The Holy Spirit Helps You To Exagerate

[Ouroboros]

You know Hans, I've actually been wrestling with using the title atheist anymore. What would you call someone who believes in a "literal symbol"? (It sort of has the ring of "one hand clapping" to it).

I can understand that.

 

However, I don't feel any issue with using the label, since I consider it much wider in definition than most people. I equate atheist to be almost the same as a non-theist. In other words, it is just, and only, the opposite in believing in a Theistic God. That means that non-theistic god concepts are still under evaluation, and not necessarily excluded. Most people like to use the term "atheist" to it's most extreme limiting and narrow definition, which is a view I don't completely agree with. Just as well as we know that the label "Christian" means so much more than a Jesuit Catholics, or only Southern Baptists, we do recognize the wide definition of this word. Another example is the word politician, which is not the same and only the definition of a president. A president is a politician, but not all politicians are presidents. And the same goes for atheist. Not all atheist are the ones that claim that "I know by 1000% that all kinds of every possible definition of a god does not exist." Usually when extreme limiting definition of a word is used, it's used to discredit the view, not really help understanding it. On the other hand, when it comes to science, it's important to keep straight and strict definitions and not let it slip outside of what is agreed to be a definition. But in common language, for words we use in our daily use, a lot of words cover broad concepts. For instance, I've read arguments for why an atheist is in effect a pantheist, and I can understand that view and won't argue against it. I even have a few arguments up my sleeve to support it, and even arguments to support a form of "deistic" god, but I still remain an atheist, because in my understanding of the word, it's that it stands for the anti-thesis of traditional concepts and contemporary, and common, views of what a "God" is, and not necessarily the concepts and views that might come in the future.

 

That being said, you know we both played with a new label a while ago, and we did so just because people tend to misinterpret the word "atheist". I think I'm actually caring less and less what people call themselves, because the "title" they give themselves are based so much on how they interpret that particular "title". So these labels are becoming more and more useless and non-functional. It's like calling oneself "Xyz-ist", and from that point just explain what it means personally, instead of trying to stick to a misunderstood label.

[Antlerman]

Have fun fishing. I was hoping you, or someone else, could suggest some books produced by modern scholarship to read that would help to being to answer my questions. Where can I start to dig into biblical history with the schools of modern scholarship? I'm a biology major, not a history or theology major, and know very little about studying history or theology. So if you could suggest some literature to start, that would be great.

 

Ryan

Never did make it to the lake today, but did get up North and had a nice BBQ with the folks and should maybe hit the lake tomorrow.

 

References:

 

Here's a great youtube series with NT scholar Bart Erhman you will find educational. He's not out to attack the Bible. Not at all. It's a very respectful, but realistic look at how the NT was formed. You should find it informative, to say the least. It's in 10 parts: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=21093

 

Another good, easily accessible look at the birth of Christianity aired on PBS some time back, and the text of it is available online. It's a look at Christianity by the best of modern Christian scholars, so likewise it's not any sort of attack on Christianity at all. These people are Christians who paint this informative picture of early "Christianities". I very much enjoyed this series which is most appropriately named, "From Jesus to Christ": http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...religion/jesus/

 

Other authors to look at who are from the more atheist camps that are worthwhile would be Robert Price, "Deconstructing Jesus".

 

One online book I enjoyed that is quite provocative, though certainly not the definitive word on the subject, is The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty. It begins here: http://www.humanists.net/jesuspuzzle/preamble.htm

 

I would only caution that whatever you take from authors, that when it comes to history it is at best educated guessing. Reality in history is often found between the lines, as is done in trying to piece together what may have happened to create this myth of Jesus we have today. To read what one sees on the pages of the NT as "Gospel Truth", is as I said, Romanticism. The real truth lies somewhere behind the scenes. Hence why I like that PBS special's title From Jesus to Christ. The story evolved. Which is why I tend to see the likelihood of the "Gospel Story" to be that of some charismatic popular figure, along with some various schools of wisdom (such as the John the Baptist sect of the essences, and the sayings Gospel of Thomas), along with Greek mystery religion, along with Jewish mysticism, etc all blending together into a pot that was cooked and stewed into regions and cultures and hashed out by the chefs in council meetings as they tried to pull this all together into some unified force of political organization.

 

IMO, the original Christians died like the original hippies did in staging their own funeral once it became the popular thing to do and the impetus that drove the birth of the movement became the enemy itself that they originally sought to break away from. Christianity died in the first century.

 

I'll post some other references as they come to me, and I'm sure other's have one's they found helpful as well.

[EdwardAbbey]

I find, that Christians claims of what the Holy Spirit does, are often dishonest. Christians, when trying to convert unbelievers make grandiose claims about the HS. Like it helps them understand the bible and without it you can't possibly understand it. Or that if you are an ex-Christian then you can't possibly have ever experienced the Holy Spirit, because if you did, it would be so profound you couldn't possibly reject it.

 

It's not only dishonest, it's totally absurd. If the HS is what causes Christians to understand the bible correctly than isn't it any wonder why their are so many different denominations and disagreements among Christians when it come to the bible? Guess that invisible holy spook isn't doing it's job properly eh? It's just so freakin bogus the entire idea. It's the typical tools of Christian brainwashing is all that it is.

