Admin webmdave Posted August 9, 2008 Admin Share Posted August 9, 2008 A review of scientific studies on intelligence in relation to religiosity. From RationalistTube.Com http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008/08...r-than-non.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vendredie Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Now I know why I seem smarter than most adults I know... To be honest I don't really think there's a connection between theism/atheism and intelligence nor between religiosity in general. Many of the highest-scoring kids in my class are very strongly Xtian. I'm about in the middle and I'm atheist. But maybe that's just my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonHorn Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 I think that religion and intelligence aren't really related. There are just too many smart religious people. Some people are so deeply ingrained in their religion that no matter how smart they are in other aspects of their lives the religion sticks around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 The problem is that religion has always looked down on people with inellectual curiousity, especially women who show signs of intelligence. I distinctly remember as a child getting in trouble at a religious school for being able to read beyond the grade level I should have. I was always several grade levels ahead of my peers in terms of reading ability. And I remember actively being discouraged from learning math and science. Women were supposed to get married, have babies, cook and clean, and that was it. Education was just something the state required us to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vendredie Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Both of you have good points. There's really no correlation between "intelligence" and religion. At the same time, religion does indeed look down on intelligence. IF you're smart you might stray. *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Actually I do think there are some correlation between religion and intelligence. I don't think it necessary is a direct causal link between them, but they do follow suit to some degree. I hope most here understand the difference between causation and correlation? Why I think there is some connection between them, is that religion requires a certain level of "giving up" your thinking faculties. It's not a matter of intelligence as having the ability, genetic disposition, or skill/talent of being smart, but rather willfully laying down those abilities. Religion dictate that you do this "laying down" as a "sacrifice" to the God(s) the religion presents to you, and to the holy writs, traditions and rituals that are included. In other words, religion is a form of willful ignorance, a hand-me-the-answer-and-I'll-suspend-my-thinking-cap. And the brain faculty that replaces it is the emotional faculty. When I was Christian, I wasn't dumb or stupid, but I did however deny my intelligence to control my belief. My belief was based on what I felt. My emotions, or feelings were in control, and intelligence and reason were slaves. When I went through some serious hardship, my emotions became numb and slowly lost control, and my thinking-cap had to take over, and that's why I experienced how my "belief" left me, and reason became the new master. And by doing so, there wasn't any excuse for not studying, reading, learning, experiencing, thinking, understanding and knowing any more. Here's an illustration, I could be the best marathon runner in the world, but if I would put on a 10 lbs backpack, I would not win any race. This doesn't mean I still have the ability, it's just that the baggage I have is holding me back. And that's how religion (in most forms) also hold people back from using the abilities they have. If they leave religion, it seems like their intelligence goes up, just because now finally, they allow themselves to use it. Back to causation/correlation: I think the real cause is the motive and drive of the person. Why a person allow religion to slow him down? Because it's a framework that seems to fit him or her. They like it, they need it, they're addicted to the emotional swings, or they just like the symbolic language it presents. Whichever reason they have, it's not based on rational thought, but on some form of need. This need is the real causation, and if this need is removed, religion is also removed, and the unwillingness to allow their intelligence to flourish is also removed. Does it make any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 We've had this discussion quite a few times. I still think that there is a strong correlation between intelligence and deconversion - which is seperate from religion. Those with higher levels of intelligence are more apt to find the inconsistencies and actually be interested in what they mean. Those with average or lower levels of intelligence tend to be, by my observation anyway, less curious. Without curiosity and the ability to understand nuance religion is the path of least resistance if one is already indoctrinated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Actually I do think there are some correlation between religion and intelligence. I don't think it necessary is a direct causal link between them, but they do follow suit to some degree. I hope most here understand the difference between causation and correlation? Why I think there is some connection between them, is that religion requires a certain level of "giving up" your thinking faculties. It's not a matter of intelligence as having the ability, genetic disposition, or skill/talent of being smart, but rather willfully laying down those abilities. Religion dictate that you do this "laying down" as a "sacrifice" to the God(s) the religion presents to you, and to the holy writs, traditions and rituals that are included. In other words, religion is a form of willful ignorance, a hand-me-the-answer-and-I'll-suspend-my-thinking-cap. And the brain faculty that replaces it is the emotional faculty. When I was Christian, I wasn't dumb or stupid, but I did however deny my intelligence to control my belief. My belief was based on what I felt. My emotions, or feelings were in control, and intelligence and reason were slaves. When I went through some serious hardship, my emotions became numb and slowly lost control, and my thinking-cap had to take over, and that's why I experienced how my "belief" left me, and reason became the new master. And by doing so, there wasn't any excuse for not studying, reading, learning, experiencing, thinking, understanding and knowing any more. Here's an illustration, I could be the best marathon runner in the world, but if I would put on a 10 lbs backpack, I would not win any race. This doesn't mean I still have the ability, it's just that the baggage I have is holding me back. And that's how religion (in most forms) also hold people back from using the