Need Some Help

[jdog]

I left xianity a couple of weeks ago, after being one for several years. I left because I began to feel again that there was something not right, so I asked questions especially about where sin came from and the whole fall of man and so many other aspects of xianity I just no longer had peace over.

 

I suppose I have the need to define who I am by what I believe in, like I need to give myself a label, such as deist, agnostic etc....? It's just that I feel a bit lost, I feel I need to fit in somewhere.

 

I am comparing the 'wanting to know' to someone who is sick, and they have lots of medical tests done and the doctors can't seem to find what is wrong, and the patient just wants to know what it is, so they can give it a name, and when finally they have been given a diagnosis, a name for the illness, they are relieved despite how good or bad the news is, because then at least they can address the problem and begin to treat it.

 

I don't think I am an atheist, so I can eliminate that one. There is still that need in me to believe in something that is greater than myself. I suppose I still am carrying that 'It would be prideful and selfish of me' to think otherwise. Even though at the moment no god, no religion would be simpler for me.

 

Since coming to this website, I notice that it is important to reason, to be a thinker. So am I right in thinking it is important to give reasons why I believe or disbelieve in something that I can't just say it's a 'gut' feeling, that there has to be a root to that feeling.

 

So if I say that I believe that there may be a god, I would have to give my reason why? I actually want to give a reason, I would like to be able to give answers if I was questioned or asked, especially by a xtian. So how do I go about this? What kind of questions ought I be asking myself? I have been thinking as a xtian for such a long time that I am still going through the process of eliminating the rigidity of the xtian teaching.

 

I am also still figuring out the definitions of the 'isms' is it possible to be a combination of more than one, or does it have to be definitive one or the other?

 

Thanks.

[florduh]

Hey, jdog!

 

No need to label yourself. You don't have to call yourself an atheist, agnostic, deist, or anything else. It takes time to sort out your thinking after de-converting from a cult.

 

I would like to think that somehow we survive physical death, and perhaps that some benevolent deity watches over us in troubled times, but I see no evidence supporting those ideas, and plenty of evidence against them. I can't make a leap of faith to believe something I wish were true if nothing exists to indicate that it is true. Others seem able to make that leap, but it is not in my makeup.

 

If you can't be comfortable without some unsubstantiated supernatural belief, you will find a way to justify that belief. Often, if it just "feels right" that is enough. That's how we operate here on this planet.

 

I think it is more honest and productive if you begin your rational education without the presupposition that there MUST be a god or a spiritual realm. Make no assumptions, read, study and think rationally, and eventually you will reach a comfortable place.

 

All the best,

 

- Chris

[Vigile]

So am I right in thinking it is important to give reasons why I believe or disbelieve in something that I can't just say it's a 'gut' feeling, that there has to be a root to that feeling.

 

It might help if you turn the question around a little bit. Rather than having to know exactly why you disbelieve, just take the position that you are just not willing to believe claims without convincing proof. If the proof offered you so far doesn't seem right to you, that should be enough for now. It takes time and it really just depends on your personality and how much time and study you want to spend on this particular subject. There is no right or wrong answer to that question.

 

Really, though if someone can't offer you a very strong reason for believing in something then you are not the one that has to defend your refusal to go along with their ideas. Those that make the bold claims are the ones with the burdon of proof, not you.

[Deva]

Hi Jdog,

 

I really feel for you because I have been struggling with the issue of "where do I belong" for over 15 years. Having been raised fundamentalist Baptist, I am convinced it has hardwired something into my brain that there is "somthing bigger out there" and some "absolute truth" I can find if I just keep at it. I can intellectualize all I please and can't get away from it.

 

Recently I have taken up a study of Buddhism and advaita vedanta Hinduism. I thought I was totally free of the Christian programming. I never was an atheist (well for a short time). I thought that just because Christianity is false that didn't automatically mean there was no truth in other philosophies or religions. I say I don't believe in god but that just means not as defined by western religion.

 

I did ok just reading about other religions, viewing tapes, etc. I redefined myself as a student of Krishnamurti at one time. Now that I have left that behind, I again feel adrift. When I participated in a formal Buddhist chanting session at a local Buddhist center recently, my mind just really went haywire. I felt in some deep way disloyal. Maybe it was seeing all the folks there bowing to the altar with the statute of the Buddha. This is quite disturbing because I have had a long battle leaving Chrisitanity and I thought I had left all that Christian stuff long behind me. But seeing the ceremony of another religion and participating in it triggered memories of my confirmation and my baptism and then all that "disloyalty" stuff came up.

 

So I am giving it a rest for right now. I may participate in some of the discussion group meetings of the Buddhist center, but no formal chanting ceremonies for right now.

 

I think you just have to tune in to what is right for you now, at the moment. I don't see the need for a complete identification with another philosophy or religion, although part of me still thinks that would be a great thing if I could do it.

 

Anyway, I am determined to not let my own mental confusion deter me from exploring other paths and what seems right to me. I think the need to give oneself a label and a reason is part of the Christian conditioning. All we can do is see it as that and move on despite these mental obstacles.

 

Best wishes to you.

[Guest LoveAll]

Greetings,

First of all, congratulations on the move out of make-believe & into the real world. And in the real world, there are no simple answers, no black & white, right & wrong ways of thinking. I can only share with you what I have discovered; that honesty, open-mindedness & curiousity are three essential elements of any life worth living. When you don't know, say; "I don't know." Christians (and many other theistic religions) claim to have true answers, where they actually ony have opinions, beliefs.

