Church Attrition And Ex-christianity

[Vomit Comet]

Peruse, if you will, the following links:

 

American Theocracy

 

This opens up a PDF file, just so you know: it's a journal article; read the lit review on "Religious Economy Theory"

 

I'm a good bit interested in researching "church attrition" per the phenomenon of "ex-Christianity", from a sociological perspective. If you read all our stories, it would seem that ex-Christians are individuals that assert their agency after using their minds to come to their own conclusions about things, and they break out of an organized belief system all on their own power. In other words, anomalies, with no rhyme or reason behind it statistically. However, I suspect that it will vary from church to church, from context to context, and that it can't be fully reduced to the proclivities of idiosyncratic individuals reacting peculiarly to their environments.

 

Now, I'd like to say that this isn't just me rambling away at 3 a.m., as is often my wont. This might actually turn into actual published research. Not that I'm anywhere near the top of the disciplinary totem pole, or all that near the middle either, so don't expect any New York Times bestsellers here. Still, this could turn into actual published research, rather than simply disappearing into the ether of the internet. I'm just sayin'....

 

Also, if you know of relevant research that has addressed this topic, by all means let me know. Thus far in my career, I've never touched religion as a research specialty so I am not very familiar with the literature. I probably should have done as much of a literature search as I could before starting this thread... but maybe it's better doing things in this order. We'll see.

 

So, with all that said, here's some very preliminary propositions I would like to float in front of you all. By all means, nitpick away! The more you pick it apart, the more it helps me. So, without further adieu (and these are in no particular order):

 

1.

 

Recall the paradigm of the seeds sown (shallow soil, weeds, and all that). You have people who were half-assed casually interested who then kind of wander off (the wind blows away the seeds). You have people who think it's bullshit right off the bat (the birds come and pluck the seed away before it can take) or who aren't interested, or who for some reason or another just don't take the bait. You have people who are converted, but then who balk at the first sign of trouble (scorched by the sun) and ditch it fairly early on. You have people who start to doubt, start to get disillusioned, and they walk away (the weeds planted by the devil).

 

So Jesus Himself actually provides a pretty good template of who walks away and why! But what's missing from that template? I should like to put together an exhaustive list. Ex-Christians though, I would venture to say, are a category all their own.

 

Half-assed operational definition of ex-Christians (hey, it's late...): they were full-blown believers per whatever denomination they were in, usually but not always some form of fundamentalism that made absolute demands on their minds and behavior, but then they came to disbelieve and made a complete break from A) the belief system, the church setting itself, C) and, a lot of the time (though not all the time, or sometimes only to a partial degree), their friends and associates from that setting.

 

But who else wanders off? Not all who wander off from church would qualify as ex-Christians. For example, I remember at the youth group I got saved at as a teenager, probably 90% of the kids there were unchurched kids off the street with no serious religious upbringing to speak of. A good majority of them never got with the program. They were just there to rendezvous with their friends, play the fun games, and so on. A few were curious, and a sizeable chunk were converted, but most didn't give a shit at any point. Although this youth group I was in may have been a special, unusual case.

 

i.

 

With fundie churches, how many become full-blown ex-Christians, and who (personality, set of experiences, peer/family influence, etc.) is more likely to? What about in not-so-fundie churches?

 

ii.

 

With fundie churches, how many people "downgrade" (so to speak) to a more innocuous version of Christianity? And who is more likely to go this route? What about in not-quite-so-fundie churches?

 

iii.

 

With fundie churches, who is more likely to walk away but not disbelieve? As in, go around and live their lives as they see fit, but keeping the whole "God" thing in the back of their minds. What about in not-so-fundie churches?

 

iv.

 

With fundie churches, who is more likely to show up not giving much of a shit, stay for a little bit while not giving much of a shit, and then wander off while still not giving much of a shit? Not-so-fundie churches? I guess it will depend on an individual church's ability to filter out, or identify and harass, those who don't give much of a shit.

 

v.

 

Oh, let's not forget the Catholics in all this! Mormons too, while we're at it, and whoever else.

 

2.

 

According to the Theory of Religious Economy, the fundie churches are growing (well, not everywhere) because they demand more of their followers and it's a balls-to-the-wall all-or-nothing deal. Whereas the wishy-washy oldline liberal denoms have been bleeding to death, because they don't give as much of a shit, and in the end their adherents don't give as much of a shit. In Europe, the state-sponsored churches, particularly in the Protestant north, became comfortably complacent, enjoying a virtual monopoly, with competing sects being a negligible minority. So that did a lot to accelerate their decline.

