You were never a real Christian!

[webmdave]

By Webmdave

 

“You were never a real Christian!”

That’s been the constant mantra in my life since 2001. Well, to be more precise, it’s never been my mantra; it is the mantra I hear from the mouths of innumerable zealots who feel duty bound to harangue me about my apostasy.

 

If I had ever been a “true Christian,” I was told for the thousandth time in a recent argument over the phone with a relative, "it would have been impossible for me to have every left the fold."

 

Impossible!

 

Conveniently, for the Christian, there is Biblical support for the “no true apostates” position. The writer of I John emphatically declares,

“They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” – Chap. 2 v. 19.

In other words, anyone who leaves the church was never a real born again, blood bought believer.

 

Of course the writer of Hebrews didn’t see it that way. That writer states quite clearly that “Those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit…” (Chap 6, v 4) can most certainly later on decide that Christianity is not for them.

 

"If I had ever been a true Christian, it would have been impossible for me to have every left the fold." Obviously there has been considerable disagreement among Christians over how to deal with apostates, clear back to very the genesis of the Jesus cult.

 

My purpose here isn’t to discuss which is the best Biblical interpretation, however. My purpose here is to illustrate the gross contradictions Christians embrace when it comes to dealing with the existence of ex-Christians.

 

Freewill

 

Many Evangelical Christians insist that God holds freewill in the highest esteem. Evangelical meetings are all about enticing people to “Make a decision for Christ.” Christians constantly insist that it is the unbeliever’s God-given right either accept or reject the gospel message. The offer is made, but it is up to the individual to turn toward or away from Jesus. These zealots insist that God Himself won’t override a person’s freewill when it comes to letting Jesus come into that person's life.

 

Once HE has set up shop, though, apparently freewill is over.

 

Think about it! If no “True Christian™â€ can ever turn away from Christianity, then what happens to freewill? Do Evangelicals mean to suggest that only the godless possess freewill and believers are stripped of that nicety?

 

If believers retain full possession of freewill, then believers most certainly have the capacity to change their minds about… well, anything. Right?

 

Wrong! Believers who state there are no ex-Christians are claiming to be bereft of the ability to leave Jesus. Their wills are held captive and “No one can snatch them out of my hand.” – John 10:28.

 

Once HE has set up shop, apparently freewill is over. Freewill is a right so precious that supposedly even God refuses to violate that right when it comes to deciding to become a Christian, but once a person bends and bows, the right to reject His son is forever denied? In fact, the believer is not only denied the right to change his or her mind, the potential to even consider changing his or her mind is permanently removed?

“For if they had belonged to us, they would have REMAINED with us.”

Clearly, freewill believing Christians have no comprehension of what freewill really means. How could they? Once they were free, but now they are in bondage.

 

And how was their freewill removed? Why how else? Magic!

 

The magical power of the Holy Ghost, that same spirit who inseminated a virgin with a male-god version of Himself, is now invading the bodies of believers. While residing there, He so rearranges their genome that deciding to leave Christianity is no longer a possibility!

 

Yeah. Sure. Whatever.

 

Here’s a thought. Perhaps the reason the writer of John wrote his scathing denunciation of apostates is because there were so many people leaving his little cult that it was creating consternation among the remaining faithful. The loss of numbers is not something any cult leader wants to see. In just a few words the writer of I John not only marginalizes those deceptive apostates, calling them antichrists, but he bolsters the pride and confidence of those who remain as the “True” and “Faithful” and “Elect of God.” This guy could have had a nice career in corporate public relations.

 

Well, if a person is able to make a decision for Christ based on currently available information, then that same person can come to a different decision when more information is acquired. There is no question that people can believe things with heart, mind and soul, and devote a lifetime to a cause and then one day figure out that belief was all based on erroneous and false information. It happens all the time. It is no different for Christians.

 

Believing in things that don’t exist or aren’t true are part of being human. Religious belief in all sorts of nonsense is part of being human. The reasonable human is willing and able to admit the possibility of being deceived, mistaken, or just plain stupid. The rational human can decide to be a Christian, decide to remain a Christian, or decide to cease being a Christian. The true human never loses freewill.

 

If we accept the “no ex-Christian” rhetoric as fact, then the only decisions a true Christian can ever make once having said the “sinner’s prayer” are those you’d expect of a mindless automaton.

