how hypocritical. I sure wouldn't want to live in Utah!

[par4dcourse]

Over 10,000 branches of xtianity. Derived from one bible. And each and every one think they are the sole representation of the truth. <sarcasm> Can we say unity? </sarcasm>

[Vomit Comet]

I gotta say, this particular sect is pretty fucking creepy. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's the creepiest religion in America.

 

We here in Las Vegas are particularly aware of this, believe it or not. Warren Jeffs was holed up here when they arrested him. Also, every time they expelled one of their low-ranked teenage boys so that there would be more fresh young female meat to go around for the old perverts, they would stuff the damned soul into a van, drive all the way here to Sin City and dump them in a parking lot somewhere. There's a center somewhere in town that helps these boys. From what I understand, it's almost like trying to socialize autistic teenagers, that's how headfucked and unsocialized they are.

 

In early Rome, Christianity was the cult of nonbelievers. They were considered atheists and were killed because the law was you had to believe in something to keep the gods from becoming jealous of not being worshiped. Every god that was known was worshiped. The Romans saw the xtian belief of not bowing before gods as disrespect to the gods. Now, xtianity thinks itself to be the spokesman of the world.

 

The Romans exempted the Jews from having to worship the various other gods, mainly because Judaism was very old and they had reverence for things they considered "ancient." When it became clear that Christianity was a seperate thing altogether, they tried to get the Christians to pay tribute to other gods, particularly Caeser. They tried to refuse like the Jews did and that's what pissed off the Romans originally. The Romans were sophisticated enough to know that for most people it was just a silly tradition and that you didn't have to believe in the gods you were sending tribute to, but when the Christians got all rigid and black-and-white about it they were compelled to enforce their own laws.

[Mysteries' Child]

The whole 'Cult! Cult!' thing ticks me off too. I think, actually, it was the first thing that put my back-hair up against Christianity-- listening to my grandmother (American Baptist) call my best friend's (Independent Baptist) church a cult, and conversely listening to the IFB's carry on about how anyone who wasn't right there in that building right then was going to BUR-RUN IN HEY-YELL.

 

Sheesh. Seems like, on the street, the best practical definition of 'cult' is 'people who do not believe or practice as I do.'

 

I'm starting to understand why people decide they simply want no more to do with any religion of any kind period. Sorting thru the crap to find the grain of usable teaching can be a couple of full-time jobs.

 

That said, I don't know what I think of the FLDS on the whole.

 

Rulon T. Jeffs and his little Jeffslet apparently created something very, very sick and very, very wrong.

 

Before them?? I don't know. I've read at least a couple accounts of people being happy in the religion before these people became the power structure. That, pre-Jeffs, corporal punishment was acceptable, but *beating kids* was not. And YES, there is a difference between 'a spanking' and 'a beating'. That, once upon a pre-Jeffs time, children were expected to work, but they were also permitted to laugh and to play and to be children.

 

I think that what someone can perpetrate upon their family in the name of "being Godly" is one of the most evil things I've witnessed in my own life, and I haven't witnessed it to anything like a Jeffs Extreme. I think it makes me want to puke.

 

But, having been painted with a few too many broad brushes-- and having been guilty of painting with one a time or two-- I can't bring myself to assume that they're all like him.

 

I can't bring myself to condemn polygamy alltogether. I figure it's just like any thing else-- some people that practice it are basically OK, and some people that practice it are tyrannical freakin' creepazoids.

 

I think I still believe-- and I know I hope-- that the majority of these people are victims. Just victims of a tyrannical leader, doing what victims have always done-- depending on someone else to interpret reality for them, depending on someone else to give their lives order and meaning, depending on someone else to understand "God" for them.