[Sky Dancer]

Thanks for the info Antlerman. With these and some other things I found on amazon.com I'm going to have my weekends full for many months to come (school in the morning and full time 2nd shift every week day). I think I know where this journey will end up but its going to be a long, thought out process of seeking the truth. I'm also going to read the bible cover to cover, except this time, I will be reading it objectively and critically as I would a scientific article or other historical work. I will try as much as possible to approach it without a pre-concieved notion that it is God inspired. We will see if I come away looking at the bible differently. I don't think I will every be able to go back to the point of being an ultra-fundamentalist Christian. There is too much control there. I know you know what I'm talking about too. I will say that one thing that really oepened my eyes to the reat of the world was when I took some much needed time off of school to do somerthing I had always wanted to do: be a long haul trucker. I was exposed to a whole new culture where there are many people from different backgrounds and who beleive in many things. I also learned you are respoinsible for yourself and no one else is going to look after you out there on your own. God seemed to not matter that much out on the road. Interestingly enough, my trainer who i spent a few months with on the road was Wiccan and bisexual. We became good friends. The whole experience was just really an eye opener.

 

This is a big of a tangent, but does kind of relate to the holy spirit thread. Can anyone explain the sometimes radical conversion of Christians, who sometimes, overnight or within a few weeks, shed their drugs, ciagrettes, booz, etc and appear to be totally changed individuals who are joyous and happy? Testimonies are another powerful element used to bring people to Christ. For example, the pastor of the church I used to go to (I had to move) gave his testiomny of owning night clubs and living in sin with his marriage falling apart. He attended a Kawana's club meeting and was saved at the meeting, undergoing a radical conversion. He literally became a different person. He and his wife were close to divorce. She didn't belive him at first but after a couple of weeks went she realize he and changed and she concerted too. They are what I would describe as 2 of the most loving and God-filled people there are. They went on to start a couple of churches and finally started the one I attended, which grew rapidly, is now at over 1500 people. Many lives have been changed and they have helped the community tremendously, making great strides to heal the racism that plauges this area. It is a multi racial church. I realize all of this isn't emperical evidence, but how do you just explain something like that? It almost seems too great to be something just humans can do.

[Justin]

Sky Dancer, try this site out. It helped me out immensly in my deconversion. It is a great read. http://www.godvsthebible.com/tableofcontents

[Justin]

Also read the 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins and 'The End of Fatih' by Sam Harris.

[JernJane]

I can be justifyibly called an emotional person and it seems, as I have learned from my experience as a Christian, that I am also quite capable of manipulating my own emotions and my sub-conscious knows very well how to do it.

 

I had prophecies spoken over me, I felt the "presence of God" and had "prophetic" dreams, I experienced the euphoria and even sometimes felt that Jesus was standing or walking next to me, only I couldn't see him. It was a strange thing but it's something that I imposed upon my own self. It would never have happened if I didn't so dramatically wish it to. It's wishful thinking, and that's all it is.

[OnceConvinced]

This is my first post on ex-christian.net. I am an evangelical Christian but suffice it to say, without going into too much detail, I am beginning to have my doubts and questions about my faith. I'm 25, in college, a biology major, and have had to come to terms with the fact that evolution is true. I was ok with that and could accept a figurative interpretation of Genesis. It's not that simple though; I soon realized other things, like the genesis flood, the tower of babel, etc, could not be true. There are also many contradictions in the bible. I'm on a search for the truth, which lead me to google and ultimately, here. I am questioning so many things after learning to think for myself, thanks to our wonderful university system. Growing up in rural Arkansas, I have never been given the opportunity to question these things I've been tought my whole life, until recently. Now, to the topic of this post. I have been in a charasmatic church and had many very powerful, intimate experiences with the holy spirit. The range from feeling the presence of God, both privately and corporately, to feeling overhwelmed with the intense love and awe of God, to being so full of the HS you can barely stand or your whole body feels on fire and you speak in tongues. Some of you can probably relate to this. These experiences are very real to me, and I cannot simply rationalize or explain them away. No matter how much I question my faith, the bible, etc, I cannot get over the fact that it seems I've had very real encoutners with God. For those of you that have experienced this, how did you overcome this? How did you explain this away? Is there any physiological/neurological basis for this? Are there other religions where people experience an equally powerful, overwhelming presence? Thanks for your help,

 

Ryan

Hi Ryan. When I originally signed up here, I too was still a Christian and really starting to question things much like you. Now I've broken completely free and although I'm still suffering withdrawal regularly I now know I can no longer seriously contemplate going back. Once you step outside that Christian box and look in from the outside, you can't help but see the absurdity of it all.

 

It seems you have had some fairly powerful experiences and I'll be interested in what others have to say. (I'm replying first without reading further, which I tend to do, otherwise my head gets too full of things I want to comment on). I guess for me, it's coming to the realisation that other people in other religions also have powerful spiritual experiences that help me come to grips with the fact that the "Holy Spirit" is not something supernatural, nor is it anything exclusive to Christianity. I do think that external stimuli (like music and hypnotic sermons) can bring on such experiences. I have experienced some stuff that seemed pretty profound at the time, but then many so-called Christians claim I was never a true Christian so could never have possibly experienced the Holy Spirit. I can't say I've ever been so filled with the HS that I've involuntarily started speaking in tongues. Was yours involuntary or did you just have an overwhelming urge? Also, I would ask, have you ever experienced these things outside the church building (away from worship or altar calls) or times that you were listening to music or meditating on God or the bible. My theory is that the HS does not generally touch you unless you're being stimulated emotionally in some way.

[OnceConvinced]

...

I can still speak in tongues, and even interpret them if I want to. It's so easy. So since the Holy Spirit is filling the atheist with his powers... I must be on the right track!

 

I've fallen "under the power of the spirit" too. It's a mental thing. The mind wants it so bad, so it makes you act according to your hopes, and makes you believe it wasn't you who really did it. The power of suggestion. And the thing of you not feeling the bruise, it's adrenaline and endorphins. Athletes experience the same thing... without supernatural powers.

 

 

 

I've never completely fallen out, is in being slain in the spirit. It just never happened to me. Maybe I'm not open to the power of suggestion as much as others. It always made me feel that somethign was wrong with me, that others would fall out when prayed over and I never would. It made me feel fake and as if I had something missing that they had. Anywho, I did fake it once, let them catch me, laid there a minute and got up. But I've never fallen out by a supernatural power.

I think the whole falling over thing (slain in the spirit) is a great example of what Han was saying about "monkey see, monkey do". I think in many churches it becomes something that is expected of people when they go up for prayer. They even have guys standing there behind you ready to catch you if you fall back. I remember going up ocassionally, hoping that it would happen to me. Often standing there with the music filling the atmosphere, with all the emotion and hype, I would often feel a little light headed. And then I would allow myself to fall back. In hindsight I have to admit that I did will it to happen a little and went with it, because that was what was "supposed" to happen. I think pride comes into it too. You want to be one of the people that the HS hits. You don't want to be the only one standing there while everyone around you gets slain.

 

By the way, I think the discussions we're having here is very much on topic. I for one am keen to learn of others experiences and what they put them down to.

[OnceConvinced]

Well I've actually had some pretty amazing experiences with the holy ghost. I have at times been so overcome that I've crashed into walls somehow cut up my hands and legs, and on one occasion even slammed my head into the alter, without having any realization of what was happening to my body till my till afterwards. I have also personally experienced being healed of asthma.

 

Here is what I've realized over time. First the accounts of my healing vary from witness to witness. My mother claims that she saw my lungs fill with air and nothing else, while I swear I felt my ribs move further up. See when I was eleven (I refused to convert for three years after my "healing") I was convinced my ribs were set lower than they should be, and that was the cause of breathing problems. Even though none of the chest xrays I had provided any evidence of this.

 

Any way when the prophetess came to my mothers church and said she could heal my asthma, I wanted to believe it so bad that I convinced my self she could. So when I felt the power come over me I naturally imagined that my ribs reset themselves while my mother simply saw me take a breath.

 

As to the painless trance, I'm not sure if trance is the right word for it since I was moving all those times, that is a little harder to explain. But I guess it can be if I'm willing to admit there may be something wrong with me. One time I was forced to stare at a white cross on a computer screen for an extended period of time, psych study, and while I was staring at it the cross split, then the surrounding area became a pink throbbing tunnel, each of the crosses sprouted a mustache and a beret and started singing to me. I guess what I'm trying to say with this particular story is that the mind is an amazing thing and alot of the experiences christians attribute to the holy ghost are just like the talking crosses, all in their heads.

 

Sorry if I couldn't explain myself better. Ask me to clarify and I'll try.

Hi Mr M.

 

Did you have serious asthma problems or were they more minor, like tightness of chest and wheezing? I've suffered form Asthma all my life and it's usually as a result of allergies. It's never that serious that I can't do anything. Just a puff of the enhaler and I'm right as rain.

 

I think for some, Asthma is a psychosomatic thing. Maybe not for those who have real serious asthma, but for some like myself. If I go to bed and check my enhaler is there, you can guarantee that a minute or so later my chest will tighten and I'll start wheezing. However if I go to bed not thinking about it, chances are I'll get through the night without needing it. I think suggestion is a powerful thing to. If you really believe God has healed you, then for a thing like Asthma, it could no doubt do the trick. Especially if it is psychosomatic.

[OnceConvinced]

This is a big of a tangent, but does kind of relate to the holy spirit thread. Can anyone explain the sometimes radical conversion of Christians, who sometimes, overnight or within a few weeks, shed their drugs, ciagrettes, booz, etc and appear to be totally changed individuals who are joyous and happy? Testimonies are another powerful element used to bring people to Christ. For example, the pastor of the church I used to go to (I had to move) gave his testiomny of owning night clubs and living in sin with his marriage falling apart. He attended a Kawana's club meeting and was saved at the meeting, undergoing a radical conversion. He literally became a different person. He and his wife were close to divorce. She didn't belive him at first but after a couple of weeks went she realize he and changed and she concerted too. They are what I would describe as 2 of the most loving and God-filled people there are. They went on to start a couple of churches and finally started the one I attended, which grew rapidly, is now at over 1500 people. Many lives have been changed and they have helped the community tremendously, making great strides to heal the racism that plauges this area. It is a multi racial church. I realize all of this isn't emperical evidence, but how do you just explain something like that? It almost seems too great to be something just humans can do.

I think a new outlook on life can do wonders for someone. To go from not believing in God, to believing in a God that can give you strength and help you kick all your bad habits, can be very empowering. It's similar to the old "mind over matter" or "positive thinking" concepts. Except this time you believe you have an all powerful God on your side helping you along the way. And of course once you start seeing that you have the strength to deal with these things, your outlook on life is going to become a lot more positive. What you have are people who had the strength to change all along, they just needed some way of bringing out those strengths.

 

I think one of the big things is the desire to change. I think for a lot of people who have radically changed due to faith, they were at that point in their life where they had had a guts full of their life. They were at the point where they just weren't willing to put up with it any more. And religion was something they could see that would give them that positive kick they needed in the right direction. I think if they didn't have that very strong desire to change, they probably wouldn't have changed. We can see that so often with people, including those who become Christians. The desire to turn over a new leaf just isn't that strong. So they will simply keep going along the same path as they were and their religion will make little difference, except to help them feel as though they're forgiven.

[Antlerman]

This is a big of a tangent, but does kind of relate to the holy spirit thread. Can anyone explain the sometimes radical conversion of Christians, who sometimes, overnight or within a few weeks, shed their drugs, ciagrettes, booz, etc and appear to be totally changed individuals who are joyous and happy? Testimonies are another powerful element used to bring people to Christ. For example, the pastor of the church I used to go to (I had to move) gave his testiomny of owning night clubs and living in sin with his marriage falling apart. He attended a Kawana's club meeting and was saved at the meeting, undergoing a radical conversion. He literally became a different person. He and his wife were close to divorce. She didn't belive him at first but after a couple of weeks went she realize he and changed and she concerted too. They are what I would describe as 2 of the most loving and God-filled people there are. They went on to start a couple of churches and finally started the one I attended, which grew rapidly, is now at over 1500 people. Many lives have been changed and they have helped the community tremendously, making great strides to heal the racism that plauges this area. It is a multi racial church. I realize all of this isn't emperical evidence, but how do you just explain something like that? It almost seems too great to be something just humans can do.

To briefly address this radical change thing: what I've really come to understand is to recognize the power that we have inside of us, and that belief systems are really simply a means for us to tap into that. For instance in your example above of the minister, you'll notice that he was already a business owner, actually owning several. Yet he found himself dissatisfied with the direction certain things had gone in his life, his marriage was in trouble, and the bottom line was he was unhappy. So he goes to this Kiwanis Club meeting (which I didn't think was a Christian organization) and someone "shares the Gospel" with him. Now what happens is the simple fact this is presented as a message of hope for his life; he suddenly commits to a decision to turn his life around by symbolically placing it in "Jesus"; then HE takes the action to stop drinking, focus his life on what he had been wishing to do, etc, all the while moving this hope from himself to an externalized object of those hopes.

 

This is done because frankly, he wanted that change already but didn't know how to believe in himself in this area of his life in order to turn things around. Then his wife, who likewise wanted to have things work out between them, hops on board with this system he adopted, since it seemed to be working for him, and now was able to get from him with him using that system, what she wanted for her life - a happy marriage. Now that he's find the direction for his life that he wanted by picking up this tool of directed belief, he takes his business sense and all the other qualities as a leader he already had, and builds multiple churches.

 

It doesn't matter which religion, or even system of popular self-help methods one uses, this scenario plays out in those who convert to Islam the same way, for the same reasons. Is this a miracle testimony to the "Power of God"? Well.... only in the power of belief, which is something noteworthy. But that then opens the door for it being something bigger than any one particular god system.

 

How I see things in this light is that belief in God is about you becoming God. God is symbolic. People use symbols as objects of focus and belief. But ultimately, where is that power coming from? The object itself? Or is the object helping you pull that power out of yourself? To say "Jesus gives me strength", is really more accurately said, "My belief in Jesus helps me find the strength in myself". But people need to maintain this as some externalized force, when it's really not.

 

I would argue that in maintaining in their mind that it's something they have to beg down from heaven, they will never really fully understand the freedom or power of what's already theirs. It doesn't come from above, but inside. Once someone moves beyond needing to hold onto the symbol, and move fully into what the symbol points to, then that's when they 'become God' so to speak and realize that the power and light is their own. "In the beginning man created God in his own image". That's why.

 

 

P.S. One other thing to mention, that often times these "testimonies" are laced with language and points of view that tend to spin them in a certain light to favor people seeing them as "miraculous". This would be done for several reasons: To reinforce their belief system to themselves; to sell it to others; and in some cases to make one's life look miraculous to others in order to get them to accept them socially, as fitting into the club of the "saved".

