Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Is it possible to separate religion from humanity?


NotBlinded

Recommended Posts

This is a thought I posted in a thread in the Rants forum and was asked to start a new topic. It was until very, very recently I felt that religion was a horrible thing that needed to be eliminated. Hell, look at my screen name not blinded by the blight. I saw religion as a blight on humanity for pete's sake. Now, I now longer despise religion because I see it as a human need. You cannot take away a life-sustaining force (mental) and expect people to be happy and go on about their life. The void must be filled with something. What, I don't know. Maybe more compassion? Anyway, here is the post. I edited it slightly.

 

 

I am having a hard time trying to understand how one can separate the religion from the person (please bear with me). Religion would not exist were it not for humanity. It has no life of its own. I can only imagine what horrific circumstances that must have surrounded the people that wrote books for ancient religions or even felt the need to do so. It was a time of war, where lives meant nothing to outsiders. So, I feel, there was a need for a god that would fight fire with fire. Most people will notice how the trend is changing from a waring god to a loving god as times get easier for most people.

 

There is an underlying need that people have, call it innate if you will, to call upon the supernatural (god) when there is no relief from the natural (humanity). So, eliminating religion from humanity is not the answer. That would be like putting a bandaid on a cancerous sore. People need to address what is causing the need and try to find a way to help people that feel there is no help to be had, therefore addressing the cause of the sore. Humanity has not found a way to do that just yet. We have come a long way (hence the loving god reference above) to help people overcome circumstances that they never would have before. Maybe this will lead to an even greater trend to a personal, loving god. More spiritual than religious.

 

We are becoming more compasionate and do put value on human life to where other's situations are more bearable than they would have been 100's of years ago. Religion is born from people's desire to know that their life has meaning and worth and when people cannot provide that, they must find something that will.

 

I don't know how to cure the ills of the world other than trying to find a way to help those that view their situations as hopeless (and I'm not sure how to even do that).

 

So when we curse and hate religions, we are demeaning the people that follow it, and need it, because it is their ray of sunshine during a very stormy life. I can find no way to separate the two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea. I don't hate all religions. We have all seen first hand that jesus is very comforting for good people. It's the assholes who love organized religion that seeks to enslave others.

 

Since I've moved, Ive met different kinds of christians. The nicest christians seem to have one thing in common that I can see so far. They have no pastor. The attitudes of christians that impress me the most are those who make religion a personel relationship and have rejected church. I begrudgingly like some of these folks.

 

But here in the northwest some people can be persuaded to leave religion one way or another to different degrees. Ive seen it first hand. I don't really know how it is back east.

 

I think people are at thier best (the kindly cherry pickers) when they aren't book worshiping sheep regardless if they hold jesus as thier god. Nothing is ever perfect. Seeds of doubt can either do nothing, make certain kinds of people unsatisfied with churchianity, or a few become apostates.

 

Change is a slow process some times, but it takes a few people who ar willing to push a little. A better tomorrow is a better tommorow whether I am alive to enjoy it all or not.

 

I won't be tolerant of intolerance. I am intolerant of bigotry and chauvinism. The bible is bigoted and its aim is to conquer or condemn, but people who have rejected churchianity aren't the problem so much as the book worshiping sheep.

 

Spirituality seems to be a need for the majority though that for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I responded to this in the other thread.  I'm not going to copy and paste to avoid redundancy and also not to leak out a sensitive topic into another thread.

 

I DO think religion has a life of its own outside of people in a sense.

 

A religion gets started by people, but then it grows and grows and grows until more and more organization is needed.  The religion does take on a life of it's own IMO.

I understand what you are saying and do agree, but it is people that are giving it life. I still have hope that the trend to degrade religion to a personal relationship will continue as long as people continue the humanity efforts. That is of course without the one's offering them solace at the cost of conversion...if you know what I mean.

 

There are many many Christians who truly believe in Christianity...but they aren't bad people.  Even if we think their religion is bad.  How can that be so?

 

Many of them are victims of brainwashing/indoctrination/fear, as we once were.