 

I think that there are probably proportionally more creeps among them-- 'cause I think that highly authoritarian structures tend to breed creepiness. But I also still think that a fair number of them are decent, and I still hope that they get de-victimized. I hope they learn that they don't have to take the word of "God" from someone who encourages beating, throws teenage boys out in the street, and marrys off 13-year-olds. I hope they learn that there's a difference between 'submitting your own desires to the Will of God' and the little pain of disappointment that that sometimes brings and 'letting someone committ abuse in the name of God' and the constant agony of unremitting cognitive dissonance that brings. I hope that there are decent among them, and that the decent among them will get de-programmed, get their kids back, and get to get on with living their lives (within some dim constraint of reason, ie don't batter, don't abandon, and don't commit statutory rape) in the way that they see fit.

 

I also acknowledge that I might just feel that way because it's all too easy for me to put my little Pagan feet in their shoes.

 

And that my hope is a pretty damn thin one indeed.

 

More than anything, I want those poor kids to be happy, and to be safe. I hope it doesn't mean that none of them ever see their families again...

 

...but if that's what it means, well, I wish them peace.

 

I'd take a whole sibling group-- however many that meant-- but I think they'd find my family's lifestyle entirely too much of a shock. TV, Internet, processed food, and 'normal' clothes would be only the beginning there...

[babysealclubber]

I gotta say, this particular sect is pretty fucking creepy. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's the creepiest religion in America.

 

You may enjoy this video, if you haven't seen it already.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tICf7MaXyKs

 

I think it really highlights the overall creepiness of the situation.

[Guest Zenobia]

*shudder* just looking at them creeps me out. Frumpy PASTEL dresses, no makeup, vacant expression in eyes, and that stupid, fake smile. Takes me right back to my church days. Different church, same creepiness.... *icky*!!!

[woodsmoke]

Getting back to polygamy, it blows my mind that any man would want more than one women! I would think that one woman would keep him plenty occupied, just MHO... I think having two of me would kill my husband On the other hand, I wouldn't mind a harem of males serving me at my beck and call. Bwahahahah!

Well, in the case of honest polyamorous relationships, it doesn't seem to really be about "wanting more than one woman." I'm sure if K were ever to say that about the woman he and his wife used to live with the latter would skin him alive (never mind that he'd never say that in the first place). As near as I can tell, what really happens is life simply works out in such a way as the people involved have met and fallen in love with multiple people rather than the monogamous one which is conventional in our culture.

 

'Course, if I were ever to find the door to the magical fantasy land in which there are multiple women willing to be my no-emotional-strings-attached fuck buddy, I'm fairly certain I'd be diving through quicker than one can blink, as well.

 

Did you ever watch the HBO series, Big Love? I watched some of it, and found it intriguing but I was also annoyed at how religious they were... and how hypocritical. I sure wouldn't want to live in Utah!

To be fair, a polygamist family on cable TV hardly represents the whole of Utah. While we do seem to* have more religious polygamist communities out this way than other states, in actuality they only compose a small and usually willfully isolated minority of the overall population. The vast majority of Utah residents are just regular Mormons, with only one wife whom they married at 18 or 19 years old. In fact, aside from the "magic underwear" (which will never really factor into anything, but which most folks who don't know much about Mormonism just can't seem to get over) and the cultural quirks, you'd be hard-pressed to find any vast differences between the average Mormon and the average Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic or any other mainstream denominational American.

 

Here in the Salt Lake valley, where that show is set, it's actually even better. We're kind of a liberal blue oasis in the middle of the vast and deep sea of red that is the mountain west. There are more non-Mormons here than LDS, and we consistently elect liberal democrats to every office we can--much to the chagrin of the rest of the state.

 

Webster defines a cult as " a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents" which fits xtianinty to a T. There are as many different styles of xtianity as there are different styles of clothing, or lack of. What makes one a 'cult' and not another? They are all part of the same basic cult. They have a religious organization with its own beliefs and rituals and adherents. Xtianity is, by definition, a cult.

Or, to go with the Working Definition: A religion is simply a cult with political influence.