The authentic spiritual journey is seldom, if ever, easy. If you want to know what is true, what is real, what is worthwhile believing & doing, you will have to roll-up your sleeves and go to work finding out.

As someone who has practiced in the Zen Buddhist tradition for many years, I can tell you what a famous atheist (Buddha) once said. And you do not have to be a Buddhist, or a member of any other religion or spiritual tradition, to see the value in his words.

It is a famous Buddhist Sutra called: "The Kallama Sutra." ("Sutra" means scripture, teaching, words of Buddha)

This a short summation & paraphrase, but it gets to the gist of the Sutra.

 

The Buddha once was in the town of Kallama when he was approached by elders from a temple of a certain religious teaching.

They were puzzeled & vexed about several different religious traditions, all located in various parts of the town. The Elders said to the Buddha, that each one of the religions (or different sects of the same religion) claimed exclusive truth, they alone were right!

The Elders said that when they went to each one individually, they would give good arguements for their case. Yet, when they went to the next temple, the same thing would happen there! Everybody seemed to be right, yet they contradicted each other & would say things something like this: "Oh yes, those fellows at that other Temple mean well, but they have it all wrong, you must do things OUR WAY for true salvation, true enlightenment."

They asked the Buddha; how do we know who is telling the truth & who is wrong?

The Buddha's response is a famous part of Buddhist Teachings and one of the reasons so many intelligent independent people have been attracted to Buddhism.

The Buddha laid out a 10-point answer, all of which I am not going to write out here, (if interested ,Google the Kallama Sutra.) But the main one was this: Do not accept the words of others as proof, or the words of so-called Holy Scriptures. If you want to know if a spiritual teaching is true, then you must test it as merchants test gold received in payment. (In those days, when merchants received gold coins in payment for goods, they would put the coin in their mouth & bite on it, real gold had a softer texture than other metals.)

In other words, you must test each Teaching in the laboratory of your own life. Does the Teaching lead to positive, wholesome results, does it make your life better? Does it make you a kinder, wiser, freer person? If it does, then it is a true, good Teaching. Or, does it bind you up in fear & uncertainty, causing you to be judgemental of others? Does it tell you must rely on books & oral Tradition, with no way to prove it for yourself? If it does that, it is a false Teaching and bad Teaching.

The Buddha used to tell people, that they should not even believe His own words, but to test them for themselves to see if they are true. Otherwise, he used to say, they will be of no real value to you. For Teachings to be worthwhile, you must discover their truth for yourself.

Anyway, I have no interest in promoting "Buddhism." I simply encourage you to consider this and to not take anbodys words as Truth, incuding my own, until you have done some research on your own.

I admire you for having the courage to leave the Church, I wonder how many Christians (and others) would like to leave their religion but feel they are trapped or it's just too late?

Best of luck to you.

[Rev R]

I recommend being a jdog-ist.

[BlueGiant]

You left two weeks ago? How long were you in, and for that matter how long were you in deep? Sorting out the fallout from deconversion is one of those things that takes time. Potentially a lot, but that is okay. It is okay to be in a state where you don't know, even better if you acknowledge that you don't know.

 

As far as the gut feeling that there is something bigger out there, that, in a way, can be referred to as Unsubstantiated Personal Gnosis (UPG), i.e. something that you know, but do not have proof for (yet). Those feelings should not be discounted when determining what *you* believe. At the same time, trying to convince someone of something based solely on your UPG is a fools errand.

 

As far as mixing "isims" go ahead. It is possible to use other systems to form something that works for you specifically.

[Skiergirl24]

Hey there and welcome! I agree with the others...no need for labels. Like you, I cannot say I am an atheist. But I don't really know where I lie on the spectrum. I think there *may* be a higher power, but I do not believe in a "personal" God. My views on religion align with those of Einstein (cuz he and I are real tight). I am being facetious

[jdog]

I recommend being a jdog-ist.

 

That's funny, j-dog is actually my dog, I was so mixed up when I came to this site, I couldn't even think of a name for myself, so I chose my dog's nick name. So I suppose if I were a jdogist, I would be a firm believer and follower of my dog. At least she is right there in front of me, it doesn't require any kind of faith to believe that she exists, And she has taught me some lessons over the years, such as not to leave my food on the coffee table and not to expect to keep my white shirt clean for more than five minutes. Such wisdom I have gained.

 

 

Thanks all for everyone's input so far. I suppose I need to just relax and breathe.

 

 

Blue Giant, to answer your question. How long was I in, and how long was I deep? I am now 43 years old. I did the Sunday school thing as a child, and did church on and off over the years. In 1997 I started attending church that taught the whole 'born again' 'saved' type of teaching, so I got 'saved' but it was in 2004 when I got really serious about things because I still hadn't been 'living for the Lord' and I was riddled with guilt and I believed I needed to get right again with bible god and jesus.

 

So that is when I surrendered all, got baptised and chased after bible god, jesus and all what goes with the religion. But I suppose doing that, has lead me to where I am now, and I see xianity for what it truly is. A big lie.

[Vomit Comet]

I suspect that there may be some "entities" out there, but I don't want to know about them or encounter them. My experience with Christianity was with that fucked-up freaky scary Pentecostal spiritual warfare where there were demons behind every rock. Try as I might, I can't convince myself that what I and others saw, heard, and experienced had no basis in reality. It's pretty creepy, actually. But that's another thread for another time.

[Emme]

I can relate to what you are feeling. After my deconversion I really wanted a label too, or rather, to belong somewhere. i think it its very natural to feel that way, since you have identified yourself with something for so long, and now it's all different, it's a lonely feeling. I think stopping and breathing is a great idea.