 

Many of them feel compelled to believe certain things about their religion and the bible which are harmful to society but they as individuals are too afraid to break free and don't know another way.

Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more and what we do here is great for getting the information out to those that have the desire to read what we say. Also, I think that they don't realize the evils in their religion. I didn't. Education about the evils and absurdities are necessary in order for them to understand the side effects of what they believe. I was very much against people of other faiths and anybody that did not represent what I thought a chrisitian should be. I never thought about it being wrong. Now I know how wrong I was. I just worry about taking away something from somebody that needs it so bad, but with education they may become the tolerant believer. That would be good...

 

The religion's precepts itself cause harm to people.  Yes there were individual humans who got the ball rolling, there are individual humans who keep the ball rolling.  But then there are the people who we CAN separate from the religion itself.

Indeed I do understand that. What I am trying to say is that if there is any hope of ridding society of these precepts, the need that is present in most people to believe in something has to be addressed. I think it is gradually happening with the trend to separate from the religion and become more spiritual and I think (my hypothesis :grin: ) that this is happening due to the increasing humanity of people. The more humane we become, the less likely we are to view any waring god as good.

 

Being associated with a group considered wrong or bad doesnt' make you wrong or bad.  Life isn't that black and white.

Life is very rarely black and white, but it is often viewed that way by people who adhere to christianity. There is another thread here where a christian keeps proclaiming that life was either created or spontaneaously generated. There are more choices than that. I think we basically agree, I'm just throwing out another opinion. A gray area if you will. :wicked:

 

This is why I can hate a religion and NOT hate the members of the religion...because by this point...most of the members of said religion, are just victims of a form of stockholm syndrome.  Yes they spread and perpetuate the pain, but they don't mean to.  It's not their intent in most cases to be malicious.

How right you are. We often accuse christians that come here of being salad bar christians. I think it is wonderful that they choose only the good parts...that shows they are thinking and most here don't have a problem with christians like that. Maybe we should fight fire with fire and start a new religion...one of tolerance. That way people don't have to give up what they desire and need, but they can be more humane.

 

You can criticize Ideas and beliefs without necessarily attacking the people who hold those ideas and beliefs.  People's minds can be changed...but even when they can't...it's not so black and white.

This is where I have a difficult time. I know what you are saying, but to the ones that hold those beliefs, there is no difference. Religion is their way of life...it IS their life and to attack what they hold dear is to attack them (in their minds). Maybe the attack should come in the form of compassion and trying to get them to understand. Attacking only makes one defensive.

 

Thanks Zoe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think we should try to "take away" something people find comforting.  Like i said in the other thread even though I don't agree with it, i'm not saying: "Hey everybody fall in line with Zoe." 

 

I've got my own spiritual beliefs, not a member of a religion, not anymore, but I still have beliefs.  Those beliefs make sense to me and order the world for me and give me some degree of comfort.  I wouldn't want someone to take them away from me.  although they really couldn't.  YOu can't take away a belief...you can only open someone's eyes to other possibilities...if their mind can't wrap around your possibilities and accept them, it just can't.  It may be frustrating but it's the way it is.

 

My mother is a fundie christian.  Early on I wanted her to deconvert.  But then I realized that although she doesn't see the darker sides of her religion that it brings her comfort and peace and she's been in it so long, that to try to remove her from it would cause her a lot of psychological pain.  If she doesn't make the choice, I'm hurting her as much as being indoctrinated into the religion in the first place hurt me.  So it's not ok.  She's 50, she was raised in it, she's deeply ingrained, she's a lifer.

 

I have to accept that.  I also have had to take the "responsible parent" role between us on the issue of religion.  I have had to firmly but gently set the boundaries in order for our relationship to flourish and grow in order for her to practice her religion in peace and me not to be bothered with it.

 

I agree with much of what yall have said here, but not everything. So what? I don't see that there isn't room for many different kinds of aproaches.

 

From time to time share your experiences and ideas. This is needed. Necessary. Useful to everyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea. I don't hate all religions. We have all seen first hand that jesus is very comforting for good people. It's the assholes who love organized religion that seeks to enslave others.