 

So, can it be posited that ex-Christians as we understand the term are going to be more numerous from the fundie churches than from the mainline churches? Also, will those who come to disbelieve from within the fundie churches have to make more of an "extreme break"? I imagine it's easier to slip away from a mainline church.

 

Let me state it this way: the harder you hit something, the greater that object's reaction will be. (Very crude physics there.) So the person who walks away from a warm fuzzy oldline liberal church has been hit with a nerf bat, whereas the one who walks away from a hardcore fundie church has been hit with a cro-bar. Those who have been hit with a cro-bar are more likely to go the way of ex-Christianity (the polar opposite of being a believing real-deal Christian, shall we say), whereas those who have been hit by a nerf bat will tend more to just become typically non-observant Americans. Is this an okay formula? Please, pick it apart to your hearts' content!

 

3.

 

Education. We all know that the average European is more educated and cosmopolitan (speaking multiple languages, international travel, etc.) than the average American. Yes, there are quantitative measures behind this. They also have more of a perspective on church history. Also, in the USA, statistically speaking, when "education" goes up, "religiosity" goes down. Though there will be pentecostals with PhDs, and there will be atheists with 8th grade educations.

 

Anyways, will ex-Christianity vary according to region, denomination (cerebral/staid vs. populist/wild it is?), education, and class? Are there more micro-sociological factors at work (how abusive or overbearing one's parents were, for example) at work as well that might influence rates?

 

How will it correlate with local rates of Christian religiosity (or non- or anti-religiosity?)? Are there going to be more ex-Christians in Seattle as opposed to Houston, or is it vice versa?

 

Are more hidebound hardcore denominations (Southern Baptists in the Bible Belt) going to produce more or less ex-Christians than more laid back versions of fundamentalism (i.e., Rick Warren California shopping mall mega-churches)?

 

Will it matter how your parents treated you? Your pastor? Your peers? Will the number and attitude of non-Christians surrounding the person have any influence that can be discerned statistically?

 

4.

 

Any other ideas?

 

I supsect that one oft-overlooked factor behind church attrition is lack of romantic opportunity. Notice how they always told you not to fall into the trap of "missionary dating." But what're you gonna do if your church is a romantic dry hole, and they keep telling you to shut up whenever you complain about your needs not getting met? You can only take it for so long before going nuts. I know that was damn well the case with me.

 

............................

 

Anyways, no need to address every last thing. By all means, just jump on whatever item catches your eye.

[ShackledNoMore]

I read an interesting book on this very topic last year. It's worth checking out if you haven't already read it: Amazing Conversions: Why Some Turn to Faith & Others Abandon Religion, by Bob Altemeyer and Bruce Hunsberger

[Vomit Comet]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... eeeeenteresting. Thanks very much, SNM! This is most definitely a "must read" for my lit review.

 

I think what I'm going after is a look at "attrition." Ex-Christians are the polar opposites of hardcore believers, but I suspect there are many degrees along the way. I want to see how it varies from context to context, not just in the rates of attritions but who leaves and why.

 

So here's a rough continuum, in very, very rough ascending order:

 

1. Showed up not giving a shit, didn't give a shit while there, left without giving a shit.

 

2. Half-assed professed to believe, didn't amount to much, drifted away without too much thought.

 

3. Casually lapsed into disbelief or indifference without any personal drama involved. (More likely in liberal church? Does it ever happen this way?)

 

4. Was kind of on the fence for a time, considering it, teeter-tottering back and forth, and then decided against it. (Slightly more likely in fundie church?)

 

5. Was a believer but is now off in the world doing their own thing. Haven't discarded their beliefs so much; more like ignoring them, keeping them on the back burner.

 

6. Part of the way to being an ex-Christian. Struggling with it, can't decide one way or the other. At an impasse.

 

7. Full-blown ex-Christian.

 

.............................................

 

So we have categories 1-7.

 

Attrition rates will vary according to the individual church and according to the denomination (AoG vs. Southern Baptists vs. Episcopalians). They will vary according to geographic region (let's say, western Oregon vs. central Alabama) and the educational levels of its members (youth all being sent off to college, vs. blue collar/farm town church).

