SOIL Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 OK, for the title of this thread, mainly to get your attention - I used a brief snippet taken from an hour long audio talk by Ravi Zacharias. A while back someone started laughing when I mentioned something about Christian thought processes standing in the "marketplace of ideas". I recently learned The MacLauren Institute uses that phrase in it's self-definition. One of the MP3 files they provide a link to (on this page) can be located by searching for this: March 8th, 2002 - Ravi Zacharias Christian Apologetics in the 21st Century ... For those aspiring intellectual atheists who desire to "know thine enemy" - I'm thinking you may want to listen to some of what one of those so called dishonest apologists has said to Christian people who seek to hear him. -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I am listening to it right now SOIL. Though I am a visual learner. I prefer to read instead of listen. My mom damaged my psyche to such a degree that I think I can rightly blame her loud mouth for my learning disability. hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted July 22, 2005 Author Share Posted July 22, 2005 Thanks for taking the time to listen D_C! It looks like you are currently entering a post. So I reckon, I'll wait and see what you have to say - before I say anyhing more. -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I think his worries of how people are adjusting to modern living with god getting smaller and smaller in peoples minds and lives is a valid concern. I also see that he talks about the suffering of people abroad. Science tells us what is happening but not how we should feel about what is happening is a good point. I do not have the knowlege base to adress some of the points he touches on. I don't know what philosophies that non religious would have to bring to the table. Since my knowlege base in general is so limited I want to learn more of this. However from my perspective building on reason and empathy to objectively solve moral dilemas in a way that is empathic is the best method. I'll criticize Ravi Zacharias when I get back. I'm gonna go to the store because I need pop and candy. I'll be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 SOIL"A while back someone started laughing when I mentioned something about Christian thought processes standing in the "marketplace of ideas". Ideas are something that potentialy can be improved upon, accepted 'as is' because they can be demonstrated to be useful, or rejected entirely because they can not be demonstrated to be useful. Certitude in the Christian mythology is not ideas, it is untestable "Truth". God refuses to be tested and he gives no reasons as to why certain actions are not good in some cases. The market place of ideas should be about finding what really works and there is no room for untestable certitude and blind faith. In the market place of ideas we must have an honest confidence in ideas and there is no room for taboos that are wanting in reason and empathy of others who's world view is completely different. Christianity has an outragiously poor track record in the market place of ideas as the market place of ideas should welcome anyone with any kind of idea or opinion. We must accept and use the whole bibles teachings without cherry picking which is a no no in the market place of ideas, because we must be free to discard what does not work as good as other ideas. Again, ideas must be shared, questioned and then demonstrated in how effective they are. Logic must be used and not blind faith. It is dishonest to expect me to buy a product that is useless, or that is inferior to other products. Same with ideas. When sharing ideas based on biblical teachings sooner or later some biblical answers to lifes problems will be demonstrated to not work. The bible does not address very important moral dilemas sometimes either. The bible is not a method for doing anything in the real world. At best it offers solutions to no brainer problems. Now, your man Ravi Zacharias, he can not claim all his ideas for the lord as he never once quoted scripture. Christian ideas should be entirely biblical be'ens that that book is the cornerstone of christianity. His ideas can not be shown to be uniquely xian. So he has no right to use his ideas as a means to show how useful the bible teachings are to the world who have thier own culture and religion. Always remember that I judge the bibles teachings. That is how I judge xianity first and formost. Does your man really have anything new to bring to the market place of ideas that other cultures don't allready have for themselves? Can the lord offer anything original or truly useful to the market place of ideas? No xian philosopher can speak for the lord by adding to or subtracting from scripture. Apologists lie to themselves and everyone if not just simply lying to everyone. I maintain that the bible is the antithesis to the market place of ideas if people are not willing to or allowed to question and test scriptural teachings to see if they are any longer revelant to today. Does the bible offer any original solutions to problems? I do not think so. Does the bibles teachings offer solutions to real problems. I don't think so. The bibles teachings offer only solutions to no brainer problems at best. What solution does scripture give to a battered wife who just can't convince her husband to stop beating her in front of her children? Beating your wife is imoral. Beating your wife in front of your kids doubly so. I will give you time to think on this one before putting another moral dilema to you. As far as Ravi Zacharias goes, I think his concerns are valid ones. Some of what he says is reasonable. Some of it. Yet he can not show how the bibles teachings are superior to anything an atheist could bring to the table. He can not show how everyone needs a god to fill the void either. One size does not fit all. Many people if they deconverted from xianity and became self absorbed and negative nihilists ( inept nihilists) would not be that way because of no longer having a god. They would be that way because the bible never realy taught them real morality. The bible is rubbish in that regard. Inept nihilists are deficient in empathy not god belief. god belief is irelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I maintain that the bible is the antithesis to the market place of ideas if people are not willing to or allowed to question and test scriptural teachings to see if they are any longer revelant to today. Does the bible offer any original solutions to problems? I do not think so. Does the bibles teachings offer solutions to real problems. I don't think so. The bibles teachings offer only solutions to no brainer problems at best. Agree entirely. We should be able to use the scientific method with Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 (Was I a little unecessarily longwinded? I'm more of a math person. Any criticizem definatley welcomed. ) Yes. This is why I say apologists are dishonest. They are selling a defective product. Even lying to oneself is dishonest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 For those aspiring intellectual atheists who desire to "know thine enemy".... Was it the atheists who declared everyone else as being their 'enemy' in the first place? I might listen to the file later. I don't really know for sure yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kay Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Are you going to provide a transcript this time, Dennis? DC's coments of the auidio sounds interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Are you going to provide a transcript this time, Dennis? DC's coments of the auidio sounds interesting. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think this Ravi Zacharias feller is pretty interesting. I am so used to hell fire and brimstone kind of preaching. Preaching that never touches on how we should help folks. I come from white trash. ( I'm sure this fact comes as a total suprise to most folks. hehe! ) I disagree with a few things....with respect. He'll never sell me on a god or jesus though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 dogmatically_challenged, I really appreciate your honesty! -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Yea. Your welcome SOIL. I figure I owe you a little. My sparkling personality realy shines through these forms a lot. Today I just decided to be a human being for a change. I have no idea how long this will last though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 I'm not sure (yet) if I really want to take the time to get into specifics about that particular talk. I think I mainly just wanted to show you folks that page, where there are links to many MP3 files where you can hear quite a few Christians (and at least one non-Christian) talking about some of the same subjects that are often discussed here. I feel like many times folks here do an apparently skillful job of knocking down straw-men - that is, characterizations of folks who are often very unlike the Christian people I respect. Maybe that's why I haven't felt any really urgent need to "cave in" to the supposed "better logic" I read here? -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 ...Today I just decided to be a human being for a change.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> D_C, We are all human beings here! Honesty is a wonderful thing to see in any human being! (sometimes it's hard to come by - at least there are times when I stuggle with it - just ask Pitchu, Kay, Cerise, etc.... <wink>) -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Well I'm sorry I couldn't cite specifically everything your man said in the audio. Also I think my mind resists sermons. It's automatic and instictive reaction, but I did my best and actualy liked some parts...even though I'm not exactly in agreement with his solutions. I'll read specifically what you refer me to if you give me links. I'll break it down with criticism and praise as I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 Well I'm sorry I couldn't cite specifically everything your man said in the audio. Also I think my mind resists sermons. It's automatic and instictive reaction, but I did my best and actualy liked some parts...even though I'm not exactly in agreement with his solutions. I'll read specifically what you refer me to if you give me links. I'll break it down with criticism and praise as I see it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> D_C, That is certainly fair enough! Have you read what is at that link about hell which I posted in another thread? I consider that an example of where I think some folks here like to bash on things they say we Christians are saying, when in reality, the most respected Christians actually say quite different things. -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 Well I'm sorry I couldn't cite specifically everything your man said in the audio. ... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> D_C, No probleemo, I know it can take a lot of time to try to transcibe even small portions of something that big! I probably ought to point links at more written articles, rather than audios, I guess - for instance - here is a very small piece found on Ravi's website: The Dying Art of Thinking or a bit longer one: Chapter one of Ravi's book Recapture the Wonder -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 D_C, That is certainly fair enough! Have you read what is at that link about hell which I posted in another thread? I consider that an example of where I think some folks here like to bash on things they say we Christians are saying, when actually the most respected Christians actually say quite different things. -Dennis <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well...no. But I will and I will give you my opinion sunday. I am crashing from a caffien and sugar right now. Thinking processes slowing down right now. I have to go on a 10 mile hike for PE class tommorow at 8:00 am pacific time. I can see why you like Ravi Zacharias. He does however go against my beliefs on moral issues though on a few things. Especially at the end of the audio. I believe in morality that is logic/empathic. god must tell me why something is sin and not "just because I say so" or " I don't like it it pisses me off". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I listened to the file. I still don't understand how this guy thinks that people can regain their humanity by embracing a religion that doesn't exactly go into detail on how to be a good and wholesome human. He keeps ripping on post-modernism as if it is the problem instead of it being a result of a problem that went unrecognized, or, better yet, uncontested in the past. I mean, what better way to explain the supposed "problem" of "moral relativism" than to actually point the finger at the multitudes of denominations that flood a society with there version of morality? (I.e. churches) BTW- I actually started to transcribe this file so that other could join in on the conversation. I got about twelve minutes into the program before I said, "To heck with this!" I just don't have the patience to transcribe. It is a pain in the butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I listened to the file. I still don't understand how this guy thinks that people can regain their humanity by embracing a religion that doesn't exactly go into detail on how to be a good and wholesome human. He keeps ripping on post-modernism as if it is the problem instead of it being a result of a problem that went unrecognized, or, better yet, uncontested in the past. I mean, what better way to explain the supposed "problem" of "moral relativism" than to actually point the finger at the multitudes of denominations that flood a society with there version of morality? (I.e. churches) BTW- I actually started to transcribe this file so that other could join in on the conversation. I got about twelve minutes into the program before I said, "To heck with this!" I just don't have the patience to transcribe. It is a pain in the butt. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have a nihilist friend that would object to the audio. hehe. I mean, what better way to explain the supposed "problem" of "moral relativism" than to actually point the finger at the multitudes of denominations that flood a society with there version of morality? (I.e. churches) We can only be in agreement more often if we can empathize with others world view. What can be shown to cause damage is the only fair way to decide the no no's than religious no no's, as the world is so different when it comes to superstitious taboos. Xian superstition can not be demonstrated to be less bullshit than other religions superstitious taboos. Not if its all equally bullshit. America will become more and more diverse as years go by. Watch out xers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I have a nihilist friend that would object to the audio. hehe. Well, that would be understandable, from his point of view, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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