 

The Romans exempted the Jews from having to worship the various other gods, mainly because Judaism was very old and they had reverence for things they considered "ancient." When it became clear that Christianity was a seperate thing altogether, they tried to get the Christians to pay tribute to other gods, particularly Caeser. They tried to refuse like the Jews did and that's what pissed off the Romans originally. The Romans were sophisticated enough to know that for most people it was just a silly tradition and that you didn't have to believe in the gods you were sending tribute to, but when the Christians got all rigid and black-and-white about it they were compelled to enforce their own laws.

Heh, exactly. Like any good government, the Romans didn't give two gliding shits what you really believed in--all they cared was that you paid your taxes and didn't rock the boat.

 

That said, I don't know what I think of the FLDS on the whole.

 

Rulon T. Jeffs and his little Jeffslet apparently created something very, very sick and very, very wrong.

 

Before them?? I don't know. I've read at least a couple accounts of people being happy in the religion before these people became the power structure. That, pre-Jeffs, corporal punishment was acceptable, but *beating kids* was not. And YES, there is a difference between 'a spanking' and 'a beating'. That, once upon a pre-Jeffs time, children were expected to work, but they were also permitted to laugh and to play and to be children.

 

I think that what someone can perpetrate upon their family in the name of "being Godly" is one of the most evil things I've witnessed in my own life, and I haven't witnessed it to anything like a Jeffs Extreme. I think it makes me want to puke.

 

But, having been painted with a few too many broad brushes-- and having been guilty of painting with one a time or two-- I can't bring myself to assume that they're all like him.

 

I can't bring myself to condemn polygamy alltogether. I figure it's just like any thing else-- some people that practice it are basically OK, and some people that practice it are tyrannical freakin' creepazoids.

Thank you.

 

Don't get me wrong, the FLDS are crazy, but you're right; before the Jeffs came along and started not just shaking the tree, but uprooting it, their crazy wasn't really hurting anyone--at least not the way it did once Rulon and his brood took over. And honestly, the real truth is the "bad" polygamists like Rulon and Warren Jeffs, Tom Green and the few others you may have heard about on the news in the past 10 years or so are the glaring exception to the rule. Even Tom Green wasn't necessarily a "bad" polygamist, he was just too stupid to see several excellent opportunities to shut up. Most of the polygamist communities out here are (almost) totally self-sufficient (thus putting the lie to the myth all those kids are a severe drain on the social welfare system--most polygamists are even more opposed to government aid than rural, blue collar workers) and very adept at flying under the radar, and just want to be left the hell alone to do their own thing. In truth, most could be described as die hard libertarians.

 

'Course, the court of public opinion hates to get its hands dirty with inconvenient little details like that, so they simply pull out the broad "polygamists are bad, mkay?" brush and make with the painting.

[jdog]

That is one creepy video. It reminds me of the original Stepford Wives movie, these women have been programmed to act all the same way. Same clothes, same hairstyles, same monotone voice, same words.....weired, too weired.

[Mysteries' Child]

That's one creepy video.

 

I dunno what's creepier-- the programmed smiles, meek'n'mild voices, and claims of being free when I've also been told that they were forcibly isolated and fed lies about the outside world (I mean, it's pretty messed up around here, but no one is going to force them to, like, get a bob and pick up a new man every Friday night)...

 

...or the fact that someone, somewhere, chooses to take the point of view of a group that is different and distasteful and mock it. If things are as bad as the media implies-- and I find it noteworthy that the numbers in at least one source I've read (the only hard numbers I've read on the specific subject) seem to imply that the majority of the women chose not to return to the YFZ Ranch-- they need help, not ridicule.

[Mysteries' Child]

Obviously, the women featured in the video are beyond help right now...

 

...but that's not a reason to mock them.

 

Trying to believe the best of people, though, I guess everyone copes in their own way.

 

I dunno. I'm going to go outside and play with my kids. Live, for an hour or two, in a world that doesn't make me want to vomit.