 

Since I've moved, Ive met different kinds of christians. The nicest christians seem to have one thing in common that I can see so far. They have no pastor. The attitudes of christians that impress me the most are those who make religion a personel relationship and have rejected church. I begrudgingly like some of these folks.

 

But here in the northwest some people can be persuaded to leave religion one way or another to different degrees. Ive seen it first hand. I don't really know how it is back east.

 

I think people are at thier best (the kindly cherry pickers) when they aren't book worshiping sheep regardless if they hold jesus as thier god. Nothing is ever perfect. Seeds of doubt can either do nothing, make certain kinds of people unsatisfied with churchianity, or a few become apostates.

 

Change is a slow process some times, but it takes a few people who ar willing to push a little. A better tomorrow is a better tommorow whether I am alive to enjoy it all or not.

 

I won't be tolerant of intolerance. I am intolerant of bigotry and chauvinism. The bible is bigoted and its aim is to conquer or condemn, but people who have rejected churchianity aren't the problem so much as the book worshiping sheep.

 

Spirituality seems to be a need for the majority though that for sure.

You know, that is strange that you said change is a slow process because I was thinking of putting that in my post. Change is slow, if not, it's a revolution and people don't react kindly to revolutions.

 

Recently I have even encouraged someone to hold on to their faith because they need it so desperately. It would just tear my heart out to think that I took something away from someone that needed it so much. I just can't do that.

 

I agree with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, that is strange that you said change is a slow process because I was thinking of putting that in my post.  Change is slow, if not, it's a revolution and people don't react kindly to revolutions. 

 

Recently I have even encouraged someone to hold on to their faith because they need it so desperately.  It would just tear my heart out to think that I took something away from someone that needed it so much.  I just can't do that. 

 

I agree with you.

Well. I think its silly to stomp out religion so fast. Just reduce the numbers of xers if possible for a needed balance in your area. Call your own shots and learn from it. Thats what I try to do.

 

I agree with much of what yall have said here, but not everything. So what? I don't see that there isn't room for many different kinds of aproaches.

 

From time to time share your experiences and ideas. This is needed. Necessary. Useful to everyone.

 

My wet dream would be for the northwest to import folks who aren't Islamic or Christians. The more diversity the better. For balance. America needs different peoples to move in for a better balance and less stagnation. What better way to keep fundies in check by thier exposer to diverse peoples? Chauvinism in culture and religion is for tards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see 3 basic reasons humanity will never be completely free of religion.

 

1. Community – As I stated in my testimony humans are a communal beast that seeks like. We need the feeling of being part of something, even if at times that means giving up some of our individuality. This is part of our greatest success and one of our greatest failures. In addition, many humans are also followers. Following whatever is the common thought of the time. Without these members of society, we would live in constant state of anarchy as each individual tried to assert their dominance. But with that many followers in our midst, leaders use popular ideas to control the masses.

 

2. Power – Ability to use ideas to control the populous. Religion is excellent at this. Look at GWB.

 

3. Meaning – From what I have seen in my life it is common for people to seek some form of meaning to their lives. Atheism can be depressing for some. To them making humanity just a freak chance on this odd little ball of rock is like saying they have no meaning for their lives and no point to going on. I never have seen it this way, but others have said as much. Order and meaning, a semblance of understanding hard to gain in atheism but right there on top for some theists. I see life as my chance to be, that is enough meaning for me, but not for everyone.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest aexapo

One day, religion will end. How?

 

Scenario #1 (extinction) -- the day the human species becomes extinct through our own actions (global warming, nuclear war, etc.) or through natural events (the next ice age, polar shifts, catastrophic asteroid impact, etc.).

 

Scenario #2 (social evolution) -- the moment a "critical mass" of humans begin to trust reason and science over mythology and bullshit. As of now, most humans trust Jesus Christ, Allah, and Yah-weh -- so, we're SOL for now.