 

Also, the proportions of the categories will vary from place to place. One place will have more ex-Christians over those who just casually lapsed into disbelief without any dramatic transition.

[R. S. Martin]

VC, I read your post. Sounds like your interests and my own coincide. As I describe below, I was unable to open the pdf article. I read the chapter from American Theocracy and copy a few quotes here:

 

• The world's leading economic and military power is also -- no one can misread the data -- the world's leading Bible-reading crusader state, immersed in an Old Testament of stern prophets and bloody Middle Eastern battlefields.
  

 

• the Republican coalition and administration of George W. Bush is heavily weighted toward the 30 to 40 percent of the electorate caught up in Scripture and the prospect of being suddenly transported to God's side. This is enough to push the United States toward what chapter 6 will posit as a national Disenlightenment.
  

 

• American religious tendencies...take on much greater importance now as Christian, Jewish, and Muslim holy lands occupy absolute center stage in world politics and as sites of military confrontation.
  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5290373

These quotes stood out for me because they show how fundamentalist religion impacts world politics.

 

Between 1776 and 1806 Methodist ranks in the United States increased by 2,500 percent -- from 4,900 adherents to 130,000 -- while Baptist membership ballooned from 35,000 in 1784 to 173,000 in 1810.25 By 1850 populist outreach had made Methodists the largest U.S denomination, with 2.7 million members, the Baptists placing second, with 1.6 million.26 Successful American Protestantism proselytized with an evangelical accent.

 

While this can sound overwhelming, one fact that the author omits to mention is the large influx of immigrants during this 40-year period. This increase was NOT all due to conversion efforts. See Mark A. Noll's History of Christianity in the United States and Canada. (Not listed in the article but I used it and know it exists.)

 

We can begin by describing the role of religion in American politics and war with two words: widely underestimated.

 

I am in full agreement! The few times I have talked with Christians about this I was told to my face that I was making a mistaken connection. I can shut my mouth to keep the peace with fellow citizens but I don't change my mind or strategy. My strategy is not to tear down the local churches but to get at the more basic psychological structure of fundamentalist religion. Before we take religion away we must give people something better in its place. This cannot be done with a bulldozer.

 

********************

 

I was unable to open the pdf article; every time it opened my browser told me "Internet Explorer encountered an error and must close." I looked up the term "Religious Economy Theory" in wikipedia in order to know what you're talking about in your post.

 

With regards to the larger question of your post, VC, I've been exploring these questions--or related ones--for years. I've done a few polls on here to explore various aspects of it, though possibly not on the scholarly level you would need for your work. Here are a few polls I did:

 

What Denomination Are You From?

New Thread for What Denominatio Are You From? (I forget what was going on there but here are the links for what they're worth; different breakdowns, maybe.)

What Are We Today?

A number of years ago as an upper-year undergrad student I did a bit of field work under the supervision of a religious studies professor who is also a sociologist. I wanted to learn about the experience of people leaving a visible minority religious group such as Amish or Mennonite for mainstream North American society. This addresses many of the same questions you are asking, though there is a difference. All of my subjects remained Christians. However, in my mind it's all part of the same process, and leaving the horse and buggy or very conservative car churches for mainstream society Christianity is only stopping short of "going all the way."

 

Edward Babinksi's Leaving the Fold was one of the books I read. Marlene Winnel's book by the same title looks at the psychology of leaving fundamentalist religion and may shed some light, though I'm not sure how much. I was interested in the experience, and for this reason a book on the psychology would have been helpful had I been able to find one.

 

VC, you may find help on John W. Loftus's blog Debunking Christianity. Babinski contributes regularly and you can probably contact him from there. John has also written books on apologetics or anti-apologetics or whatever one calls it when exChristians write books to refute Christian apologetics.

 

Also, feel free to contact me via pm if you want more info on what I did, or am doing.

[Vomit Comet]

Wow, thanks so much RSM! I'll write a big huge reply next I have time!

[R. S. Martin]

With regards to the Religious Economy Theory. I disagree that it's a religious buffet out there for people to just walk by and choose a church to their liking. Sure, on the facts sheet to outsiders who have never been religious it may appear that way. But when I read people's stories it comes across as a very deeply emotional seeking almost on the level of life or death urgency in many cases.