[Sky Dancer]

This is a big of a tangent, but does kind of relate to the holy spirit thread. Can anyone explain the sometimes radical conversion of Christians, who sometimes, overnight or within a few weeks, shed their drugs, ciagrettes, booz, etc and appear to be totally changed individuals who are joyous and happy? Testimonies are another powerful element used to bring people to Christ. For example, the pastor of the church I used to go to (I had to move) gave his testiomny of owning night clubs and living in sin with his marriage falling apart. He attended a Kawana's club meeting and was saved at the meeting, undergoing a radical conversion. He literally became a different person. He and his wife were close to divorce. She didn't belive him at first but after a couple of weeks went she realize he and changed and she concerted too. They are what I would describe as 2 of the most loving and God-filled people there are. They went on to start a couple of churches and finally started the one I attended, which grew rapidly, is now at over 1500 people. Many lives have been changed and they have helped the community tremendously, making great strides to heal the racism that plauges this area. It is a multi racial church. I realize all of this isn't emperical evidence, but how do you just explain something like that? It almost seems too great to be something just humans can do.

To briefly address this radical change thing: what I've really come to understand is to recognize the power that we have inside of us, and that belief systems are really simply a means for us to tap into that. For instance in your example above of the minister, you'll notice that he was already a business owner, actually owning several. Yet he found himself dissatisfied with the direction certain things had gone in his life, his marriage was in trouble, and the bottom line was he was unhappy. So he goes to this Kiwanis Club meeting (which I didn't think was a Christian organization) and someone "shares the Gospel" with him. Now what happens is the simple fact this is presented as a message of hope for his life; he suddenly commits to a decision to turn his life around by symbolically placing it in "Jesus"; then HE takes the action to stop drinking, focus his life on what he had been wishing to do, etc, all the while moving this hope from himself to an externalized object of those hopes.

 

This is done because frankly, he wanted that change already but didn't know how to believe in himself in this area of his life in order to turn things around. Then his wife, who likewise wanted to have things work out between them, hops on board with this system he adopted, since it seemed to be working for him, and now was able to get from him with him using that system, what she wanted for her life - a happy marriage. Now that he's find the direction for his life that he wanted by picking up this tool of directed belief, he takes his business sense and all the other qualities as a leader he already had, and builds multiple churches.

 

It doesn't matter which religion, or even system of popular self-help methods one uses, this scenario plays out in those who convert to Islam the same way, for the same reasons. Is this a miracle testimony to the "Power of God"? Well.... only in the power of belief, which is something noteworthy. But that then opens the door for it being something bigger than any one particular god system.

 

How I see things in this light is that belief in God is about you becoming God. God is symbolic. People use symbols as objects of focus and belief. But ultimately, where is that power coming from? The object itself? Or is the object helping you pull that power out of yourself? To say "Jesus gives me strength", is really more accurately said, "My belief in Jesus helps me find the strength in myself". But people need to maintain this as some externalized force, when it's really not.

 

I would argue that in maintaining in their mind that it's something they have to beg down from heaven, they will never really fully understand the freedom or power of what's already theirs. It doesn't come from above, but inside. Once someone moves beyond needing to hold onto the symbol, and move fully into what the symbol points to, then that's when they 'become God' so to speak and realize that the power and light is their own. "In the beginning man created God in his own image". That's why.

 

 

P.S. One other thing to mention, that often times these "testimonies" are laced with language and points of view that tend to spin them in a certain light to favor people seeing them as "miraculous". This would be done for several reasons: To reinforce their belief system to themselves; to sell it to others; and in some cases to make one's life look miraculous to others in order to get them to accept them socially, as fitting into the club of the "saved".

 

Thanks for the clear and concise resonse. Now I have another question to you: assuming you are correct, that there is no god, and this minister is acting within his own capacities and leadership abilities, deluded in his faith in a higher being, yet he is using this to bring about good and training other disiples to do this also: building people up, helping to free people from drugs, emtional and sexual abuse, helping to unite a community divided by racism, realizing we are all equally humans regardless of racial or socio-economic backgrounds...are these bad things, done in the name of religion? I realize this church is definately the exception to the rule and not a close minded, self bigoted church only conerned about preahing to the choir, a christian social club basically, like so many out there. If there was a true church that wanted to reach out and help and heal the community this is one. Is this not what religion is supposed to do? Unite people in a loving way? So how is what he and other churches that are doing this a bad thing? Can't religion serve its purpose in the community? I welcome your thoughts and challenges.

[Antlerman]

Thanks for the clear and concise resonse. Now I have another question to you: assuming you are correct, that there is no god, and this minister is acting within his own capacities and leadership abilities, deluded in his faith in a higher being, yet he is using this to bring about good and training other disiples to do this also: building people up, helping to free people from drugs, emtional and sexual abuse, helping to unite a community divided by racism, realizing we are all equally humans regardless of racial or socio-economic backgrounds...are these bad things, done in the name of religion? I realize this church is definately the exception to the rule and not a close minded, self bigoted church only conerned about preahing to the choir, a christian social club basically, like so many out there. If there was a true church that wanted to reach out and help and heal the community this is one. Is this not what religion is supposed to do? Unite people in a loving way? So how is what he and other churches that are doing this a bad thing? Can't religion serve its purpose in the community? I welcome your thoughts and challenges.