 

Scenario #3 (big brother) -- following a global catastrophic "culture war" between Christianity and Islam (probably with a US/Russia alliance vs. the Islamic and Arabic states). This will be the Christian Reich's "Apocalypse," and when Christ doesn't descend upon Jerusalem -- and global economic collapse ensues (probably d/t our nuking the countries that supply the oil for us to attack them -- this is essentially why the Japanese lost WWII -- by attacking us, they were attacking their fuel supplier) . . . then the resulting secular takeover (the equal and opposite reaction) will outlaw religion PROC-style (if indeed it's not the PROC that IS the ruling government afterwards).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not against all religions. Just two. + and (*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think we should try to "take away" something people find comforting.  Like i said in the other thread even though I don't agree with it, i'm not saying: "Hey everybody fall in line with Zoe." 

 

I've got my own spiritual beliefs, not a member of a religion, not anymore, but I still have beliefs.  Those beliefs make sense to me and order the world for me and give me some degree of comfort.  I wouldn't want someone to take them away from me.  although they really couldn't.  YOu can't take away a belief...you can only open someone's eyes to other possibilities...if their mind can't wrap around your possibilities and accept them, it just can't.  It may be frustrating but it's the way it is.

I admire you lady.

 

My mother is a fundie christian.  Early on I wanted her to deconvert.  But then I realized that although she doesn't see the darker sides of her religion that it brings her comfort and peace and she's been in it so long, that to try to remove her from it would cause her a lot of psychological pain.  If she doesn't make the choice, I'm hurting her as much as being indoctrinated into the religion in the first place hurt me.  So it's not ok.  She's 50, she was raised in it, she's deeply ingrained, she's a lifer.

 

I have to accept that.  I also have had to take the "responsible parent" role between us on the issue of religion.  I have had to firmly but gently set the boundaries in order for our relationship to flourish and grow in order for her to practice her religion in peace and me not to be bothered with it.

My mother was too. She died Memorial Day of this year. It is at this time that I so strongly realized why people need their faith. Even my brother, a staunch atheist, said, "It's times like this that I wished I believed in a god." I feel most of humanity has this desire and I strongly believe that it is an evolutionary adaptation that has come about to enable us to deal with our mortality and suffering. An anxiety reducer...

 

My sister is a staunch believer and there is nothing in the world (now) that I would do to make her question her faith. Maybe what I realized is that I need to be a little more compasionate in the way I view religious people. I am not saying you or anyone else didn't know this, but this has really just came as an epiphany to me and actually I feel better already!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see 3 basic reasons humanity will never be completely free of religion.

 

1. Community – As I stated in my testimony humans are a communal beast that seeks like. We need the feeling of being part of something, even if at times that means giving up some of our individuality. This is part of our greatest success and one of our greatest failures. In addition, many humans are also followers. Following whatever is the common thought of the time. Without these members of society, we would live in constant state of anarchy as each individual tried to assert their dominance. But with that many followers in our midst, leaders use popular ideas to control the masses.

 

2. Power – Ability to use ideas to control the populous. Religion is excellent at this. Look at GWB.

 

3. Meaning – From what I have seen in my life it is common for people to seek some form of meaning to their lives. Atheism can be depressing for some. To them making humanity just a freak chance on this odd little ball of rock is like saying they have no meaning for their lives and no point to going on.  I never have seen it this way, but others have said as much. Order and meaning, a semblance of understanding hard to gain in atheism but right there on top for some theists.  I see life as my chance to be, that is enough meaning for me, but not for everyone.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Hey...that is worth a whole lot more than 2 cents! I will admit that it is hard for me at times to be an atheist. I have even looked into spirits and ghosts as being some sort of life after death. A neverending energy source transformed into balls of light! But there is no good evidence for that and is hard for me to accept no matter how much I want to. I want to say that my mom will be there watching when my daughter accomplishing things as she grows, but no matter how hard I want to believe, I just can't. My mind won't let me. So here I am...more compassionate that I was before...but an atheist all the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One day, religion will end. How?

 

Scenario #1 (extinction) -- the day the human species becomes extinct through our own actions (global warming, nuclear war, etc.) or through natural events (the next ice age, polar shifts, catastrophic asteroid impact, etc.).

