The Devil vs. God

[whatifidontwantausername?]

Hello, this is something I made for my website and I was wondering if anyone had some advice to... spoof it up?

 

I often hear at churches or from televangelists that God is loving, caring, like a father while Satan is spiteful, deceitful, and a traitor. Perhaps the Christian Satan is all of these things but let’s also take a look at God, just so that we are not being biased to one or the other. If you are an easily offended Christian and do not want any doubt to come into you mind then I would suggest that you stop reading now.

 

Now, I will go into the easiest part to attack so that I can build up to the grand finale. Christians believe, for the most part, that God made Hell. He also made Satan. I want you to stay with me now, because I am going to use logic right here. If God is all powerful and all knowing then God would have known that Satan would turn on him, deceive Adam and Eve causing them to fall from grace, and that he would deceive millions of people. Why would God allow this to happen? If he was all powerful he could have went back through time and kept himself from making Satan, and if he was all knowing he would have not made Satan in the first place to save humans all the pain and torment in the world.

 

Hard to wrap your mind around, is it not? So by the mere presence of Satan we can view God as impotent and fallible. If he is both then why call him God. If he is either then God is evil.

 

“But God will save people if they only ask him too!” is an argument I hear from a LOT of Christians. Let me ask you this, though, would you trust a serial killer who seems to revel in the blood of those who disagree with them or a dictator who rules with an iron fist?

 

Now we get into the stuff I have to get out my beat up old Bible to research. The absurdity starts in Genesis where God says he is going to kill every living thing that he has made(Genesis 7:4). Allegedly this is because all of humanity had became wicked and worthy of being punished because they did not follow as he said (Genesis 6:5)(If you wish to note that Genesis 6:6 says that God was sorry he ever made man you will see that he is NOT all knowing or all powerful for the reasons given above.) Please note that ALL humans aside from Noah’s family were killed, including women, children, and infants. If someone were to go through, say, New York City and kill all people who had committed a sin against their god we would call them insane. This happens many places in the Bible, not just this one occurrence. (Sodom and Gomorrah, Moses’ plagues, a nice plague at the end of Exodus 32:35, a smaller but still horrid act in Numbers 16:20-25, and there are many more. [Don’t e-mail me for a list of these. Show some initiative and look them up, I have more important things to do])

 

If you take issue with that by saying “God did that, he didn’t tell others to do it.” then I am going to have to open up my Bible again. Now we get into the more ridiculous parts of the Bible. The one that I think most parents need to pay attention to is that if a child is rebellious that they should be stoned to death (Exodus 21:15,17). Would you uphold your Gods holy law now? Would you murder your own child for having a tantrum and saying f*ck you? I wont get hung up on that one little law, there are many more that I can find. According to Exodus 22:20 anyone who offers burnt offerings to any god besides the Hebrew/Christian god is to be utterly destroyed, this means that around sixty to seventy per cent of the human population should be wiped out. If you even kindle a fire you are to be killed if it is the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2-3).

 

Silly me, those were all Old Testament and Old Testament does not count any more does it? Well, aside from tithing, hating gays, discriminating against other religions, and a lot more good stuff that we will not get into right now. Then again, Jesus did not have a problem with the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17). Jesus also tells us that if we look at someone lustfully and we are not married to them that we have committed adultery and should get rid of whatever caused us to sin (Matthew 5:29-30, 18:8-9, Mark 9:43-49). I don’t see many people missing limbs, eyes, or other parts of their anatomy at Church so why are so few Christians following the word of their God? Another is that people are saved based on what they believe, not their acts (John 3:18,36). That means that Heaven will be populated with the likes of Ted Bundy, not to mention many other serial killers, rapists, child molesters, you know, people who repent. In Acts, Peter says that all who do not follow Jesus should be killed (Acts 3:23), I can honestly say that with the War on Terror that the Christian Right is trying hard to follow this commandment.

 

I hope I have made my point so far. God is a horrible person by OUR moral standards. If any god cannot follow a few basic laws that are pretty much universal then why should I follow it? Satan and God both seem to be the same person here, and even if they weren’t Satan needs permission from God to bother the righteous. So anyway that you cut it God is responsible for the death and misfortune for at least every Christian in the world, but on a wider view he is responsible for the misfortune of all being because he made Satan at all.

 

Truthfully yours,

 

Jake

[Mythra]

Please note that ALL humans aside from Noah’s family were killed, including women, children, and infants.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good post, Jake. Hey, how many pregnant women do you suppose were drowned in the flood? Must've been quite a few in the whole world. Wouldn't that make god the worst fetus killer of all time? How come x-c's gotta think all this up? No one will be talking about this tomorrow morning in sunday school, I bet.