abilities they have. If they leave religion, it seems like their intelligence goes up, just because now finally, they allow themselves to use it. Back to causation/correlation: I think the real cause is the motive and drive of the person. Why a person allow religion to slow him down? Because it's a framework that seems to fit him or her. They like it, they need it, they're addicted to the emotional swings, or they just like the symbolic language it presents. Whichever reason they have, it's not based on rational thought, but on some form of need. This need is the real causation, and if this need is removed, religion is also removed, and the unwillingness to allow their intelligence to flourish is also removed. Does it make any sense? ..... very well put Hans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Maybe it's a certain kind of intelligence that leads people away from religion. People who don't like to be told what to think or believe, but would rather figure out for themselves will react negatively to religion. But it's not exactly the same thing as intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherRainMan Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I really don't know who's right in this situation. Yes, in my opinion, religion can make a smart man say stupid things. Religion only encourages intelligence and free thought only if it can make religion look better and convert people who can't think for himself. For instance, there is this guy named Troy Brooks. Troy loves to troll on forums that don't support his view that "Jesus is the only way" (He has even told me personally that I am going to hell and that I do not know what I am doing) He always goes to his big proof (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm) and links to his always-being-censored forum that simply put is "perfect in proving that God exists". A person that doesn't think for him/herself would take one look at it and say "Look at all these words! He must know what he's talking about! God does exist!" The part is that a lot of the "evidence" is based on the Bible, which has NUMEROUS contradictions. The worst part is that, well, Christianity is based on faith. The definition of faith (the last time I remember) is the conviction of the truth of some doctrine which is the result of a voluntary act of will (Basically believing without evidence). If Troy knew that, he wouldn't be preaching to people about how right he is. He wouldn't be condemning everyone to hell because he'd wouldn't have his smart-ass proof because He quotes bible verses like the bible is a word-for-word of what happened (Which we know is impossible). He quotes bible verses like the bible is a word-for-word of what happened (Which we know is impossible). But wait! You are just as bad as him not giving evidence! Well, In chapter one of Genesis, it states that On the sixth day, God made Adam and Eve. Next chapter, God creates man first, man does a few things, names a few animals. He then talks to "God" and s/he takes one of Adam's ribs and makes Eve. The bible is filled with these contradictions, so many that listing them all here would be a headache. Thus, the bible is fallable because if we are to believe the bible literally, this would be impossible. His proof basically comes down to this. (Reading it is a challenge in itself). 1. There is not an eternity of the past of cause and effects. 2. The universe could not cause itself. 3. Don't argue against a quality of a god that is not God of the Bible. 4. There is not an eternity of the past in the supernatural realm. The emphasis has been purposely been put on step three for a reason. As proved earlier, the bible is filled with contradictions. The bible is the "word of God". "God" is infallible. Thus that would equal (by property of equality;transitive property): contradictions = infallible BUT, the definition of a contradiction is basically a direct opposition between things compared and inconsistency. The definition of infallible is exempt from liability to error, as persons, their judgment, or pronouncements. Thus, a contradiction cannot be infallible, making Troy's proof invalid. Step Three states basically that the Christian God is the only god and everyone else's beliefs are invalid. He simply states that his belief system is right and that everyone else is flat-out wrong no matter what they believe. This makes for a narrow-minded view. The last time I remember, intelligence required more than a narrow minded view. The part is that Troy only thinks that his views are correct. He thinks that the bible is the honest truth although he contradicts the golden rule that Jesus said. Luke 6:31 "Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them." On the other hand, religion gives certain values that are needed to achieve some intellectual talents. Instance, Gregor Mendel (who was a priest) needed the patience and tranquility to perform his experiments to prove genetics. Overall, it depends more on the person than their faith. That's not saying though that faith can blind someone. Many of the highest-scoring kids in my class are very strongly Xtian. I'm about in the middle and I'm atheist. That's the same way at my school. All the kids that are in NHS and all that crap are the kind of kids that would go to church. Are they serious about church? I'd doubt it. - TORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 ...For instance, there is this guy named Troy Brooks. Troy loves to troll on forums that don't support his view that "Jesus is the only way" (He has even told me personally that I am going to hell and that I do not know what I am doing) He always goes to his big proof (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm) and links to his always-being-censored forum that simply put is "perfect in proving that God exists". ... Yes, Troy's an idiot. He's been here several times, and he has not improved his argument that last five years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherRainMan Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 ...For instance, there is this guy named Troy Brooks. Troy loves to troll on forums that don't support his view that "Jesus is the only way" (He has even told me personally that I am going to hell and that I do not know what I am doing) He always goes to his big proof (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm) and links to his always-being-censored forum that simply put is "perfect in proving that God exists". ... Yes, Troy's an idiot. He's been here several times, and he has not improved his argument that last five years. He's preaching the same shit over at FSDTD. The part is that he keeps talking about his proof when in reality, its been proven false numerous times, and he keeps going on about how "we keep ignoring it" when all it is is just a bunch of assumptions. If there is a hell, there is a seat saved for him and his judgemental ways. - TORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts