Why won't God, Jesus, Mary, SOMEONE appear?

[ExRC]

You hear about visions, apparations, etc. all the time. If that's all it would take to convince non-believers, why does God not appear and convince us? Being all powerful and all...it shouldn't be that much of an inconvenience...right?

[Vigile]

You hear about visions, apparations, etc. all the time. If that's all it would take to convince non-believers, why does God not appear and convince us? Being all powerful and all...it shouldn't be that much of an inconvenience...right?

 

 

But Mary did appear on Aeqinos' window. You had to be quick though since he already removed it. We just were not worthy:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=2391&hl=

[Mythra]

I came really close to falling down on my knees in repentence when I saw the holy apparition of Mary there in the window. But then I realized that I couldn't be my own god anymore if I went back, and I recanted my repentence.

 

Whew. That was a close one.

[cerebralchristian]

You hear about visions, apparations, etc. all the time. If that's all it would take to convince non-believers, why does God not appear and convince us? Being all powerful and all...it shouldn't be that much of an inconvenience...right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Good question. I have often pondered this.

 

What I have noticed is that God's dramatic displays seem to rare in this age. However, smaller supernatural events seem to be common, in my experience.

 

In times when I have really struggled spiritually, I would have liked a dramatic response to my prayers of doubt. I can't recall a time that God complied. But I have been blown away at times when I wasn't expecting anything by supernatural demonstrations that strengthened mytrust in him.

 

I had really hard time when Oscar, my beloved 19 year-old black cat, died. I wanted a sign from God that Oscar was all right in the spirit realm. And I wanted it right then.

 

Not that this rates high on the drmamatic scale-- I'll save those stories for another time-- but a year later I weas sitting at my lakeside campsite, weeping over Oscar. I cried out to God-- "Why can't I get over this loss? What am I going to do with all this pain?"

 

Just then, my son yelled to me from beside our car-- "Mom- look-- a cat!" A gray tabby had wandered into our campsite and immidiately attached herself to me. She followed me everywhere I went that day. During the night, she tried to get into our tent, pawing at just the section of the tent where my head was resting inside. We took her home with us with permission from the campsite manager, against all our better judgment and our longtime rule of no new cats.

 

This cat has been the greatest comfort to me-- I still miss Oscar, but there has now been a healing of that deep wound. Could it be a coincidence? Sure. I realize it might be indeed be coincidence.

 

Could this new cat be Oscar reincarnated? Um. . .I don't think so. I don't think that's they way things work. But hey-- if it turns out that God wanted to do things that way, who am I to say it can't be?

 

Could there be a connection between my cry to God at that time and the cat's arrival? Sure. I believe so. Can't prove it, though.

 

Why did I not receive comfort when I first wanted it? I don't know.

 

But that doesn't cause me to feel that God is sadistic or uncaring . Or non-existent.

 

CC

[ExRC]

I am deeply sorry for your loss CC. I have lost pets as well, and I can relate.

 

But, as with most questions along this line, I can never get a straight response from Christians.

 

I have experienced nothing that would lead me to believe that there is a God. He could cure this problem right now if he wanted to, but well....

[cerebralchristian]

I am deeply sorry for your loss CC. I have lost pets as well, and I can relate.

 

CC: Thank you

 

ExRC: But, as with most questions along this line, I can never get a straight response from Christians.

 

CC: I don't tend to give straight responses, or so people tell me. <grin>  I was just reflecting on the question, admitting that I have struggled with the same thing, and sharing a bit of how I personally have dealt with it.  Just being real with you.

 

ExRC:I have experienced nothing that would lead me to believe that there is a God. He could cure this problem right now if he wanted to, but well....

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CC: When I have thought about this issue, I have pondered four possibilities--

 

--He does not exist

--He is uncaring

--He cares, but he is trying to teach me something

--His ways are not always comprehensible to me, so I won't be able to figure it out at this time

 

I think it's normal for even the most devout Christian to ponder even the first two of these possibilities.

 

This still does not directly answer what you asked, but again-- I am just sharing from my experience, not really answering a question in the definite, concrete way I would on an exam.

 

One more thought-- I often think about the time my son decided we had all left him at church because he couldn't find us after Sunday School. I would rather that he had trusted that we would never leave him deliberately or even inadvertently since he is unforgettable. I would rather he had entertained and maybe accepted other possibilities for our delay.

 

This analogy isn't meant to work on all levels-- it's just a thought I had.

 

It is a good thing, I think, to consider all possibilities and re-evaluate from time to time. For Non-Christians and Christians alike.