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

 

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http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008/07...-christian.html

[gradstu09]

I would take your ball and leave, really. They are handing you a gift, the gift of complete dissociation from them and their fucknuttery. Are you aware that there is no such thing as an ex-Catholic (save the rare excommunication)? Once you're baptized, you're Catholic forever. Try getting out of that, if you will.

[MonolithTMA]

I would take your ball and leave, really. They are handing you a gift, the gift of complete dissociation from them and their fucknuttery. Are you aware that there is no such thing as an ex-Catholic (save the rare excommunication)? Once you're baptized, you're Catholic forever. Try getting out of that, if you will.

 

Actually, in my experience, the "You weren't a real christian" line is an excuse to really turn on the evangelizing heat. "Let me show you what it's really like!"

[RevOxley_501]

to the OP

 

check it

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Ouroboros]

Dave,

 

I love it. It never occurred to me that Free Will actually in effect was disabled when they argue "No True Christian." Very good point.

[D Laurier]

As an ex christian, I find this attitde to be especialy hatefull and hurtfull.

It denys me the whole of my experience as a devout and desperate chritian

[deepblue]

Calvinism teaches that there is no such thing as a real "ex-Christian", and it makes sense from a Bible point of view.

 

For instance, the explanation of Heb 6 is clarified by verse 9: "But, beloved, we are persuaded of better things of you, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner." In other words, those who "tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come", who were made "partakers of the Holy Spirit" weren't Christians!!! Therefore it is possible to have experiences of God without being converted.

 

When I think of this, I think "well, if I wasn't a real Christian, then who is?". The answer is: hardly anyone.

 

 

Jon.

[florduh]

Shit! I wasted a lot of time, money and kneeling. I accepted Christ - didn't know he was just kidding.

 

Wait - maybe I was a real Christian and Jesus was not a real saviour.

 

I'm getting confused.

[OnceConvinced]

I wouldn't say that Christian think you can't leave. It's that they think you wouldn't. So if you are a true Christian then you could never ever reject Christ. I don't really think the whole "lack of free will" argument works.

 

As for scripture supporting the notion there is no such thing as an ex-Christian, there are far more convincing scriptures that contradict that (contradictions in the bible??? You don't say!). Paul in particular even identified himself as a person who could become an ex-Christian if he didn't take care.

[chefranden]

When someone mentions that I was never a TrueChristian I agree with them. Since there was never a Christ no one has ever been a TrueChristian. We were and they are FauxChristians.

 

If I'm feeling perverse I argue that they won't know until they die if they are TrueChristians. For all they know they might quit next week. They might get pissed at God and say, "God, you motherfucker!" and then die the next second of a massive heart attack. Oops.

 

I have argued the "no free will" point with them (remember SOIL?) countless times, but they insist that being forced to stay, or not being chosen for grace is still free will.

[Spiderwire]

What do you think?

 

I've been told I wasn't a "true" Christian as well and it did cause me to consider the accusation. So, since you've asked, here's what I think...

 

For 34 years of my life, I had no religious affiliation at all. I didn't knock Christianity because I didn't really know much about it. Religion was actually a non-issue in my life and if someone was religious, it was fine by me. If they weren't, that was cool, too. I didn't even mind when someone talked to me about Jesus or God because, in my mind, they were just trying to be nice. At any rate, I was never offended or put off by religion. It just wasn't my thang, ya know?

 

I remember the day I was "saved". Not the date or anything like that, but the day that what they were saying made sense to me. God loved me, but I was born a sinner and because of that fact, I couldn't come into Heaven. I did, after all, want to go to Heaven when I died. I sure didn't want to go to Hell! God didn't want me to either, so he made a way for me to be sure I'd make it in to Heaven: Jesus! If I believed that Jesus was God's son, if I believed that he died for my sins, if I believed that he rose from the grave... well, I'd be able to go to Heaven when I died. At the church I went to, that teaching was top priority and everything else was really just extra stuff. The way it was presented to me, it sounded fairly reasonable. I wanted to believe there was a God and I wanted to believe that he loved me. They told me he did, so all of the pieces seemed to fit. I was happy to be saved! I was relieved. It was a bonus to know that I could ask God to forgive me for all of the crummy things I'd done in my life and *snap* it was forgiven. That was a load off my mind, too. I was quite happy with the arrangement, but I wanted ALL of it. I wanted to know the Bible and I wanted to know God. I studied dilligently. I worked for the church and I worked for God. I went above and beyond and I loved it. My life had a purpose and I was happy. It was never an issue of what church I went to, but rather what position of leadership I would hold. As I dug deeper and prayed harder and learned more and more, close friends and church leaders were encouraging me to seek ordination. I felt God's call upon my life and I truly believed I was squarely in the middle of his will. In summary, I enjoyed nearly nine years of seeking and serving my God.