Well here's where the discussion gets interesting. I want to first clarify that I would not be one to use the term "delusional" when it comes to someone using a system of mythology. I see that as a more pejorative term that doesn't really apply to religious belief. I've argued against it being used. Reference here.

 

But to your question, if in the end the result of believing in God is a positive one for all concerned, whether that God literally exists or not, than how is that bad? I say it isn't. But here comes the big however. However... is it genuinely positive? Are the people being given the tools they need to be whole and healthy members of society and as individuals?

 

• Are they seeing the world as lost following other systems that aren't their own?
  
• Are they seeing their values as superior to all others, and all others are in error and in need of correction?
  
• Are they viewing science when it reveals insights into the natural world that go against traditionally accepted religious interpretation, as wrong and must conform itself to scripture instead (in other words burying their head in the sand of knowledge)?
  
• Do they stand in the way of progress because they view their traditions as immutable truths delivered from a God?
  
• Do they judge the world through themselves, using the name of God to justify their opinions?
  
• Are they truly finding strength through humility in the face of wisdom, or is their "strength" and sense of "confidence" drawn from being on the "right side" of the argument; being members of the truth camp under the flag of doctrinal correctness, i.e. The Saved™?
  
• Can they not only recognize, but embrace grace and love in the world that doesn't exist within their traditions or doctrines?
  
• Would they support someone who found grace and love more accessible to them through a different path, or do they see that their path is more important than the end result (i.e. worshiping their beliefs)?
  
• Etc.
  

In my experience Christianity inherently has set itself up as exclusive, and in my opinion for the most part fails to live up to the spirit of the law, and instead becomes focused on the letter of the law. Are there groups within a system like this that actually do understand grace in humanity? Yes, I'm sure. It really depends on the leadership and what they have come to see in their lives. But frankly, it's gotten pretty poor marks in my book and for the most part fits more appropriately under the criticism that Jesus threw in the faces of the Pharisees, having substituted religion for the principles of love.

 

An interesting read for you in your spare time is a debate I had here with a Christian, "What does Christianity offer the world in this life that no other religion or philosophy can?" It addresses these issues I'm talking about that most everyone here recognizes and rejects in their experience in Christianity.

 

In so much that I think the end result is more important than the system, I am more than willing to extend a hand of acceptance to someone's Christian beliefs if that is what it does for them. As I said, true and false is really a non-issue. They're neither literal truths, nor literal lies. They're a system, and not all systems work equally well for everyone. I didn't leave Christianity because it was "false". I left it because it failed to work for me to find what I needed to to fulfill what was inside me to realize. If I can't extend a hand of acceptance to the system that may actually be really, genuinely working for someone, than how can I hope for them to move beyond seeing their system as the end truth, to recognize the greater good being served in mine?

 

What does it mean when someone says they worship God? What's being served? Doctrinal truth, or a spirit of love?

 

I will argue a lot here however how that the literalist flavor of Christianity isn't healthy for the reasons listed in my bullet points above. My experience has show it to be unhealthy, not only in my life but in how it affects others and the world around them.

 

Does this help?

[Sky Dancer]

Thanks for the clear and concise resonse. Now I have another question to you: assuming you are correct, that there is no god, and this minister is acting within his own capacities and leadership abilities, deluded in his faith in a higher being, yet he is using this to bring about good and training other disiples to do this also: building people up, helping to free people from drugs, emtional and sexual abuse, helping to unite a community divided by racism, realizing we are all equally humans regardless of racial or socio-economic backgrounds...are these bad things, done in the name of religion? I realize this church is definately the exception to the rule and not a close minded, self bigoted church only conerned about preahing to the choir, a christian social club basically, like so many out there. If there was a true church that wanted to reach out and help and heal the community this is one. Is this not what religion is supposed to do? Unite people in a loving way? So how is what he and other churches that are doing this a bad thing? Can't religion serve its purpose in the community? I welcome your thoughts and challenges.

Well here's where the discussion gets interesting. I want to first clarify that I would not be one to use the term "delusional" when it comes to someone using a system of mythology. I see that as a more pejorative term that doesn't really apply to religious belief. I've argued against it being used. Reference here.

 

But to your question, if in the end the result of believing in God is a positive one for all concerned, whether that God literally exists or not, than how is that bad? I say it isn't. But here comes the big however. However... is it genuinely positive? Are the people being given the tools they need to be whole and healthy members of society and as individuals?

 

• Are they seeing the world as lost following other systems that aren't their own?
  
• Are they seeing their values as superior to all others, and all others are in error and in need of correction?
  
• Are they viewing science when it reveals insights into the natural world that go against traditionally accepted religious interpretation, as wrong and must conform itself to scripture instead (in other words burying their head in the sand of knowledge)?
  
• Do they stand in the way of progress because they view their traditions as immutable truths delivered from a God?
  
