Neon Genesis Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Many Christians often claim that the bible is the perfect inerrant word of god. The biggest problem I see with this whole argument is that it presumes that perfection is a universal objective fact when it isn't. What is considered perfection is actually a personal, subjective opinion. For example, say that one person believes that Hawaii is the most perfect island and that everyone should go there at least once in their life. Another person might disagree and believe that Hawaii is imperfect but they believe that the Bahamas is the most perfect island. The two people can argue with each other all day about which island is the most perfect and they might even be able to convince a few people to side with one of them, but unless they can prove that perfection is an objective fact, then it's all nothing more than opinion whether or not an island is perfect and you can never prove that it is indeed a fact that either of the two islands is perfect. If we can disagree with each other on something like the perfection of an island and admit it's all subjective, how can religious believers expect anyone to agree that any religious text is the perfect word of god and why can't we admit that how we view religion is also all subjective? One person might look at the bible and be convinced enough by Christian apologetics to believe that the bible is perfect but another person might be unconvinced no matter what apologetics you throw out that it's imperfect. I think this is because we all have our own ideas of what counts as perfection and until you can either prove that perfection is a universal objective fact or change our opinions to agree with yours as to what is perfection, then you're going to have a much more difficult time trying to prove the bible is perfect to us because perfection is subjective and there is no such thing as a universally perfect anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Agree. What is "perfect"? A perfect circle doesn't exist in reality, because you can't create one. It's a mathematical object, but the physical world limits any attempt of creating one. It's like Plato's Forms, they are just abstract ideas of the form of the object, and the object is when the form has become something. Form in itself doesn't exist like the becoming object, but only exists just like how number one (1) exists. There's no "1" in itself somewhere in the universe, but yet the concept of "1" is there. Perfection is the same way, it doesn't exist as any object or thing, small or large, it's just a concept of something, and we're the ones (humans) to define what it is for each situation. Another problem with the "perfect" Bible is that it was infallible humans who wrote it. It doesn't matter if a perfect God was behind the writing or not, it was still channeled through imperfect beings. If something perfect can come out of, or produced by, imperfect tools, then there's no argument against the universe as being perfect without God. Or rather: God doesn't have to be perfect for the Universe to be perfect, since perfection (the Bible) can be produced by imperfection (humans). Now, of course they argue that God is perfect anyway, because he just is, but the key here is that the Christians have already approved that there's no logical requirement for "perfection from perfection." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 There is no such thing in reality as "perfection". You must know what the standard is. In and of itself the word is meaningless. It may be applied in certain limited circumstances. You may say if you type a document that if there are no typographical errors that it is "letter perfect". Universal perfection does not exist. A perfect world never existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Except one thing: perfect stupidity exists. I've seen it so many times now on this website, so I can't deny its existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 I've always been fond of saying that imperfection is perfection, especially when it comes to how the natural world works. It's stronger through it's imperfections, and therefore functions better. That aspect of imperfection, makes it work and therefore is perfect to it as it give it it's defining characteristics. Death is not imperfection, but perfection from the point of view that life cannot survive without death. This world works. It works because it makes imperfection it's ally. It is therefore a perfect system. To get rid of its imperfection would effectively destroy it. So essentially when Christianity celebrates the idea that death will be vanquished, they are basically saying that they want all biological life to cease. They are in effect, anti-life in their hatred of death. They in effect hate life and call that perfection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 What is wrong with good enough? Adaptability is the mechanism that allows life to continue and survive, without perfection life moves forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 I've always been fond of saying that imperfection is perfection, especially when it comes to how the natural world works. It's stronger through it's imperfections, and therefore functions better. That aspect of imperfection, makes it work and therefore is perfect to it as it give it it's defining characteristics. Death is not imperfection, but perfection from the point of view that life cannot survive without death. This world works. It works because it makes imperfection it's ally. It is therefore a perfect system. To get rid of its imperfection would effectively destroy it. So essentially when Christianity celebrates the idea that death will be vanquished, they are basically saying that they want all biological life to cease. They are in effect, anti-life in their hatred of death. They in effect hate life and call that perfection. A fine Zen statement, Antlerman. Edit: If a thing is not supposed to be perfect, and if this thing is not perfect, then it is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 If a thing is not supposed to be perfect, and if this thing is not perfect, then it is perfect. Perfection as a mode of purpose. It's a really intriguing idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 So essentially when Christianity celebrates the idea that death will be vanquished, they are basically saying that they want all biological life to cease. They are in effect, anti-life in their hatred of death. They in effect hate life and call that perfection. For the most part I agree with this AM. It all boils down to the idea that things just aren't good enough and it's our fault. Christians are taught to hate human existence (man has fallen short in the eyes of god) and by extension the whole universe since the signs of that imperfection, death and decay, manifest in all things. They seek a universe lacking in the mechanism of change, thereby destroying what the wise see as the natural order. By and large this is where Buddhism has lost the plot. If a thing is not supposed to be perfect, and if this thing is not perfect, then it is perfect. There is no perfection, there is no imperfection, only thus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 There is no perfection, there is no imperfection, only thus. Perfectly thus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 +5 chef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 If a thing is not supposed to be perfect, and if this thing is not perfect, then it is perfect. Perfection as a mode of purpose. It's a really intriguing idea. Consider a perfect violin made from an imperfect tree. As a mode of purpose, such a tree could be said to be perfect, since it yielded the perfect wood to make the perfect violin. We could say, "This ugly, wormy, bitter-fruited tree would make the perfect wood for a perfect violin." A far more sensible declaration than saying any tree is perfect in an absolute sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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