Mike D Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I know this topic has probably been beaten to death here over the years, but today I saw something on TV that got me thinking more about the whole concept of a "soul". Altough I personally don't believe in a soul, that's probably because I don't typically believe in things that really have no clear definition, much less any evidence to support their existence. Anyway, the show I was watching basically documented the head transplant of a monkey. In short, a monkey's head was detatched (decapitated) from it's own body and then reattached to the body of another headless monkey. The experiment was considered a success, as the re-attached head of the monkey gained full consciousness with it's new host and was able to smell, taste, hear and see just as it did before. The obvious drawback to the experiment was that the resulting nerve damage left the monkey paralyzed from the neck down, and unable to control the new body. The experiment was performed by Dr. Robert J. White in 1963 and again in 2001. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_transplant The reason this started me thinking about souls, is that a successful head transplant supports the idea that consciousness and everything we think feel and decide resides in the brain, not in some vague, ambiguous entity called the soul. If this is not true, then what exactly is the soul and where is it? Is it in the heart? If so then what happens to people that have heart transplants, either from a human donor or mechanical heart? What happens to the soul encapsulated within the body (assuming it even is) of human patients in the case of a theoretical head or brain transplant? For anyone who believes that such a thing called the soul, how do you answer those questions? And what is the evidence to support your belief in souls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Well, that sounds like a damned cruel pointless experiment. Lots of who we are is based on our memories (a function of mind) and the collective energies of various mind functions, both conscious and subconscious, very likely give us the "us", or "who we are". Torturing a monkey to me seems fruitless, it would prove nothing. Think of it this way, it was not a "head" transplant, it was a "body" transplant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOkkata Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I can't imagine how they managed to do this without killing the brain. I suppose in the end it would depend on how much trauma the brain went through. How long without oxygen would probably be the most important factor, and how much damage the brain went through. The monkey may now be a severely retarded monkey. Which would make not being able to move a little less of a drag I imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 The monkey may now be a severely retarded monkey. Which would make not being able to move a little less of a drag I imagine. I guess that would be a plus for the monkey, too bad he can't sue for mal-practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I can't imagine how they managed to do this without killing the brain.... The monkey may now be a severely retarded monkey. So you're saying the monkey may have been forcibly converted to fundiegelical xianity? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 For anyone who believes that such a thing called the soul, how do you answer those questions? And what is the evidence to support your belief in souls? The soul is the sum of the parts, just like a company is a sum of the people who work in it, and the equipment, building, things it has, and the services and tasks it performs. It doesn't exist without the parts, but there's not one single part that contains the whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Well, that sounds like a damned cruel pointless experiment. Oh no, just think of the possibilities. If you wanted a sex change you could just trade bodies with a person of the opposite sex that wanted a sex change to your sex. Rich guys could get a trophy body to along with their trophy wives. Maimed soldiers could get the unmaimed bodies of draft dodgers, while the dodgers would get the maimed body they sought to avoid. It would be a brave new world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 29, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted April 29, 2008 I tend to agree with many who say that everything we perceive or imagine is due to the electrical and chemical action of our brain tissue. If that tissue completely ceases to function due to death, then what do we perceive with? Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 Maimed soldiers could get the unmaimed bodies of draft dodgers, while the dodgers would get the maimed body they sought to avoid. It would be a brave new world. That's a very 'Starship Troopers' view there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 Maimed soldiers could get the unmaimed bodies of draft dodgers, while the dodgers would get the maimed body they sought to avoid. It would be a brave new world. That's a very 'Starship Troopers' view there... Ha, seems like everyone I knew hated that movie, I actually thought it was pretty good. Had a very Orwellian view of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kei Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 For anyone who believes that such a thing called the soul, how do you answer those questions? And what is the evidence to support your belief in souls? first off, isn't that animal cruelty or something? and secondly, the soul isn't physical like a heart or a brain or a colon or whatever. i tend to think of it like an aura, if that makes any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 Head transplant!?!?!?! I thought I was all for scientific progress but...if my head was sewn onto your body but it be a you-me or a me-you? Where does identity theft play into the situation? Or would they do it only when, for example, a young person dies in the prime of life but no head injuries so they take the head and sew it onto a person in need of a new head? So I'm imagining a Hell's Angel Biker getting killed in a biking accident but his head is in perfect condition. And an evangelical Christian dying of a brain tumor waiting for a head donation. The blood types and all are perfect matches. All except the beliefs. For the sake of the argument, let's say the head transplant is done and is successful, who is the new person going to be? Will he now be Hell's Angel Biker? Obviously, he will no longer have his own face; he will look like the Biker. And if new heads on dogs don't know better than to bite their recipient, well, the complications look almost insurmountable--for example, would the new head know