• Do they judge the world through themselves, using the name of God to justify their opinions?
  
• Are they truly finding strength through humility in the face of wisdom, or is their "strength" and sense of "confidence" drawn from being on the "right side" of the argument; being members of the truth camp under the flag of doctrinal correctness, i.e. The Saved?
  
• Can they not only recognize, but embrace grace and love in the world that doesn't exist within their traditions or doctrines?
  
• Would they support someone who found grace and love more accessible to them through a different path, or do they see that their path is more important than the end result (i.e. worshiping their beliefs)?
  
• Etc.
  

In my experience Christianity inherently has set itself up as exclusive, and in my opinion for the most part fails to live up to the spirit of the law, and instead becomes focused on the letter of the law. Are there groups within a system like this that actually do understand grace in humanity? Yes, I'm sure. It really depends on the leadership and what they have come to see in their lives. But frankly, it's gotten pretty poor marks in my book and for the most part fits more appropriately under the criticism that Jesus threw in the faces of the Pharisees, having substituted religion for the principles of love.

 

An interesting read for you in your spare time is a debate I had here with a Christian, "What does Christianity offer the world in this life that no other religion or philosophy can?" It addresses these issues I'm talking about that most everyone here recognizes and rejects in their experience in Christianity.

 

In so much that I think the end result is more important than the system, I am more than willing to extend a hand of acceptance to someone's Christian beliefs if that is what it does for them. As I said, true and false is really a non-issue. They're neither literal truths, nor literal lies. They're a system, and not all systems work equally well for everyone. I didn't leave Christianity because it was "false". I left it because it failed to work for me to find what I needed to to fulfill what was inside me to realize. If I can't extend a hand of acceptance to the system that may actually be really, genuinely working for someone, than how can I hope for them to move beyond seeing their system as the end truth, to recognize the greater good being served in mine?

 

What does it mean when someone says they worship God? What's being served? Doctrinal truth, or a spirit of love?

 

I will argue a lot here however how that the literalist flavor of Christianity isn't healthy for the reasons listed in my bullet points above. My experience has show it to be unhealthy, not only in my life but in how it affects others and the world around them.

 

Does this help?

 

Yes, it does. Thanks for helping to put that in perspective. I do have to amit that yes, this church like most christian churches, sees Jesus as the only way and the Bible as God's inerrant word. Those following other ways are lost and in darkness, and in need of a savoir. Evolution is a fiction invented by man who's heart is hardened against God. Any science that contradicts the infallabile, inerrant God inspired Bible can't be true. Homosexuality is a sin but instead of meeting them with hate we must show them the love of Christ and realize we are a hospital to help the sick. The only true love is agape that comes from God. If you aren't a Christian you can't show true love. I really don't know the answers to your last three questions. I was only thinking of the end result. However, after answering your questions about, I'm a little wowed at how self-centered their world view is. I'm really not sure what to say. Within the literal interpratation of the bible, they are a great Christian church, true to the message of Jesus. I guess it depends on your prespective, whether the end justifies the means or whether the means is more important than the end result.

[Antlerman]

Yes, it does. Thanks for helping to put that in perspective. I do have to amit that yes, this church like most christian churches, sees Jesus as the only way and the Bible as God's inerrant word. Those following other ways are lost and in darkness, and in need of a savoir. Evolution is a fiction invented by man who's heart is hardened against God. Any science that contradicts the infallabile, inerrant God inspired Bible can't be true. Homosexuality is a sin but instead of meeting them with hate we must show them the love of Christ and realize we are a hospital to help the sick. The only true love is agape that comes from God. If you aren't a Christian you can't show true love. I really don't know the answers to your last three questions. I was only thinking of the end result. However, after answering your questions about, I'm a little wowed at how self-centered their world view is. I'm really not sure what to say. Within the literal interpratation of the bible, they are a great Christian church, true to the message of Jesus. I guess it depends on your prespective, whether the end justifies the means or whether the means is more important than the end result.

Yes, this is where I have a problem with it. This is the sort of thing that pained my spirit and violated my reason. That's the sort of thing that I found hindered me, rather than helped. I came to Christianity looking to build upon dwhat had been opened to me, and instead confronted a system that was an end in itself, and a dead end for me. It was helpful in that it gave me rigid structure to help stabilize my life in my youth coming out of a time where I needed structure, but as I grew, I outgrew it. It demanded a violation of reason, it demanded alienation from others, it demanded I see everyone as lost and condemned in order to be faithful to the truth of the Bible as it was shown to me. It cause grief, not joy. It caused imprisonment, not liberation. The words of the Bible became rallying cries, not words of inspiration. It was fake salvation. It was religion. It kept me from finding what I sought in turning to it for my spirit.

 

I won't presume to tell you what's right for you. I would only hope that what people take away from whatever they find works for them is to embrace the value of life above affiliation. In my view, any religion that places itself above "God", in this way, are shall we say idolaters? Religion vs. Spirituality. I'll reference you to another thread from some while back where I was bemoaning what I was seeing in this at that time way back in January of '06: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=6401&hl=

 

Anyway, please feel free to continue to ask whatever you wish. I'm enjoying this opportunity to put my thoughts together like this in response to you.

