Nihil Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 One of these days I'll stop having odd thoughts.... Think about the fundy image of god: he's close, he's powerful, he's constantly involved with the world via miracles, his motives and desires are easily understood (even though his methods are not ). For each person, there are things they know, and things they don't: the known and unknown. The more you come to know, the farther the unknown seems to become. If no proof for god has been found, then for those who believe in him, he must be in the unknown. As they learn, the unknown is pushed back father, and so is god. For those who know very little of how the universe works, god can be behind every lightning bolt and breeze. But when you know how these things happen, then to believe in god, you push him back to being the one who started these things, rather than the one constantly making them happen. Same with the origin of the universe. God starts out being one who spoke everything into being. But when you learn the proabable theories of the beginning, he then becomes someone who simply got the ball rolling. Once close, god becoms far and distant. One might believe miracles constantly happen, showing god to be powerful and involved. But when one learns of the facts behind 'miracles' and what happens to bring them about, he seems less so. A cancer goes into remission. Is it a miracle, or was it the chemo? A pastor believes god gives him insight and visions. Miracle, or self-deception? And so on. And then there are the miracles which should happen, must happen, but don't. The more one learns of what really happens regarding miracles, the less god seems directly involved. God becomes less powerful, and less involved with the world. God at first seems easy to understand. He wants reciprocated love, and goodness. But the more one learns of his (supposed) actions, his methods, his words, the more discrepancies one finds between them, and that positive image. So, explanations are made, and explored. Satan, different ages, different interpretation of meaning, and so on. But these simply open up new questions, new contradictions. God was once clear, but becomes inscrutable. Is this, then, why fundies hate education, hate science, hate knowledge? Because it takes their close, involved, powerful, easily understood god and makes him distant, weak, and hard to understand? Well, I'm going to work, to try and forget I wrote this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatifidontwantausername? Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 I thought it was very insightful, Nihil. Thank you for posting it, now I am saving this argument to a word.doc. And... I love you. -Jake (Like a friend, not... well you know.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 For those who know very little of how the universe works, god can be behind every lightning bolt and breeze. But when you know how these things happen, then to believe in god, you push him back to being the one who started these things, rather than the one constantly making them happen. Same with the origin of the universe. God starts out being one who spoke everything into being. But when you learn the proabable theories of the beginning, he then becomes someone who simply got the ball rolling. Once close, god becoms far and distant. You just described how I moved from Christian to agnostic to atheist. I just extrapolated from the direction my understanding was taking me and carried it out to its ultimate end. I can't look under every rock in the universe for god, but I do know that the paradigm by which god existed for me has given way as my knowledge has grown. When I used to look up in the sky and wonder about god, now I look up and wonder about the natural universe. There are many things I still don't know, but I now know many things I didn't used to know and god grew smaller and smaller as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Great post Nihil! My path of understanding has been a little different, but I really get what you're saying. I've found that while god has gotten more distant and less directly involved as my understanding of the world has developed, my perception of this being has enlarged as opposed to getting smaller. What has shrunk into pure nothingness was my perception of biblegod, or the christian god, truly being "the one". People can relate to the god of the bible, and that's the dead giveaway for the steaming pile o' bullshit. Biblegod gets tired. Biblegod gets jealous. Biblegod gets angry. Biblegod cheats to win (Jacob wrestling match). Biblegod gets shy (tower of Babel fiasco). Biblegod gets racist. Biblegod gets sexist. Biblegod gets egomaniacal. I could go on an on. The point is, these are all distinctly human flaws. How could a truly supreme being be flawed? And if this being is flawed, how can it presume to ultimately judge our flaws? Assuming this being is truly perfect, we then run into the problem that this being would not judge us based on the fact that we AREN'T perfect, and weren't designed to be so. Biblegod cannot exist. He's too small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Posted July 21, 2005 Author Share Posted July 21, 2005 I thought it was very insightful, Nihil. Thank you for posting it, now I am saving this argument to a word.doc.And... I love you. -Jake (Like a friend, not... well you know.) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You mean, in a non batman and robin way? You are all very kind. Thanks. I was never a fundy, or even dealt with them much. So, I have to wonder at the midset, not having any inside knowledge of it. It seems to me they want "Big and mighty Skygod". But that image, that wish clashes with the reality we live in. So I wonder if there's any frustration or desperation in their belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 God kind of has to be distanced in order to remain worthy of worship. Otherwise, you have a God orchestrating tsunamis and earthquakes and the deaths of children for the sake of some "plan" he has. Much safer to have a God that would like to be all-powerful and all-knowing but refrains from being so for the sake of "free will". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 The fundamentalist view of God is not consistent with a Biblical view of God. I do not believe God knows every future event, and I do not believe that God causes everything to happen. The Bible does not teach those things either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I do not believe God knows every future event, and I do not believe that God causes everything to happen. The Bible does not teach those things either. So you worship a semi-devine seceretary then? How can something labelled "god" not know the future? You find this acceptable because if you didn't you wouldn't be able to trust that stupid book anymore. You'd be forced to admit it was entirely the work of flawed human beings who would naturally see god as being "just like them". You'd be forced to admit that the god of the bible was made in man's image not the other way around. So since you'd rather die than admit the book "ain't it" your mind settles for a less than perfect being representing god for you. And you settle for the anxiety and stress caused by believing in the ultimate judgement of such a lukewarm mercurial being. Feel free to enjoy the psychological company of your egotistical, judgmental, and forever disappointed half-god for the rest of your life (a life which may end up bein all there is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 The fundamentalist view of God is not consistent with a Biblical view of God. I do not believe God knows every future event, and I do not believe that God causes everything to happen. The Bible does not teach those things either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If I wrote a book would you worship me as god