 

Scenario #2 (social evolution) -- the moment a "critical mass" of humans begin to trust reason and science over mythology and bullshit.  As of now, most humans trust Jesus Christ, Allah, and Yah-weh -- so, we're SOL for now.

 

Scenario #3 (big brother) -- following a global catastrophic "culture war" between Christianity and Islam (probably with a US/Russia alliance vs. the Islamic and Arabic states).  This will be the Christian Reich's "Apocalypse," and when Christ doesn't descend upon Jerusalem -- and global economic collapse ensues (probably d/t our nuking the countries that supply the oil for us to attack them -- this is essentially why the Japanese lost WWII -- by attacking us, they were attacking their fuel supplier) . . . then the resulting secular takeover (the equal and opposite reaction) will outlaw religion PROC-style (if indeed it's not the PROC that IS the ruling government afterwards).

Ouch! Well, lets hope for #2. But, I would like to add to that critical mass being a humane critical mass that can replace the god desire with human understanding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you NBBTB,

 

Having been an atheist as long as I have, I came to understand that my thought process is not shared by most people in society. Atheism cam be a difficult path, but you have to find your own meaning. I have thought long and hard on what I am about to add. I do think it is relevant to this discussion though.

 

Perception

Each human being has a unique perspective. Carried with in them is the catalog of all their experiences. No two people can carry the exact same set of experiences, therefore each person brings a different set of preconceived notions to bear when looking at a subject. Look at it like this, a book is just ink and paper, it has no meaning as it sit on the desk gathering dust. I pick it up and read it, juxtaposing all of my experiences and beliefs into the words. Somewhere between me and the book meaning appears. This is only my interpretation of the book. The next person to read the book will have a different perspective on its meaning. Both are valid. Many things affect perspective. Upbringing, social standing, intellectual pursuits, attitude, peers, and everything else we come into contact with on a daily basis. Perception is the shell we build and look at the world through. It is our rose colored glasses.

 

Meaning

I really believe that all humans seek some type of meaning to their lives. Even me, the atheist, seeks meaning and reason. We are herded according to our perspective into like minded groups. They give order and a semblance of meaning. Sadly, most people are sheep, and have been throughout history. Religion is the most successful of these sheep control methods. They use the human need for meaning to control people.

Meaning is tied to perspective. If you are raised in a Islamic home, you are more likely to find your meaning in that faith. Same with Christians, Catholics, and most others. Now you always have a few who reject the dominant faith or ideology, but most will follow along. It is more secure to be part of the herd than to be on your own.

 

Truth

This is the most difficult of the three. I am a moral relativist in many ways, just a good thing to know. Truth is not as solid a thing as many would like to believe. It, like meaning, is dependant on perspective. I can look at a fact, 68 killed in Iraq bombing. To me the truth is that we have a serious problem on our hands, they are fighting a war of liberation (from their perspective of course) and people seeking freedom do not always fear death. Another person may read this fact and the truth to them is that these are people who have no respect for their “liberators” and should be bombed off the map for these killings. One fact, two truths. Both are valid.

 

Religion is an extension of these ideas to me. Often based on the perspective of the individual, gives meaning, and offers a solid truth to adhere to. For so many people it is the easiest way to be comfortable in their lives.

 

I am being verbose today, better watch it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DG,

 

Those are words I can take to heart and agree with so much. I think #3 to be the most problematic and religion offers a way to overcome this with the notion of absolute truth. The problem is is that they all offer absolute truth proving that it is not absolute. I wrestle with wanting to think there is an absolute truth. After all, gravity absolutely exists and no one can disagree that it does. They only disagree about the origins of it. Maybe it's just undiscovered???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ever heard the term, "suspend your disbelief"?

 

I feel many people of faith do this for comfort, for meaning, and yes, for truth. They know it is unlikely, improbable or the like, but to them it does not need concrete explanations. To them it lifts their heart, and gives them a concrete set of standards to judge themselves and their neighbors by.