[Libertus]

I've asked a few xtians to sit down with a bible and try to prove to me that the Devil is the cause of all the worlds ills. They can't do it. There is nothing. In Genesis, god lies and the devil tells the truth. In Job, he's hanging out with god and working according to god's will. It's not until the New Testament shows up that you get issues, and most of that is just accusations hurled at him, not even any real anecdotal evidence for his being the king of all that is evil.

 

It's amazing how little xtians really know about the bible, and how they don't even take the NT and try to hold it up to what the OT says to see if it even really fits, which I don't believe it does at all.

 

Libertus

[Abiyoyo]

Now, I will go into the easiest part to attack so that I can build up to the grand finale. Christians believe, for the most part, that God made Hell. He also made Satan. I want you to stay with me now, because I am going to use logic right here. If God is all powerful and all knowing then God would have known that Satan would turn on him, deceive Adam and Eve causing them to fall from grace, and that he would deceive millions of people. Why would God allow this to happen? If he was all powerful he could have went back through time and kept himself from making Satan, and if he was all knowing he would have not made Satan in the first place to save humans all the pain and torment in the world.

 

Good comment. One I have come across many times. Unfortuniately, we dont know why God made him? God gives many descriptions of him, and makes the most vivid acts and desciptions(for me) for him through Job 41 and Jesus's dealings? Here is a website of some gnosnic stuff that has given me some answers, though I take all with a grain of salt so to speak.

 

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

 

These documents were supposedly found with the hopeful Isaiah documents of the Dead Sea scrolls. I look at these the same as I do the Bible, God inspired, not literal word by word.

 

Hard to wrap your mind around, is it not? So by the mere presence of Satan we can view God as impotent and fallible. If he is both then why call him God. If he is either then God is evil.

 

What else would I call Him. Even if God made Satan, He did in holiness( stay with me, now). If God is God, all holy, righteous, just, and upright, seeking His creations whole heart and wanting there companionship; Would He not have created something that would make us get to the point(through trials from the father of pride) where we were either seeking Gods heart in whole, or coming to Him daily for His companionship( Remeber, the scripture that we are talking about also talks about all those things as well).

 

Nevertheless, If God is all knowing, and Satan isnt, wouldnt he act in arrogance. I tend to picture Satan as a powerful force, just arrogant, and deceiving( more than we could probualy imagine, unless the Spirit of Truth shows us.) Question, If God knows all things, and Satan doesnt, Would Satan see the writting from God in His word and quit trying. I( being imaginative) could see Satan seeing the part where the Word says that he will be forever cast away, with his army and say," No, that wont happen"

 

My POV, If the Lord is all knowing, and Satan isnt. Why such a battle? Read Job 41.

 

“But God will save people if they only ask him too!” is an argument I hear from a LOT of Christians. Let me ask you this, though, would you trust a serial killer who seems to revel in the blood of those who disagree with them or a dictator who rules with an iron fist?

 

Now we get into the stuff I have to get out my beat up old Bible to research. The absurdity starts in Genesis where God says he is going to kill every living thing that he has made(Genesis 7:4). Allegedly this is because all of humanity had became wicked and worthy of being punished because they did not follow as he said (Genesis 6:5)(If you wish to note that Genesis 6:6 says that God was sorry he ever made man you will see that he is NOT all knowing or all powerful for the reasons given above.) Please note that ALL humans aside from Noah’s family were killed, including women, children, and infants. If someone were to go through, say, New York City and kill all people who had committed a sin against their god we would call them insane. This happens many places in the Bible, not just this one occurrence. (Sodom and Gomorrah, Moses’ plagues, a nice plague at the end of Exodus 32:35, a smaller but still horrid act in Numbers 16:20-25, and there are many more. [Don’t e-mail me for a list of these. Show some initiative and look them up, I have more important things to do]) 

 

If the Bible is real, and Gods Word, How else would God had dealt with peoples that sought evil, and would potentially cause His children( also talked about in Kings) to sin? I know, what about all the incidents in the Bible were God killed innocent people of His nation?. The better question, if that question(confusion) comes to mind, is What is Gods veiw about death with His children? What is Gods veiw about our life? (also answered in the Book).