[Guest Nectar]

...

I can still speak in tongues, and even interpret them if I want to. It's so easy. So since the Holy Spirit is filling the atheist with his powers... I must be on the right track!

 

I've fallen "under the power of the spirit" too. It's a mental thing. The mind wants it so bad, so it makes you act according to your hopes, and makes you believe it wasn't you who really did it. The power of suggestion. And the thing of you not feeling the bruise, it's adrenaline and endorphins. Athletes experience the same thing... without supernatural powers.

 

 

 

I've never completely fallen out, is in being slain in the spirit. It just never happened to me. Maybe I'm not open to the power of suggestion as much as others. It always made me feel that somethign was wrong with me, that others would fall out when prayed over and I never would. It made me feel fake and as if I had something missing that they had. Anywho, I did fake it once, let them catch me, laid there a minute and got up. But I've never fallen out by a supernatural power.

 

 

I have never fallen down under prayer, except those time when I faked it because I didn't want the minister to feel bad that his prayer wasn't working or I wasn't feeling anything. The same goes for speaking in tongues. I had to trick my self and pretend, to not stand out like a black dove.

 

There were times when these experiences have felt more genuine, but they were mostly during personal devotions, kind of like meditating.

[Shawn]

So were/are your Holy Spirit experiences anything particularly profound?

Were/are they standard compared to other Christians?

Do you think that Christians embellish the Holy Spirit to win converts and to try to convince others their God is for real?

Are they less likely to embellish when talking to other Christians?

 

So were/are your Holy Spirit experiences anything particularly profound?

Were/are they standard compared to other Christians?

Do you think that Christians embellish the Holy Spirit to win converts and to try to convince others their God is for real?

Are they less likely to embellish when talking to other Christians?

Hello OnceConvinced,

 

Yes, I used to have some serious HS attacks, where I felt a "power" actually speak to me at times, and lead me to witness "the faith" to others. I would see demons, angels, and so on from time to time (I know some wacko Christian will possibly read this and get 'encouraged' - puke). No, I am not joking. I got so sick of it, it is one of the reasons I departed Christianity. It will make you a functioning psychotic.

 

YES, Christians often do lie to win people over or to win a argument, and will say things like "God told me about you", or "The HS told me to tell you this". And when confronted about it, they will never (or very rarely) admit fault.

 

I think they go absolutely loony when they talk with each other - it's 'impossible to lie', as they are all under the HS blathering to each other about nonsense. It's a HS/Jesus/YHWH psycho rally. I remember more than a few times, going to a different Church to visit, and one of the senior members would come right up to me and ask, "Brother, does the Lord have a word for us? Do you want to speak?" and I always tried to be really self-controlled, even if I "felt" the HS urging me to talk.

 

I wanted to mention two other things:

 

I remember when I pointed out some of the contradictions in the Bible, most of the Christians I knew got very hostile with me. I was suddenly Satanic, gay, stupid, unloving, a heretic, ect...the HS told them I was!

 

I personally think "Jesus/HS" is a construct the mind creates when you choose to buy into "the faith" ("Yes! I believe!") - like a little program - and it runs accordingly. I think people who are stronger mentally/emotionally and who "truly believe" have the "stronger" Jesus/HS program running, that influences the others. Like a mental "Alpha Wolf".

 

 

Shawn

[Jedah]

The way I see it, the fact that there are doctrinal differences disprove the existence of the HS.

[Shawn]

The way I see it, the fact that there are doctrinal differences disprove the existence of the HS.

 

I came to that way of thinking myself. Since he is supposed to be God, wouldn't he straighten everyone out for the good of the "flock" (everyone on the same sheet of music)?

 

I know the counter-arguments are "free will" and the favorite scape goat, "Satan". But since the Christian is supposed to "give themselves to Jesus and obey", I find both of those hard to accept.

 

Another thing about the HS, is all throughout the past 2,000 years since this cult started, practically everyone, including the "Apostles", thought they would see the end of the world in their life time. If the HS is God, and knows everything, why would he lie to them? Or, if it was their own mistaken belief, why not correct them, being "the spirit of truth"? Is he not supposed to tell believers the truth? For me, that is a huge issue. I have read so many of the "Church Fathers" insane ramblings about "the really naughty naughty man" coming any day (and other strange drivel - very amusing), it just shows their God is a fake.

 

A few months ago I read a few rare and obscure books on medieval life: I wasn't satisfied with Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Tatian and the “Mediterranean Nut Bunch” as I refer to them - I wanted to make sure there was consistent lunacy throughout the ages - and reading some of it is rather funny. So anyway I read the personal writings and accounts of various men and women throughout the early to late middle ages - and many of them, esp. the women, thought the end was coming in their life. Once again, the HS showed he is not good at telling the truth (or does not know much). I would have expected some "future knowledge", since Christianity is all about knowing the future/prophecy ("No Francine, it will be at least another 600 years - tanks, nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers and a global economy. Go back to knitting and child-bearing - that is the salvation of women!").

 

Shawn