 

One of my favorite sayings, one I have posted here at least twice, is…

 

Look for only the evil in the world and you will find only evil. Look for only the good and you will find some everyday. Know that both exist and you may find peace.

 

From my perspective this has great meaning. Another person may look on it as trite and just down right naïve. Many people of faith looks for sin or evil in all people. They only see this evil, never understanding that even the most heinous prick has been nice to someone in his life. Or with the likes of me, they would not acknowledge that I could act in a “good” way. It must be biblegod working though me. Only it can be “good”.

 

I can accept that other people needs this lift in their shoe (nod to George Carlin) and if it makes them happy, I do not begrudge them their happiness. But tolerate my rejection of the “truth” as others see it or I will scream from the hill tops. Not a pretty sight by the way.

 

I wish I could fix the world and give people the confidence to go forth in the world without the lift, but sadly I can not. I can only hold out hope for the future.

 

It is getting late in a long work day and I may be rambling incoherently, if so I am sorry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have goosebumps from your post. I can learn a lot from you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WARNING: Excessive flattery may cause head swelling and a over developed sense of importance.

 

 

Thank you NBBTB.

:thanks:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The void must be filled with something. What, I don't know. Maybe more compassion? Anyway, here is the post. I edited it slightly.

 

Well, most people seem to need to have some sort of social group that they belong to, even if it's just a book club or something. That would fill the social/belonging need that religion fills. Also, many people have a strong desire to fit in. Belonging to a club could help.

 

Now, seeking meaning is a personal thing and will be different for everyone. I personally find meaning in writing and knowing that other people enjoy it. So I have that to focus on. I also find meaning in doing charity work when I can, which is something everyone can do. Just donate the hour of time that you would have spent in church, and volunteer instead. Or donate the money you would've spent on an offering in church to a charity like the Red Cross or something. Either way, at least you're doing something to help alleviate the world's problems. If every single Christian would donate $5 to a real charity instead of church, it would go a long way to making a dent in world poverty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not against all religions. Just two.  +  and (*

 

Very true.

Like I said more than once on these forums, religion itself is not the enemy. It is those religions that can far too easily be abused for selfish motives and/or have a (supposedly divine) commandment to actively convert unbelievers. These are the enemy.

 

And of course, the most obnoxious examples of the "evil religions" are indeed the christian death cult and islam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, most people seem to need to have some sort of social group that they belong to, even if it's just a book club or something.  That would fill the social/belonging need that religion fills.  Also, many people have a strong desire to fit in.  Belonging to a club could help. 

 

Now, seeking meaning is a personal thing and will be different for everyone.  I personally find meaning in writing and knowing that other people enjoy it.  So I have that to focus on.  I also find meaning in doing charity work when I can, which is something everyone can do.  Just donate the hour of time that you would have spent in church, and volunteer instead.  Or donate the money you would've spent on an offering in church to a charity like the Red Cross or something.  Either way, at least you're doing something to help alleviate the world's problems.  If every single Christian would donate $5 to a real charity instead of church, it would go a long way to making a dent in world poverty.

I agree with you. But (damn buts!), I was really speaking of a deeper void. The one religion fills when one is hopeless and barely surviving...maybe even a prolonged life-threatening situation. When all hopes of rescue by humanity has been abandoned what is there left to cling to? Like you said, donating to charity goes a long way in eliminating some of these problems. People could rely on people for salvation. Religion seems to be a coping mechanism that allows people to accept their situations and when that goes away, they need something that will actually improve their situation, not something that teaches them to learn to live with it. I know not everyone can be saved but surely enough can be that will return the favor and compassion will grow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The one religion fills when one is hopeless and barely surviving...maybe even a prolonged life-threatening situation. When all hopes of rescue by humanity has been abandoned what is there left to cling to?

 

Love. Seriously. I know it sounds cheesy, but yeah. You need to find a family member or friend or something that you care about more than anything in the world. People join religions at first because they're either brainwashed into them from birth, or are gullible enough and have enough low self-esteem to have the need for it. Christianity capitalizes on low self-esteem. If people felt confident enough about themselves, they wouldn't feel the need to belong to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.