 

To get some idea of the difference between never-been-religious scholars and scholars who have "been there done that" you may want to consult Edmund D. Cohen's Mind of the Bible-Believer. Okay, that's not the focus of his book; he only refers to it in footnotes to account for differences between his opinion and that of others who have never been religious. His topic is mind control and he comes at it from the perspective of psychology. Good book. Heavy technical reading.

 

Because I got some of my best religious studies courses from a person who has never been religious I found it helpful to have Cohen highlight that this can make for a very different interpretation of the data.

[R. S. Martin]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... eeeeenteresting. Thanks very much, SNM! This is most definitely a "must read" for my lit review.

 

I think what I'm going after is a look at "attrition." Ex-Christians are the polar opposites of hardcore believers, but I suspect there are many degrees along the way. I want to see how it varies from context to context, not just in the rates of attritions but who leaves and why.

 

According to Amazon:

 

 

 

Amazing Conversions addresses the how and why of conversion to and away from religious faith.

 

 

 

It might not look at the who but it looks at the why.

 

I read the reviews. I understand it's from a psychological perspective, and that it is solid scientific research. I understand some readers were disappointed because they were looking for stories of people's lives. That is not what the book is about. The professor who supervised my project back in 2002 or whenever recommended the book.

 

So here's a rough continuum, in very, very rough ascending order:

 

1. Showed up not giving a shit, didn't give a shit while there, left without giving a shit.

 

2. Half-assed professed to believe, didn't amount to much, drifted away without too much thought.

 

3. Casually lapsed into disbelief or indifference without any personal drama involved. (More likely in liberal church? Does it ever happen this way?)

 

4. Was kind of on the fence for a time, considering it, teeter-tottering back and forth, and then decided against it. (Slightly more likely in fundie church?)

 

5. Was a believer but is now off in the world doing their own thing. Haven't discarded their beliefs so much; more like ignoring them, keeping them on the back burner.

 

6. Part of the way to being an ex-Christian. Struggling with it, can't decide one way or the other. At an impasse.

 

7. Full-blown ex-Christian.

 

.............................................

 

So we have categories 1-7.

 

Attrition rates will vary according to the individual church and according to the denomination (AoG vs. Southern Baptists vs. Episcopalians). They will vary according to geographic region (let's say, western Oregon vs. central Alabama) and the educational levels of its members (youth all being sent off to college, vs. blue collar/farm town church).

 

Also, the proportions of the categories will vary from place to place. One place will have more ex-Christians over those who just casually lapsed into disbelief without any dramatic transition.

 

Are you from an evangelical background? I ask because what you describe as the continuum does not apply to anything with which I can identify from my religious past. However, in light of what you mentioned about people showing up for youth activities, I think perhaps you are talking about a continuum of people coming to youth activities just for the fun of it but not having any interest in the religious end of things; these people would be at one end of the continuum. At the other end would be those who end up converting and then deconverting later in life. Am I getting the picture?

 

I think an excellent place to begin your search is with the Testimonies on these forums. Also the ExChristian Life section, but esp. the Testimonies. Keep your eyes pealed for where people come from--geographically as well as what denomination. Look for clues on all levels. Some people do not provide names of places or denominations but they do provide items and issues they dealt with that indicate the theology which normally goes with a certain denomination, or type of denomination. For example, a father dealing with issues of baptizing the baby very obviously is not from an Anabaptist background; the chances that he has RC background are huge. Possibly he is from a very conservative RC area.

 

As you get to know the "religious landscape" of 1) the USA, 2) North America, and 3) the world, (you are in the States, right?--I'd start with your home locality wherever you are), you will be able to tentatively locate people on the map by these clues. As you collect information your databank will grow larger and you will become more familiar with your subject matter. I'm sure you know all this. Am I beginning to sound like a bossy big sister or something. Sorry. I've had lots of practice--got ten younger sibs.

[Vomit Comet]

Hello again Ruby. I'll address a few of your comments for now.

 

Are you from an evangelical background? I ask because what you describe as the continuum does not apply to anything with which I can identify from my religious past. However, in light of what you mentioned about people showing up for youth activities, I think perhaps you are talking about a continuum of people coming to youth activities just for the fun of it but not having any interest in the religious end of things; these people would be at one end of the continuum. At the other end would be those who end up converting and then deconverting later in life. Am I getting the picture?