enough to take care of its newly attached body? UGH! this is enough to cause nightmares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 For anyone who believes that such a thing called the soul, how do you answer those questions? And what is the evidence to support your belief in souls? first off, isn't that animal cruelty or something? and secondly, the soul isn't physical like a heart or a brain or a colon or whatever. i tend to think of it like an aura, if that makes any sense. Non localised endogenous field is the 'All the Vowels YOU Can Eat Buffet' phrase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 If that tissue completely ceases to function due to death, then what do we perceive with? Nothing. Good question. I wonder if the fabric of space/time in relation to consciousness holds the answer that one day science will discover. I do think there is a continuation after death. Can't prove it scientifically. Unfortuntately it does not seem to be reproducable in laboratory experiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 I tend to agree with many who say that everything we perceive or imagine is due to the electrical and chemical action of our brain tissue. If that tissue completely ceases to function due to death, then what do we perceive with? Nothing. I'm in Chris' camp on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 I tend to agree with many who say that everything we perceive or imagine is due to the electrical and chemical action of our brain tissue. If that tissue completely ceases to function due to death, then what do we perceive with? Nothing. I'm in Chris' camp on this one. Par - thanks for being so polite and restrained Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 first off, isn't that animal cruelty or something? No, I think first off was the head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 For anyone who believes that such a thing called the soul, how do you answer those questions? And what is the evidence to support your belief in souls? The soul is the sum of the parts, just like a company is a sum of the people who work in it, and the equipment, building, things it has, and the services and tasks it performs. It doesn't exist without the parts, but there's not one single part that contains the whole. I kind of groove with this a little bit Hans. If the soul exists then in my opinion it may have something to do with how everything about a person manages to function together and form a unity. And if I am experiencing some deep inner conflict then I may say that my soul is being torn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 I kind of groove with this a little bit Hans. If the soul exists then in my opinion it may have something to do with how everything about a person manages to function together and form a unity. And if I am experiencing some deep inner conflict then I may say that my soul is being torn. Another example is how a city exists. I went to New York. I saw the buildings, like Empire State Building and the Status of Liberty. I saw the people, and I saw the cars. I heard noise and chatter, and ate at the restaurants... but I never saw New York. This is an example of "see no forest for all trees" kind of problem. New York isn't a thing, but is the parts all together. And we can say this city "never sleeps" and we mean it on a more meta-physical level. The city does exist, but it isn't a "thing" like it's parts, but still it exists somehow because of the process, flow, life, energy, events and all matter the moves around or is static... it becomes a city every second, because of the nature of what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 I figure most of it is in the configuration of our cerebral cortex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 New York isn't a thing, but is the parts all together. ... it becomes a city every second, because of the nature of what it is. Yeah, I think I may see your point. I don't know. It's as if the soul has something to do with organization. And a city is perpetually coming into being by virtue of its 'soul'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 ... So I'm imagining a Hell's Angel Biker getting killed in a biking accident but his head is in perfect condition. And an evangelical Christian dying of a brain tumor waiting for a head donation. The blood types and all are perfect matches. All except the beliefs. For the sake of the argument, let's say the head transplant is done and is successful, who is the new person going to be? Will he now be Hell's Angel Biker? Obviously, he will no longer have his own face; he will look like the Biker. ... What if the biker died from head injuries but the rest of the body is OK so it gets attached to the head of the evangelical who was suffering from some kind of cancer or something? The biker, if he lived up to his Hell's Angel reputation, probably wasn't too particular about where he stuck his penis. So, is the newly reformulated evangelical guilty of his new body's past sexual "immorality"? And, if so, will the sin all go away if he tithes an extra 10 percent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 29, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted April 29, 2008 We can only discuss, imagine, and make conclusions because of our neural activity. Should that activity cease, we could no longer think about the concept of a soul or anything else. I would like as much as anyone to continue being conscious after my death, but I can't see how it would be possible unless I ignore what my living brain has perceived to be fact. I'm just not wired for blind faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 ... So I'm imagining a Hell's Angel Biker getting killed in a biking accident but his head is in perfect condition. And an evangelical Christian dying of a brain tumor waiting for a head donation. The blood types and all are perfect matches. All except the beliefs. For the sake of the argument, let's say the head transplant is done and is successful, who is the new person going to be? Will he now be Hell's Angel Biker? Obviously, he will no longer have his own face; he will look like the Biker. ... What if the biker died from head injuries but the rest of the body is OK so it gets attached to the head of the evangelical who was suffering from some kind of cancer or something? The biker, if he lived up to his Hell's Angel reputation, probably wasn't too particular about where he stuck his penis. So, is the newly reformulated evangelical guilty of his new body's past sexual "immorality"? And, if so, will the sin all go away if he tithes an extra 10 percent? Waste of a perfectly good biker body if you ask me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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