 

I won't go into detail, but the following three years of my life were the darkest I've experienced. Like tumbling dominoes, elements of my faith began to, at first, be questioned and ultimately, fall by the wayside. The first was the realization that prayer was useless. Everything after that and the process of how it all came to pass is really irrelevant, but needless to say, during that time I lost all faith in prayer, the Bible, Christianity and the image of God all of it presented. It has taken an additional two years for me to pick up the pieces of my life and it's been difficult at best. But I've done it. For the most part, I find that I'm happier now than any other period of my life. My only real struggle is in beating back the old thoughts and habits I developed as a Christian. Relying on myself is more demanding than imagining that God is guiding me and directing my path, but the personal rewards are better than anything the Bible or the church promised - my results are real and I can see them and feel them!

 

In response to what you had to say, I fulfilled every requirement and obligation of being a Christian, both by the church's definition and the requirements of the Bible. I believed with all my heart and put my money where my mouth was. I talked the talk and I walked the walk. I can honestly say that I did my absolute best. One day I wasn't a Christian, one day I was - true blue and to the rafters.

 

What has happened, however, is that in like manner... one day I was a Christian and now I'm not. I changed my mind. I wasn't, then I was. I was and now I'm not. And really, that's all it amounts to.

 

That's what I think.

[MonolithTMA]

I changed my mind.

 

Exactly!

[Misterspock1]

I've been told this I don't know how many times.

 

What it really is is just a way to make it easier for them to tell you you're going to Hell. That way, once again, the responsibility falls on you, not on God.

[upstarter]

This whole argument about the fact that I was never a true xtian has really bugged me over the years. But lately I'm wondering more and more why does it bother me? It used to piss me off that I did everything they told me to do, I prayed what they told me to pray, I tried to live life by their rules and yet apparently I didn't do it right. But OF COURSE I was not really saved! None of them is either. Now that I know it's all bullshit why does it bug me when they say I could have really been saved, I KNOW I wasn't saved. Neither are they! They continue to play the part and act the role and I don't, that's the only difference.

 

If I had been a blind automaton I would still be a xtian, sure. So really, I should feel proud to know that I was never a true xtian. Good for me. I was as real a believer as any of them is... and I once believed just as deeply in Santa. Somehow I'm not offended by the idea that I was never a true Santa believer.

 

Heather

[Neon Genesis]

If I had been a blind automaton I would still be a xtian, sure. So really, I should feel proud to know that I was never a true xtian. Good for me. I was as real a believer as any of them is... and I once believed just as deeply in Santa. Somehow I'm not offended by the idea that I was never a true Santa believer.

 

Heather

That's the way I like to see it too. If the bible isn't true, then they aren't a true Christian either. But what irritates me about it isn't so much that they think I was never a "true" Christian but it's their attitude of making false presumptions about me without bothering to learn anything about me at all. It's like it's just another way of Christians saying "Oh, maybe you just didn't find the right church", as if we have to play this guessing game until we finally get it right and then finally they'll accept us. It's this whole "I'm better than you because I still believe in Jebuz and you must have been inferior to me or you never would have left" thing about it that really pisses me off.