then? Idon't know every future event and I don't cause everything to happen. I'm equal to your god but you could at least touch mee, see me, talk to me and get a response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 If I wrote a book would you worship me as god then? Idon't know every future event and I don't cause everything to happen. I'm equal to your god but you could at least touch mee, see me, talk to me and get a response. But you're PINK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Priapus Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Great post Nihil! My path of understanding has been a little different, but I really get what you're saying. I've found that while god has gotten more distant and less directly involved as my understanding of the world has developed, my perception of this being has enlarged as opposed to getting smaller. What has shrunk into pure nothingness was my perception of biblegod, or the christian god, truly being "the one". People can relate to the god of the bible, and that's the dead giveaway for the steaming pile o' bullshit. Biblegod gets tired. Biblegod gets jealous. Biblegod gets angry. Biblegod cheats to win (Jacob wrestling match). Biblegod gets shy (tower of Babel fiasco). Biblegod gets racist. Biblegod gets sexist. Biblegod gets egomaniacal. I could go on an on. The point is, these are all distinctly human flaws. How could a truly supreme being be flawed? And if this being is flawed, how can it presume to ultimately judge our flaws? Assuming this being is truly perfect, we then run into the problem that this being would not judge us based on the fact that we AREN'T perfect, and weren't designed to be so. Biblegod cannot exist. He's too small. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> PAY NO ATTENTION to the man behind the curtain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfunkman Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 The fundamentalist view of God is not consistent with a Biblical view of God. I do not believe God knows every future event, and I do not believe that God causes everything to happen. The Bible does not teach those things either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The bible does state that "god" will send everyone who has ever lived to suffer in "hell" if they do not believe that "jesus" is the "son of god" or "god himself", but thats another argument altogether. I find it rather funny that not many xtians, or anyone else as far as that goes, would want to live the rest of their lives here on earth with a person who tortures people daily. But they would gladly spend an eternity with a "god" who tortures people 24/7 for eternity. Or are you one of those xtians who ignores that part of the bible Jay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfunkman Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 By the way, great post Nihil ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatifidontwantausername? Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Honestly, how many Christians would it affect? They are going through life being told what is acceptable to THINK. You can't argue with control that deeply imbedded into their mind with a frontal assault. -Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 The fundamentalist view of God is not consistent with a Biblical view of God. I do not believe God knows every future event, and I do not believe that God causes everything to happen. The Bible does not teach those things either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok, Jay. But why tell us that? Go tell the fundies. They're the ones being "unbiblical". I'm sure they'll welcome correction from an enlightened and holy-spirit-filled person like yourself. Let us know how it goes. Honestly, how many Christians would it affect? They are going through life being told what is acceptable to THINK. You can't argue with control that deeply imbedded into their mind with a frontal assault. -Jake Word. They won't consider your POV because they aren't allowed to. And that's why I rarely debate a xian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 How can something labelled "god" not know the future?I do not believe that knowing the future is a requirement for divinity. If you believe this, then you have more faith than me. Actually, I believe that it is impossible for the future to be known, but that is a philosophical discussion that I do not have the time to delve into right now.You find this acceptable because if you didn't you wouldn't be able to trust that stupid book anymore. You'd be forced to admit it was entirely the work of flawed human beings who would naturally see god as being "just like them". You'd be forced to admit that the god of the bible was made in man's image not the other way around.I find it acceptable because I believe it is logically impossible for anyone, including God, to know the future exhautively. God may know certain events, but God simply cannot know all future events.So since you'd rather die than admit the book "ain't it" your mind settles for a less than perfect being representing god for you. And you settle for the anxiety and stress caused by believing in the ultimate judgement of such a lukewarm mercurial being.hehe...well, I will repeat some of my other beliefs...I do not accept the Doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy, and I do not accept the Doctrine of the Trinity. I also do not believe that perfection, by definition, includes knowing all future events.Feel free to enjoy the psychological company of your egotistical, judgmental, and forever disappointed half-god for the rest of your life (a life which may end up bein all there is).Thank you for the invitation, but I have always been curious why these discussions quickly devolve into name calling...I mean honestly, you do not know me, and you really have no idea what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Ok, Jay. But why tell us that? Go tell the fundies. They're the ones being "unbiblical". I'm sure they'll welcome correction from an enlightened and holy-spirit-filled person like yourself. Let us know how it goes.I didn't start this thread. I merely added my $.02 to it. Sorry it offended you. And I have talked to some fundies who have no interest in carrying on a logical discussion. Fortunately, I do not associate with many fundies, so I don't have to spend much time dealing with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 The more I know, the more I know how much I don't know. So my need for a God who knows all I don't know, grows in proportion with my gowing knowledge. -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 The more I know, the more I know how much I don't know. So my need for a God who knows all I don't know, grows in proportion with my gowing knowledge. -Dennis <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why? Would it really be so terrible if there were things that no-one (yet) knows? Why do you need to have someone know these things for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 The more I know, the more I know how much I don't know. So my need for a God who knows all I don't know, grows in proportion with my gowing knowledge. -Dennis <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would think a good library would work better than some invisible friend that you think gives you answers to life, the universe, and everything. Speaking of invisible friends.....would you tell a child to grow up when thier invisible friend Poopsie talks to them and tells them to do things or act in a certain way? Say the kid is 18 and still belives in Poopsie and acts as though they have a relationship with this invisible friend? What if this kid said Poopsie tells them the things they do't know and provides hidden knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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