 

CC

[Mythra]

CC: When I have thought about this issue, I have pondered four possibilities--

A.  He does not exist

B.  He is uncaring

C.  He cares, but he is trying to teach me something

D.  His ways are not always comprehensible to me, so I won't be able to figure it out at this time

CC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

After being confident that I have thoroughly explored and exhausted options B,C, and D; I am comfortable with option A.

[cerebralchristian]

I truly, with all my heart do not mean to demean you and I'm sorry for that.  I'm glad that you have a cat and that your loss has been easier, I truly am. 

 

CC: Thank you-- the grief was raw for so long, but now it's more muted and bittersweet.  I guess that's part of the risk of loving another living thing.

 

Thankful:

However, CC, that is so very insignificant.  Look at the news lately, two children were sought out, their family bludgeoned to death and they were raped REPEATEDLY from the time of their capture and the brother was killed.  Another child, raped REPEATEDLY and buried ALIVE.  Where was god?  See to me, your cat coincidence is not a miracle, in the big, overall picture, it was a coincidence. 

 

CC: Not a miracle, I agree. I suspect it was a more of a response in due time.  And I do see what you mean about the daily horrors of life on Earth.  It is indeed awful.

 

Thankful:

Please, stop making excuses for god.  Biblegod's promises are never kept, they can't be excused away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

CC: But I don't blame him. He didn't "do" those things. Human beings did them. In the case of Tsunami last winter, nature did it. I do think God *allowed* those things, but then, I don't believe he interferes with nature much, nor do I believe he thwarts freewill.

 

As for justice-- I believe it will be meted out at a later time. A cop out? Many people think so, but I do not. I suppose I fall in line with here with the typical Christian response that you get so sick of reading.

 

Anyway-- I do think you make a valid point. It is a stumbling block for so many people. I have a good friend who just can't get past God allowing the Tsunami.

 

I think that God both allows events *and* empathizes with those who suffer. I think that human evil grieves him.

 

To be candid-- that doesn't mean I don't still ask the same questions at times, especially with that poor little girl who was buried alive.

 

 

Here's a question I've been wanting to ask--

 

Do these atrocities cause you to feel that God is sadistic pervert or that God is not real? Or both?

 

CC

[Vixentrox]

As for justice-- I believe it will be meted out at a later time.  A cop out? Many people think so, but I do not.  I suppose I fall in line with here with the typical Christian response that you get so sick of reading.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

SS Camp Comander about to die: I'm sorry for my crimes Jesus, please forgive me.

 

>>>>>SS Camp Commander executed>>>>>>>soul arrives in heaven to celebrate for all eternity with Jesus

 

Flashback a couple years....

 

1000 decent people sent to gas chamber, praying thier Jewish prayers

 

>>>>>>>1000 decent people roasting in hell forever for not accepting Jesus>>>>>>

 

Yeah, that's your god's justice.

[Checkmate]

Why do Xians constantly seek IMAGES of Biblegod/Jesus/Mary, when the bible gives absolutely NO description of what ANY of them look like?

 

How in the name of Satan can anyone know what these fictional creatures look like? And WHY do they bow down to these "images"?

 

"Oh, look! A water stain in a Chicago underpass! MUST be the Virgin Mary! Let's worship it!"

 

 

"Oooh, look! A foggy mist has formed on my steamy window! If I look hard enough it LOOKS like Jesus! Let's worship it!"

 

 

"Oooh, look! A cloud formation that looks like a cross! God must be trying to tell us something! Quick someone make up an interpretation!"

 

 

 

What the fuck?

 

Yeah. I'll be believing religious idiots and their "visions" just as SOON as I get back from my visit to Santa's workshop. I saw a vision of Rudolph in my soap dish, so I think I'm on to something.

[Ouroboros]

CC: When I have thought about this issue, I have pondered four possibilities--

 

--He does not exist

--He is uncaring

--He cares, but he is trying to teach me something

--His ways are not always comprehensible to me, so I won't be able to figure it out at this time

 

(Playing Gods advocate here)

 

There is one more option too:

 

-- He is not omnipotent, by choice or by design

 

He maybe isn't in control, or he can't control matter without destroying the structure of the universe.

 

(basically Deism)

[Mythra]

This is a huge indictment and argument that there is no god.

 

The bible says that God doesn't want anyone to perish.

 

Then, he provides a dubious, contradictory book for people to try and find him.

 

Promises to answer "whatever you ask in my name", then doesn't.

 

Provides not a single tangible evidence for himself. ( I don't buy the - "just look at His creation" shpiel) I mean - if God really didn't want anyone to perish, why not show up at half-time during the Superbowl. It worked for Janet Jackson. Got all kinds of attention.

 

But, then God eternally damns those who cannot buy off on it.

 

Gets kind of tiring saying it, but - ABSURD.

[TruthWarrior]

But he did appear and there's pictures to prove it!

 

About 6,000 worshippers at Muslim Village, Kawangware, Nairobi, believe they saw Jesus Christ, in broad daylight last week.

The scene was at the Church of Bethlehem, where Mary Sinaida Akatsa conducts miracle prayers, praying for the sick, the blind, cripples, mad people, and the barren.

Worshippers were singing Mungu ni Mwema, a popular Swahili hymn, when Mary Akatsa interjected. She announced that God had spoken to her and told her to "await a miracle because a very important guest would be coming to give her a very vital message."

Five minutes later, she asked those who were singing to stop as the messenger had arrived. "Jesus! Jesus! Jesus of Nazareth!" went the loud whispers from the crowd as they raised up their hands in divine welcome.

 

The tall figure of a barefooted white-robed and bearded man appeared from nowhere and stood in the middle of the crowd. He was walking slowly towards the new church building away from the tent. Mary walked with him, side by side. I stared at the stranger without blinking. Strange, sporadic light wafted on top of his turbaned head, his feet and his entire body.

 

In clear Swahili, which had no traces of accent, the strange man announced that the people of Kenya were blessed, especially those who had gathered at the venue that afternoon.

 

"We are nearing the time for the reign of heaven. But before that I shall come back and bring a bucketful of blessings for all of you," the man said.

 

It took the crowd nearly 20 minutes to recover after the man left the meeting in a car belonging to a Mr Gurnam Singh, who offered to give him a lift. But it will probably take Mr Singh his lifetime to recover from the shock he got two minutes later. On reaching the bus terminus, the man informed Mr Singh to stop the car. On getting out, he walked a few paces beside the road and simply vanished into thin air.

 

 

It's like suprising little kids with a visit from Santa Claus.

 

Also check out the magical mystical appearance of Maitreya's Hand.

[BlueGiant]

Your version of god is more in the category of "I don't give a rip," also known as God-The-Utterly-Indifferent (read Siren's of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut to get this reference). I don't get angry at cancer when it has killed a friend of mine (or three), I don't get angry at gravity when it throws me down to the ground. There is no reason to, it is just doing what it does. Now I may be angry at those sentient things that caused whatever to hapen (such as the guy who tripped me, or the company that illegally dumped carcinogens).

 

I've seen way too much pain, suffering, and death (needless and otehrwise) around me to feel that any god gives a shit, really.

[ExRC]

"Oh, look!  A water stain in a Chicago underpass!  MUST be the Virgin Mary!  Let's worship it!"

"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought it looked like a giant vagina.

 

Maybe my mind is elsewhere!

[Vixentrox]

Maybe god raped it too?

[BlueGiant]

I remember the reports about that. Hmm, holy poontang... Well that fish they use probably stands for something.

 

*prepares to get smacked*

[Isak The Newt]

About 6,000 worshippers at Muslim Village, Kawangware, Nairobi, believe they saw Jesus Christ, in broad daylight last week.

The scene was at the Church of Bethlehem, where Mary Sinaida Akatsa conducts miracle prayers, praying for the sick, the blind, cripples, mad people, and the barren.

Worshippers were singing Mungu ni Mwema, a popular Swahili hymn, when Mary Akatsa interjected. She announced that God had spoken to her and told her to "await a miracle because a very important guest would be coming to give her a very vital message."

Five minutes later, she asked those who were singing to stop as the messenger had arrived. "Jesus! Jesus! Jesus of Nazareth!" went the loud whispers from the crowd as they raised up their hands in divine welcome.

 

The tall figure of a barefooted white-robed and bearded man appeared from nowhere and stood in the middle of the crowd. He was walking slowly towards the new church building away from the tent. Mary walked with him, side by side. I stared at the stranger without blinking. Strange, sporadic light wafted on top of his turbaned head, his feet and his entire body.

 

In clear Swahili, which had no traces of accent, the strange man announced that the people of Kenya were blessed, especially those who had gathered at the venue that afternoon.

 

"We are nearing the time for the reign of heaven. But before that I shall come back and bring a bucketful of blessings for all of you," the man said.

 

It took the crowd nearly 20 minutes to recover after the man left the meeting in a car belonging to a Mr Gurnam Singh, who offered to give him a lift. But it will probably take Mr Singh his lifetime to recover from the shock he got two minutes later. On reaching the bus terminus, the man informed Mr Singh to stop the car. On getting out, he walked a few paces beside the road and simply vanished into thin air.

lets review shall we?

 

-"About 6,000 worshippers at Muslim Village, Kawangware, Nairobi, believe they saw Jesus Christ, in broad daylight last week.

The scene was at the Church of Bethlehem, where Mary Sinaida Akatsa conducts miracle prayers, praying for the sick, the blind, cripples, mad people, and the barren." Note: it says they 'believe' they saw

 

-"Strange, sporadic light wafted on top of his turbaned head, his feet and his entire body." could be the light from the sun

 

-"The tall figure of a barefooted white-robed and bearded man appeared from nowhere and stood in the middle of the crowd. He was walking slowly towards the new church building away from the tent. " jesus? look at teh pictures...??

 

-""We are nearing the time for the reign of heaven. But before that I shall come back and bring a bucketful of blessings for all of you," the man said." jesus speaks english? okay sure maybe it wasnt jesus.... maybe it was...

 

-"and simply vanished into thin air." who was the witness to this? just the guy that drove him?? neehhhh... lil shaky? didnt quite put alot of evidence on this one, eh?

[Vixentrox]

I remember the reports about that.  Hmm, holy poontang...  Well that fish they use probably stands for something.

 

*prepares to get smacked*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Tip that fish on it's side and what do you have?

[BlueGiant]

Something that I don't normally go for.

[chefranden]

CC: But I don't blame him.  He didn't "do" those things.  Human beings did them. In the case of Tsunami last winter, nature did it.  I do think God *allowed* those things, but then, I don't believe he interferes with nature much, nor do I believe he thwarts freewill.

All it takes for injustice to triumph is for good gods to do nothing.

 

Standing by when you have the ability to halt an injustice is immoral.

 

As for justice-- I believe it will be meted out at a later time.  A cop out? Many people think so, but I do not.  I suppose I fall in line with here with the typical Christian response that you get so sick of reading.

Justice delayed is justice perverted.

 

I think that God both allows events *and* empathizes with those who suffer.  I think that human evil grieves him. 

Poor God, lets send him flowers and a card. I know how he feels. I used to feel sad after ripping the wings off of flies myself.

 

By the way this defines God as a sadomasochistic voyeur giving yourself the answer to your question:

 

Do these atrocities cause you to feel that God is sadistic pervert or that God is not real?  Or both?

 

CC

[ExRC]

FYI..no Christian has given a rational answer to my simple question.

 

I'm not surprised.

[Christopher Carrion]

I think what this post has inadvertantly demonstrated is just how willing adherents of Christianity are in this increasingly secular age to forcibly interpret any situation or coincidence, no matter how insignificant, as evidence for divine intervention.

 

CC, my condolences regarding your cat. It is always difficult losing a loved one, be they human or otherwise. But concerning the supposed "sign" that came after, did you stop to consider that maybe the cat in question often uses that route, that perhaps it lives nearby, and might often be observed prowling there? Had you looked up a second later, and saw nothing, would you have so readily taken that as evidence that your cat was not okay in the "spirit realm"? I think not. My point is that, in your emotionally uncertain state, you were looking for whatever point of comfort you could find, and thanks to a concerted and deliberate effort on your part, you found it. The same can be said for EVERY recorded instance on which someone proclaims they have experienced divine intervention; there are always logical explanations, and their interpretation of the event seems nothing more than a rather self-fulfilling attempt to reinforce the beliefs by which they define themselves.

 

Besides which, we are by nature pattern seeking entities; we see faces in clouds, we see shapes in spirals of frost on windows. They have no significance other than what we choose as individuals to attach to them. They are, in other words, matters of interpretation. Say an ardent Christian sees what they interpret as the face of Jesus (based upon the traditional Renaissance portrayal of him as a skinny white and bearded European gentleman). They will no doubt interpret that as a sign from God based upon some situation in their own lives. Should two Christians witness it, they will each have a similar interpretation, but the significance of the "sign" may differ dramatically depending upon the individual circumstances in which they find themselves. Now, add in to the equation someone raised in a culture where biblical religion is not significant, or widely known. The most they will see is a rough human face in the glass; nothing more, nothing less. Signs and symbols are very much like art or literature; their significance depends as much (if not more) on the individual preconceptions and intentions of the observer as those of the writer/artist/creator. Therefore the notion of any symbol, art or even work of literature having some universal and unasailable significance is redundant. One might also think of applying this to the scriptures from which faith is derived.

[Guest Roamin' Lion]

We all have points of reference. We interpret our world and our circumstances according to our belief system.

 

There are hundreds of other ways to view any specific experience.

 

If your references are all within a Christian philosophy, then all of what happens to you will be interpretted there.

 

That is how absurd rationalizations sprung up.

[Mythra]

Besides which, we are by nature pattern seeking entities; we see faces in clouds, we see shapes in spirals of frost on windows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Exactly right. All depends on your level of brainwashing. Hell, I used to notice telephone poles and think God was confirming himself to my heart.