 

Yeah, I'm from an evangelical background. Pentecostal, in fact.

 

I reckon this would mainly apply to a comparative study between the usual fundie denoms (Assemblies of God on over to Southern Baptists) and the more liberal mainline denoms (Episcopalianism, Methodism, old-fashioned Midwestern Lutheranism, etc.). Special cases like the Amish or Mennonites probably wouldn't fit very well at all into this model. They're almost like seperate ethnic groups unto themselves, and their inward/isolationist tendencies is markedly different from, say, the Southern Baptists and their evangelistic and political ambitions.

 

With Catholics I reckon it depends. Catholicism itself has held the line over the centuries, whereas most Catholics (particularly in the West) seem to be more laid back and ambivalent about what they're supposed to believe and do.

 

Also, the ex-Christian label applies equally to those who deconverted after having been raised in it and those who deconverted after having converted from "the world" and gone through the whole rigoramole for a few long years.

 

I think an excellent place to begin your search is with the Testimonies on these forums. Also the ExChristian Life section, but esp. the Testimonies. Keep your eyes pealed for where people come from--geographically as well as what denomination. Look for clues on all levels. Some people do not provide names of places or denominations but they do provide items and issues they dealt with that indicate the theology which normally goes with a certain denomination, or type of denomination. For example, a father dealing with issues of baptizing the baby very obviously is not from an Anabaptist background; the chances that he has RC background are huge. Possibly he is from a very conservative RC area.

 

These forums would be useful for the opening preliminary stages where I try to hammer out my hypotheses. Research on internet communities is at this time incredibly sketchy. In our case, I really think that for every one American/Canadian that found their way here (after actively Googling the crap out of the internet looking for likeminded folks), there are thousands upon thousands of ex-Christians that have no inkling that this place exists. Therefore, it wouldn't be a representitive sample, unless I was limiting the scope to this particular community with its few dozen active members, as well as those anonymous folks that post testimonies but don't participate beyond that, along with any lurkers out there.

 

As you get to know the "religious landscape" of 1) the USA, 2) North America, and 3) the world, (you are in the States, right?--I'd start with your home locality wherever you are), you will be able to tentatively locate people on the map by these clues. As you collect information your databank will grow larger and you will become more familiar with your subject matter. I'm sure you know all this. Am I beginning to sound like a bossy big sister or something. Sorry. I've had lots of practice--got ten younger sibs.

 

Las Vegas is a bit too much of an anomaly. It would make a great case study but I don't think it would be of very much comparative value at all. I think I would compare two regions: Southern California (where I'm from) and maybe a patch of the Bible Belt. Southern California is interesting because although it's home to Los Angeles and all that, and most folks there are as irreligious as they are in all the other blue states, it is the land that gave us mega-churches and Pentecostalism. Maybe I would throw in the Pacific Northwest (the most atheistic part of the nation), or maybe New England (almost nothing but musty dusty oldline churches), or maybe the Upper Midwest (traditional Lutherans that keep to themselves "oh gee by golly dontcha know?" and maybe say grace over the holiday lutefisk).

[ShackledNoMore]

Altemeyer is best known for his research into what he calls "Right Wing Authoritarians" (RWAs). I first became familiar with him when I read an e-book he decided to make available free of charge called The Authoritarians. I found out about Amazing Conversions from the author himself--I think he's the closest to a famous person I've ever exchanged a couple of posts with!

 

Amazing Apostates are those who were raised in the top quartile of religious emphasis and then deconverted to the bottom quartile of religiosity--I think I can safely say everyone on this thread so far, as well as many members here.

 

If you want a quick, convenient, and free preview to some of his observations, chapter 4 of his e-book deals with Authoritarian Followers and Religious Fundamentalism.

 

I kind of wonder about the one star review--the accusations of the book/stories being "shallow" just doesn't seem to hold water to me. Granted, I would have like to see research involving an older demographic than college students, but there's not yet better information out there on this particular topic that I happen to be aware of. I've found Altemeyer to be well worth reading.

 

--------------------------------

 

I agree that there is a continuum when it comes to attrition. I also think it's a lot easier to have a dramatic deconversion if you come from one of the more extreme cults, like you, Ruby, and I did. I know I would have drifted into apostasy a lot more quietly, painlessly, and less noticeably if it wasn't something like AoG fundamentalism I was escaping. Of course, for some, religiosity increases over time. It's almost the norm for people to become more religious with age. I understand this in that I seem to empirically see that this happens alot, but it's hard to grasp my mind around, since my tolerance for entertaining bullshit and superstition has decreased with age.

