The Trinity

[Whindian]

Well I'm stuck going to this camp next week, because I committed to helping out a few months ago. Because I'm a bit annoyed about this (lol), I was hoping to cause some chaos. The topic is on the Trinity, and as such I was wanting to know all of the good arguments I could put forward against the concept. I know I'll never be able to change their minds, but it will at least provide me with a bit of entertainment to get me through those long days.

 

So yeah, if you have any good arguments/websites/material on the topic, it would be appreciated.

[Guest]

Well, with the concept of the Trinity, you can boil the xtain worldview into this:

 

There is an all-powerful, all-knowing god that had sex with a virgin so that he could become human and allow himself to be sacrificed to himself in order to appease his own anger at creatures whom he made flawed in the first place!

[Legion]

In my opinion Whindian it would be better to open their minds to the idea that the Christian Trinity is not the only one and that it may not be what they think it is. I have seen trinities and triads in many different contexts, but always dealing with essentially living things.

 

Here’s a list a few that I’ve seen…

 

Christian Trinity- Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Hindu Trinity- Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu

Freud’s triad- superego, ego, id

Lover’s triad- ideal, social, sexual

Rasmussen’s (biologist) triad- metabolism, membranes, genes

Branches of government- judicial, executive, legislative

Aspects of national power- economic, military, political

 

When I look at these, I see a pattern of sorts. First I see a driving force. Second I see a locus of identity or delineation, a component that separates or protects a being from that which is not the being. Third I see an aspect which brings various parts into unity through renewal, guidance and mutual reinforcement.

 

This is my suspicion. I suspect that there is a way to look at living things and see that there is some sort of triad in play. And it may be that this triad is then fashioned into a living god and worshipped.

 

Just some thoughts.

[centauri]

Well I'm stuck going to this camp next week, because I committed to helping out a few months ago. Because I'm a bit annoyed about this (lol), I was hoping to cause some chaos. The topic is on the Trinity, and as such I was wanting to know all of the good arguments I could put forward against the concept. I know I'll never be able to change their minds, but it will at least provide me with a bit of entertainment to get me through those long days.

 

So yeah, if you have any good arguments/websites/material on the topic, it would be appreciated.

 

 

You could start by asking them where the Hebrew scriptures specifically define God as three elements.

When they offer various verses, make sure you don't settle for anything less than a specific definition of God as three elements.

 

Some New Testament scriptural evidence against the Trinty:

The Risen and Ascended Jesus got his information from God, he didn't get it from himself

Rev 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him...

 

The Risen and Ascended Jesus also claimed to have a God.

He stated this four times in one verse.

Rev 3:12

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

There can be no excuses that this was the earthly Jesus saying these things, as he had already ascended.

 

The ascended Jesus is subservient to God, not his equal.

1 Cor 15:28

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

Also:

1 Cor 11:3

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

 

Jesus is also supposed to be sitting at the right hand of God, not in his chair.

 

I realize that none of this will make a speck of difference to Trinity believing Christians.

Jesus is God, regardless of anything else.

You'll encounter a flurry of assertions that will probably make you wish you had never brought it up at all.

[par4dcourse]

Or you could try a mathematical proof: 1+1+1=1? Let them try getting that to work out.

[trekkie]

Or you could try a mathematical proof: 1+1+1=1? Let them try getting that to work out.

 

Oh, trinitarians have an answer for that one: it is 1 X 1 X 1 = 1. I think such a formula is stupid, but that is their answer.

 

Some other helpful references (although I can't give the verse locations at the moment); the Bible says that God is not a man; God in the Bible is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent (well, mostly) and Jesus was none of these things; Jesus defines God, not as himself, but as a Spirit so it makes saying that there is God and then there is the Holy Spirit a useless definition; Jesus does things and says things according to "God's" power, not his own; Jesus dies and God is immortal; Jesus is "made sin" which, supposedly, God can never tolerate; Jesus never calls himself Yahweh and contradicts Yahweh's teachings in the Old Testament; the Bible never uses the word "trinity", nor defines God as three persons.

 

Hope some of these are helpful.

[Andy]

Point out the differences in character between the OT god and Jesus. God in the OT is all about vengeance and destruction and killing people over nothing. Then suddenly Jesus comes along all nice and "love thy neighbor" and everything. Not to mention he sort of rewrites every rule in the book. Why not just get it right the first time around? Why did Jesus have to come and "clarify" everything?