 

 

If you take issue with that by saying “God did that, he didn’t tell others to do it.” then I am going to have to open up my Bible again. Now we get into the more ridiculous parts of the Bible. The one that I think most parents need to pay attention to is that if a child is rebellious that they should be stoned to death (Exodus 21:15,17). Would you uphold your Gods holy law now? Would you murder your own child for having a tantrum and saying f*ck you? I wont get hung up on that one little law, there are many more that I can find. According to Exodus 22:20 anyone who offers burnt offerings to any god besides the Hebrew/Christian god is to be utterly destroyed, this means that around sixty to seventy per cent of the human population should be wiped out. If you even kindle a fire you are to be killed if it is the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2-3).

 

Silly me, those were all Old Testament and Old Testament does not count any more does it? Well, aside from tithing, hating gays, discriminating against other religions, and a lot more good stuff that we will not get into right now

.

 

The answers are available to those that want to believe. If you disagree, look at Jesus's speaking about the meaning/ reasoning for the parables.

 

You said your pretty busy person, so I will spare you the time looking at night occasionally, when you wonder about life(harsh maybe, but meant well, as I still do this in all my fullnes of faith).

 

First, if the Word is to be taken literally, then we should all keep our speech to yes and no( as in Jesus says). That would make half your above paragraph invalid.

 

Next, Jesus did not seek or ask from anyone in regards to money, saying to use what we receive ofr supplies and give the rest to the poor. Jesus also said though, What is Ceasars give to him, and what is Gods give to Him. A good question for tithing then is, How much of what a man owns is his, and how much is Gods?

 

Really( speaking logically here), if God is our maker and Lord, Is not everthing on this earth His? (also in the Book).

 

Lastly, in the Book, the diciples give the Gentiles the decree for them. A very simple, easy to go by decree authorized from the ones with the Power from on High. A good example is Elijah. Elijah was called, a man of God, yet had troubles with his fears, while God had thousands of people that He called His people that Elijah didnt even know about. There are some that are called to different level of direction than others. As is a person that is called to follow the basic Gentile decrees, or spread the gospel to all nations.

 

 

 

 

 

Then again, Jesus did not have a problem with the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17). Jesus also tells us that if we look at someone lustfully and we are not married to them that we have committed adultery and should get rid of whatever caused us to sin (Matthew 5:29-30, 18:8-9, Mark 9:43-49). I don’t see many people missing limbs, eyes, or other parts of their anatomy at Church so why are so few Christians following the word of their God? Another is that people are saved based on what they believe, not their acts (John 3:18,36). That means that Heaven will be populated with the likes of Ted Bundy, not to mention many other serial killers, rapists, child molesters, you know, people who repent. In Acts, Peter says that all who do not follow Jesus should be killed (Acts 3:23), I can honestly say that with the War on Terror that the Christian Right is trying hard to follow this commandment.

 

Is that what he meant? Really? I thought that he meant( as He was just talking about the unrighteousness of the Pharisees, and there outward appearances) that if something/anything morally or causing unrighteousness( inward morality) to be dampened or hindered, cut it out of you life.

 

A good example of someone who searches for answers to life in the Bible, and someone who doesnt believe or nearing disbelief( Really, though, it happens immediatly, just takes a while to adjust, from what I have heard here) can read the same scripture yet take a whole different meaning to it.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Mythra]

The_Dead_Sea_Scrolls_at_the_Gnostic_Society_Library.htm

 

Yo-Yo: just a minor correction. The dead sea scrolls are completely unrelated to the nag hammadi codices.

 

The nag hammadi gnostic gospels were found in upper Egypt in 1945. The only reason that we have them today is because they were sealed in jars and hidden to keep the roman church from destroying them, as they did with so many other "heretical" manuscripts..

 

Too bad you don't take matthew, mark, luke, and john with the same grain of salt.

 

Attached is a brief article describing the two archaeological finds.

[Abiyoyo]

The_Dead_Sea_Scrolls_at_the_Gnostic_Society_Library.htm

 

Yo-Yo:  just a minor correction.  The dead sea scrolls are completely unrelated to the nag hammadi codices. 

 

The nag hammadi gnostic gospels were found in upper Egypt in 1945.  The only reason that we have them today is because they were sealed in jars and hidden to keep the roman church from destroying them, as they did with so many other "heretical" manuscripts.. 

 

Too bad you don't take matthew, mark, luke, and john with the same grain of salt.

 

Attached is a brief article describing the two archaeological finds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks, same time, not same place. Some questions answered in my mind, about the Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea scroll collections.

[Jay]

Now, I will go into the easiest part to attack so that I can build up to the grand finale. Christians believe, for the most part, that God made Hell. He also made Satan. I want you to stay with me now, because I am going to use logic right here. If God is all powerful and all knowing then God would have known that Satan would turn on him, deceive Adam and Eve causing them to fall from grace, and that he would deceive millions of people. Why would God allow this to happen? If he was all powerful he could have went back through time and kept himself from making Satan, and if he was all knowing he would have not made Satan in the first place to save humans all the pain and torment in the world.