[R. S. Martin]

VC, I'm not sure if you're interested in more of my thoughts or not. I wrote up this thing and then thought perhaps I should delete it. Then I was hit by the horror of "What if he really would have gotten value out of it?" Sometimes when I'm working on a project and another person gets too enthused with it I feel like they are trying to run the show for me. And that doesn't work because they don't know the rules I am operating under. Or my specific interests. I have a hunch I am entering that area here. I mention a few more books (not sure if they're relevant) in this post but mostly I'm just debating ideas....Now I made the titles of the books red so you can find them easily in case they are relevant.

 

Las Vegas is a bit too much of an anomaly. It would make a great case study but I don't think it would be of very much comparative value at all. I think I would compare two regions: Southern California (where I'm from) and maybe a patch of the Bible Belt. Southern California is interesting because although it's home to Los Angeles and all that, and most folks there are as irreligious as they are in all the other blue states, it is the land that gave us mega-churches and Pentecostalism. Maybe I would throw in the Pacific Northwest (the most atheistic part of the nation), or maybe New England (almost nothing but musty dusty oldline churches), or maybe the Upper Midwest (traditional Lutherans that keep to themselves "oh gee by golly dontcha know?" and maybe say grace over the holiday lutefisk).

 

So you are interested exclusively in American exChristians. I notice that you refer exclusively to American areas. If you read American Theocrasy you will be aware that Christianity in the US is diffferent from other parts of the world. This is supported in the literature other than this one book; I understand you haven't been studying sociology of religion. You mention the importance of context. Given that the religious context is different from which people deconvert, it logically follows that the exChristian will be different.

 

Regarding your statement about "thousands upon thousands" of exChristians in the US for every person on these forums....where do you anticipate getting stats? There are more than a thousand members on these forums. The number is on the front page. I think the general stat for number of believers in the Christian God in the US is at or above 80%. Then there's lots of other religions. Maybe that leaves hundreds of thousands of people to be exChristians--I wouldn't know how large a population you've got south of the border. Much less do I know what is meant by blue and red states. We've got provinces up here and our grass is green.

 

I'd look at organizations like American Atheists or Freedom from Religion Foundation (on my website linked from my sig) if I wanted to begin finding stats but you might know better sources.

 

Research on internet communities is at this time incredibly sketchy.

 

Are you aware of Lorne L. Dawson's work? Here's his book Religion Online: Finding Faith on the Internet, co-authored with Douglas E. Cowan from the States. Cowan also wrote Cyberhenge:Modern Paganism on the World Wide Web (Routledge, 2004). Yeah, that's not a lot. Is that all there is so far? BTW, Dawson was the prof who supervised my little project.

 

I don't really understand what you want to do. I see internet communities as starting places, from which to expand. That is how I found direction for my education and I am greatly pleased with the results. Might not work for anyone else. However, it was in online forums that I became aware that the kind of uncompromising religion practiced by the Amish and Mennonites was also practiced by a much wider population in North America. Culturally, they are a separate group, but when it comes to the ethos of religious attitude I see no difference.

 

The word fundamentalist came to my mind. I researched church websites. Read their "what we believe" pages. Came to see a pattern in their beliefs. One thing led to another. I learned about some of today's televangelists and megachurch preachers. A classmate gave me the name of Willow Creek Church but mostly I was on my own to find courses, books, etc. Somehow I came across Randall Balmer. Watched his video series and read his book, all by the title Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory. From there I went to Marsden, Noll, Sandeen, etc. Also read a few Dallas scholars to get it "straight from the horse's mouth" re dispensationalism.

 

The Dallas people I read were good scholars academically though I would proceed with caution. But, were it not for online communities, I would not have known that this kind of religion was the same as what I had come out of. Had I not learned via online communities where the forum members lived I would not have known in what part of the world it was, either. It's in Australia, in the UK, in various parts of Canada. I understand each has its own special flavour. Part of my fascination with exC is learning what this special flavour is.

 

You might be wise to ignore this stuff. That way we can each do our own projects. I just love talking about it. Don't get too much opportunity. I can't think of too much more literature to recommend.