[MonolithTMA]

I've had an experience this week that culminated in me removing a blog from my RSS feeds and unsubscribing from all the comments for that blog. I've been reading, along with my usual sites, a few Christian blogs. One of them made a regular practice of attacking atheism and atheists. We've had some interesting discussions, but he kept trying to use his Ray Comfort tactics (I swear Ray Comfort has done more to damage Christendom than anyone else in history.) on me, which I pointed out was lame. I thought Ray Comfort and his ilk were arrogant morons even back when I was a Christian, or False Convert as Ray himself called me. Eventually after repeated attempts to get me to bow to Christ, I'm not kidding he used those words, I asked him if he believed me when I said I no longer believed in God. He replied "In a word...No." I told him I had given him no reason to suspect me of lying and being called a liar is one thing I would not tolerate. I told him to have a nice life, and that I still had hope for him. I don't kniow if he ever responded, and I really don't. I was trying the whole time to get him be more loving and compassionate as a Christian, like the ones I still respect. He would have none of it, he basically said he was being a dick because he loved me and didn't want me to go to hell. Now I see why he was banned from commenting on some of the other blogs I read. The sad thing is this guy has kids, just had a new one recently. I congratulated him and told him that loving his child was the most important thing, and he responded that he would teach them hell was real. How fucked up is that? I mean sure, Jesus talked about hell, but that was hardly the bulk of what he said, and he sure as fuck didn't scare little children with talk of hell!

 

OK, I feel better now.

[Realist]

I've had an experience this week that culminated in me removing a blog from my RSS feeds and unsubscribing from all the comments for that blog. I've been reading, along with my usual sites, a few Christian blogs. One of them made a regular practice of attacking atheism and atheists. We've had some interesting discussions, but he kept trying to use his Ray Comfort tactics (I swear Ray Comfort has done more to damage Christendom than anyone else in history.) on me, which I pointed out was lame. I thought Ray Comfort and his ilk were arrogant morons even back when I was a Christian, or False Convert as Ray himself called me. Eventually after repeated attempts to get me to bow to Christ, I'm not kidding he used those words, I asked him if he believed me when I said I no longer believed in God. He replied "In a word...No." I told him I had given him no reason to suspect me of lying and being called a liar is one thing I would not tolerate. I told him to have a nice life, and that I still had hope for him. I don't kniow if he ever responded, and I really don't. I was trying the whole time to get him be more loving and compassionate as a Christian, like the ones I still respect. He would have none of it, he basically said he was being a dick because he loved me and didn't want me to go to hell. Now I see why he was banned from commenting on some of the other blogs I read. The sad thing is this guy has kids, just had a new one recently. I congratulated him and told him that loving his child was the most important thing, and he responded that he would teach them hell was real. How fucked up is that? I mean sure, Jesus talked about hell, but that was hardly the bulk of what he said, and he sure as fuck didn't scare little children with talk of hell!

 

OK, I feel better now.

 

.... he responded that he would teach them hell was real. How fucked up is that? I mean sure, Jesus talked about hell, but that was hardly the bulk of what he said, and he sure as fuck didn't scare little children with talk of hell!

 

Monolith ... that was sure the message I was taught from my earliest living memories as no doubt many others were on here! I was plainly taught also that family came 2nd - God was first! Was a pretty fucked up upbringing!

[MonolithTMA]

.... he responded that he would teach them hell was real. How fucked up is that? I mean sure, Jesus talked about hell, but that was hardly the bulk of what he said, and he sure as fuck didn't scare little children with talk of hell!

 

Monolith ... that was sure the message I was taught from my earliest living memories as no doubt many others were on here! I was plainly taught also that family came 2nd - God was first! Was a pretty fucked up upbringing!

 

What a horrible distortion, aren't men supposed to love their wives (and I would add families) as Christ loved the church? I would think to love anyone would be to love God, in fact the parable of the goats teaches that "In as much as you have done it unto the least of these you have done it unto me".

 

I guess I was fortunate in that nearly all of my Christian friends and family were truly all about the love aspect of Christ's teachings.

[Snafutopia]

I was a real Christian and Jesus was not a real saviour.

 

 

{{Florduh}} That is brilliant. Ok if I borrow it?

[ShadowWolf]

As I've said before, I know how close I followed Jesus, and if Jesus is real, he also knows. I know I was a Christian, if anyone wants to challenge it, fuck them.

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

I was plainly taught also that family came 2nd - God was first! Was a pretty fucked up upbringing!

 

My ex-wife lived this point firmly. God took precedence over everything in her life, the kids included. It's COMPLETELY fucked up and I hope that some day my children get sick of her shit and decide to come live with me.

 

As for the "No True Christian" BS, yes, I get that from the Christians I argue with, although they couch it in more "PC" terms. They don't say that I was never a true Christian, but that I've never experienced God as they have. I don't "have the spiritual equipment" to know God as they do. Right.