 

Your post is too long, and the issues too complex to really discuss properly on a message board, but this particular paragraph bears some discussion. Some Christians do not believe the traditional view of all-knowing and all-powerful. For example, some of us do not believe that it is logically possible for God to know all future events exhaustively. We also do not believe that it is logically possible for God to "go back in time" and do anything.

 

You are attacking with some blanket statements, but, since I do not share the premises you began with, I will probably not be able to engage a useful debate with you.

[Vixentrox]

But yet you have no problem with your god committing infantcide and effectivley, abortion.

[Kay]

Wouldn't that make god the worst fetus killer of all time?

 

But yet you have no problem with your god committing infantcide and effectivley, abortion.

 

Well, according to my fundie friends, God can do it because he created us and that apparently gives him all rights to cut us open and strangle us with our own intestines if he really felt like it.

 

Likewise, this is reflected in Yoyo's thinking:

 

Really( speaking logically here), if God is our maker and Lord, Is not everthing on this earth His? (also in the Book).

 

Err...no. Yes, only if we were mindless automatons without free thought, but apparently, we have free will. Thus by giving us free will, god effectively gave up his right to demand belief and acceptance of him from us. To circumvent this boo-boo (gasp - evidence of imperfection?), Hell was created to torture, for all eternity, all who exercise their free will, make their assessment of god's atrocities and barbaric nature, express repulsion and reject him. By law, this is known as duress, and justifies the voiding of the contract, despite the coerced parting 'choosing' to sign the document.

 

Hence if god gave us the free will to decide for ourselves whether he's saviour or monster, and consequently whether to accept or shun him, how then can he turn around and say - "screw that, I'm gonna kill you anyway."

 

In a sense, I find it extremely hypocritical of the Catholic church in Hong Kong to be pushing for democratic freedoms, when their own religious institution, if not their god himself, is a bloody despot who tolerates no scrutiny or dissent.

 

Your post is too long, and the issues too complex to really discuss properly on a message board, but this particular paragraph bears some discussion.

 

Utter bollocks. That sounds like an attempt to dodge the hard questions to me. See YoYo complaining about the format of the message board and not being able to respond to all the issues raised?

 

These types of forums are the best for lengthy discussion. If you're concerned that too many issues have been raised by whatifidontwantausername?, create a new thread split from this one to deal with 'a' particular issue. That happens all the time around here.

[Vixentrox]

Tha fallacy of the logic is of course, if god can do what he wants becuase he owns/created us is at least two-fold. The first implies we are his property. Slaves. That's just fine and dandy in a D/s relationship that's mutually agreed on. However, I never (well not any more) agreed to be god's slave. The second is of course, your parents create you. They don't have any more right to kill you, torture you, ect than god does.

[Jay]

These types of forums are the best for lengthy discussion. If you're concerned that too many issues have been raised by whatifidontwantausername?, create a new thread split from this one to deal with 'a' particular issue. That happens all the time around here.

Personally, I prefer a bar stool with a Guinness in my hand.

 

The thing is, I haven't the time to sit here and type point by point responses to posts without the proper give and take that a real convesation affords. So, I have chosen to refrain from that sort of thing on message boards.

 

However, if you ever make it to South Central Wisconsin (I am just south of Madison), let me know, and I will be happy to spend a lot of time over a beer with you.

[Ouroboros]

These types of forums are the best for lengthy discussion. If you're concerned that too many issues have been raised by whatifidontwantausername?, create a new thread split from this one to deal with 'a' particular issue. That happens all the time around here.

Personally, I prefer a bar stool with a Guinness in my hand.

Amen to that! Preach it mister!

[BuddhistCommunist]

Well From what I've learned of Satan, Satan is that little voice in your head that says, "mabey it would be easier if i did this, or stole this. etc" Satan is the more Tempation himself than A fallen angel. If Satan was an angel who saw Gods power first hand with the creation and all, then how could he possibly think to stand up to him? All in all you come back to the fallability of God. When I was still a christian I asked a friend (now one of my spiritual mentors who believes in conscienceness being the driving force behind everything) "If the christians are right, do you think you will be going to heaven or hell?"

He said "if there is a hell that would be a cruel sadistic God that does not deserve any of my worship. and every day i would make a shrine and piss in his face." I learned pretty quick how wrong christians are. Satan is fear and ignorance in ones mind, not a fallen angel. And God, is false hope created by people that cant handle their own lives.

peace!