Guest SerenityNow Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 In order to stop hijacking the "Definition of Sin" thread, I thought it necessary to start a specific topic for this. SBF....You say that Hebrews 6 is hypothetical and spiritual regarding a believer falling away. I beg to differ. Paul says that you can "fall from grace" by obeying the Law. How can you "fall from grace" unless you had it previously? In Revelations, Jesus says that he will "spit out" the lukewarm believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 "Eternal security is surely Satan's masterpiece. This doctrine that claims that one can be "in Christ" while willingly dead in tresspasses and sins is pure heresy. The doctrine is rooted in unbelief, seeing that they deny that Christ has any power to deliver the believer here and now. The Bible tells us that Jesus came to destroy the work of the devil, and that Jesus came to save his people from their sins, not in their sins. A Savior who cannot live up to his promises to deliver us from our sins in this life cannot be depended on to deliver us after our death! I am uncomfortably confident that at the consummation of time it will be revealed that this sole doctrine alone will have populated the regions of hell far more than all other false teachings put together. Those that teach this heresy have exchanged light for darkness, truth for lies, and called it the Gospel." Jeff Paton, eternalsecurity.us. wow. Here is a christian who follows the same bible as savedbyfaith, yet this guy is saying that savedbyfaith is going to hell for believing in the security of the believer. Then he gives 200 scriptural references to back it up. Repeat after me. God is not the author of confusion. God is not the author of confusion. God is not the author of confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Once Saved, Always Saved Links and Articles Rather than waste time in pointless debate with an Xian, I figure we should let them slug it out amongst themselves. The above link is a XIAN resource page arguing scripturally AGAINST OSAS. Let's see Savedbyfaith squirm out of THIS one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 thankful, Appreciate a redirect and new thread on a *particular subject*. Instead of having to wade through elenty-bazillion pounds of excrement and bullshavings to find a few nuggets, paring off and starting a new topic that is *on target* is a good thing. daFatman likes focus. My objection to last thread was that it had gone off tanget and far longer than the discussion of the side arguments gave merit to. "Debate" is sharp, pointed, sometimes heated, discussion on a focused topic. It is not a "salvation shotgun" or a pit fulla sharp stakes we toss each other into to see how many times we take mortal wounds.. This Debate Forum is for the discussion of things that can and often get squirrely-pissed. I don't often stick my size 14's in the way of folks doing an honest attempt at discussion, however I do take serious objection to mankee poo flingin' space wasting carksacking BS that does nothing for said discussion and takes up valuable space.. kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 "Debate" is sharp, pointed, sometimes heated, discussion on a focused topic. [/i]It is not a "salvation shotgun" or a pit fulla sharp stakes we toss each other into to see how many times we take mortal wounds.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry Nivek. I got a little carried away. I was just tryin to check out the dude's armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 Mythra, [threadjack ON=1] Not a problem buds. If a subject is generating a lot of interest and discussion I'll usually pin it a week or so to prevent newer topics from necro-ing it down the list. When things are interesting, shit get said, items get tossed, words bandied about and temperature and tones of talk get easily sidetracked. My job, slight as it is here at ExC is to ensure that the topic in the threads stay a bit more focused than a zillion sidebar and sideline arguments. As thankful did here, a break off from original topic generates another line of reason that stands alone in the quest for answers in discussion. That is a good thing, allows discussion in places that don't require dsl speeds for folks to be able to read. (I'm on a 1.5 meg dsl up/down and sometime the long threads slow my browser to a crawl. Can't imagine the frustration of slower dialuppers.) "It's just the frackin' Internutt!!" May be, but ExC is home to a lot of good folks. Keeping the pages runnig well and making sure that the most folks get the best use and enjoyment from their visit here is part of my time here. [threadjack ON=0] kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 I agree Nivek, that topic got way of track, and Sbf was just trolling and not really giving any valid input anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 "Eternal security is surely Satan's masterpiece. This doctrine that claims that one can be "in Christ" while willingly dead in tresspasses and sins is pure heresy. The doctrine is rooted in unbelief, seeing that they deny that Christ has any power to deliver the believer here and now. The Bible tells us that Jesus came to destroy the work of the devil, and that Jesus came to save his people from their sins, not in their sins. A Savior who cannot live up to his promises to deliver us from our sins in this life cannot be depended on to deliver us after our death! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey Mythra, I want to ask you to think back when you use to be a Christian.... could Jesus fail? As a follower of Christ, I do not think he failed... and he came to save the world, so that is what he 'did'... every single one of us! (I know, I know... some of you don't want to be saved! ) I just happen to think everything has an order, with no elitism attached. (btw, I don't believe it is dependent on labels or claims, but actions.) Death is to be carnally minded, and to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Why can't we still be in the presence of an annointed actualized part of our self (Christ)... while still having carnal inclinations? Are we presiding in a realm within our conscience? Being saved by grace, is the argument that we are all doing our best we can do in the situation we are in, with the coping skills available to us... how can we condemn anyone or ourself to eternal torment for not doing better than our best? Everyone makes the best decision available to them at the time. It's all we can do, all we can ask. Still EVERYONE must be accountable and responsible for their actions... as that drives us into correction... a progressive evolution into mutual respect for all things. What happens after death? No one knows for sure... No one has figured out what animates life yet. What do you think happens when your physical body ceases to exist? There's a book called The Power of Now where the author says that our thoughts go masquerading as us, but is not us, yet there is an 'awareness' of these thoughts. Additionally, the thoughts are not us... that obscure 'awareness' of our thoughts is really who we are! Our thinking process may die with us, but how about that 'awareness'? I'm just curious of your position on this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Hey Mythra, I want to ask you to think back when you use to be a Christian.... could Jesus fail? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey Amanda. I don't have to think back all that long ago. I WANTED to believe. I wanted to believe so much. I WANTED to find out that it was all true. But, yes, I do think Jesus failed. And I'm not just thinking from my current perspective. Jesus made promises that he didn't keep (both from a historical perspective and from my personal perspective) He said stuff that I found out personally were false or just plain nonsense. You can't say "whatever you ask in my name, I will do it", and then not do it. If he meant "as long as it's God's will", then that's what Jesus should have said. Why pray at all? If only things that are God's will happen, then there is nothing to pray about. Nothing will happen apart from God's will, and nothing will get moved from the "not in God's will" column into the "in God's will column". Why pray? What's the point? You can't say that the comforter will come and reveal all things to you, and then leave people who genuinely want to follow you scratching their heads trying to make sense of it all. You can't say that there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. You can't say that "I'll be in you", "I'll be with you", and I'll help you to be dead to sin and to resist temptation, and then not follow through. Maybe all of this makes sense in your world of metaphysical interpretations. I like you, but your version of christianity isn't something I understand. From my perspective now, christianism (a crazy tiger copyrighted original term) is nothing more than an elaborate excercise in self-delusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Mythra, Mythra, Mythra... first, let me say that there is nothing about you I would change. You're a person I feel is a priviledge to have encountered... and I respect your comments and from where you are coming... He said stuff that I found out personally were false or just plain nonsense. You can't say "whatever you ask in my name, I will do it", and then not do it. If he meant "as long as it's God's will", then that's what Jesus should have said. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Please consider this.. a name is how we know and identify someone. Jesus had many ways to identify him... the Way, Truth, Life, Holy... so perhaps, if we ask to identify those things, it will be answered... IMHO. Why pray at all? If only things that are God's will happen, then there is nothing to pray about. Nothing will happen apart from God's will, and nothing will get moved from the "not in God's will" column into the "in God's will column". Why pray? What's the point? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We can ask. Jesus asked for this cup to pass by him... yet I think he overcame the world when he surrendered his will and said, not his will but God's will. Sometimes it has to do with 'surrender'. This is a hard thing to do... not many can, not I in too many cases. It is also hard to know when to surrender and when to keep having hope for my way... hoping it is his way. I think a lot of Jesus' teachings are about changing what is inside of us, which changes what is in our environment to us (perception). Many may think it is about changing our environment so that the inside of us will change, yet I think most of the time his teachings are not oriented this way but vice versa. You can't say that the comforter will come and reveal all things to you, and then leave people who genuinely want to follow you scratching their heads trying to make sense of it all. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> God said he makes us blind and he makes us deaf. It is in his timing, not ours. I think it is about 'order' with no elitism attached. I think EVERYONE is where they are suppose to be. Does that mean the comforter will not EVENTUALLY come and reveal all things? You can't say that there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I know I have a very controversial opinion on this one... as I think there are many indications that there is something similar to reincarnation in the Bible. Your body goes to ashes, yet your spirit... energy... just comes back in a different body. It says in the Bible, you die once and then there's judgement. Researching this word judgment all the way to its prime means to make pure as crystal. I think to see right through us, having nothing opposing the light. Perhaps we come back for more purification... maybe? I can just see you now Mythra... but I like ya' anyway. You can't say that "I'll be in you", "I'll be with you", and I'll help you to be dead to sin and to resist temptation, and then not follow through. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What about your conscience? Look in the KJV Strong's concordance. You will not find the word conscience before the time of Jesus. What do you think the hidden man of the heart is? Why do you think it is stressed to do all things with an honest report and a clear conscience... or to let your conscience be your witness? Maybe all of this makes sense in your world of metaphysical interpretations. I like you, but your version of christianity isn't something I understand. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm sure you won't be surprised to know that you are in the majority there! And it really doesn't make any difference, as I don't think I am perfectly right... nor anyone else. And IMHO many here, including you, are on a pretty impressive path to character and integrity... and what more can anyone ask? Just thought I'd comment, and I will answer Thankful later, as it is getting late now. From my perspective now, christianism (a crazy tiger copyrighted original term) is nothing more than an elaborate excercise in self-delusion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Isn't that what we ALL are doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Quote Amanda ..... as I think there are many indications that there is something similar to reincarnation in the Bible Amanda if you get a chance please tell us more about reincarnation in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 I think a lot of Jesus' teachings are about changing what is inside of us, which changes what is in our environment to us (perception). Many may think it is about changing our environment so that the inside of us will change, yet I think most of the time his teachings are not oriented this way but vice versa. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Amanda - your argument here might hold water, if there was any evidence that a "relationship" with Jesus made someone into a better person. We don't see that. A relationship with Jesus makes most people into worse people. Judgmental. Paranoid. Preoccupied. Sectarian. And sometimes, downright hateful. This is the first time I've mentioned this here, but before I was a christian, WAY back when I was in college, I got into a Japanese sect of Buddhism called Nichiren Shoshu Sokkagakkai. (NSA) Now, I have to honestly say that the people I knew there really did seem to have become better people through what they were doing. They were really happy, joyful people, really accepting of others, and just overall cool and fun to be around. If I saw christianity changing people in that way, I might be more apt to buy off on it. I've never seen a bigger bunch of back-biting, bitter people than you find in your average church. No such thing as the "indwelling of the holy spirit". Just different levels of detachment from reality. Here is my message to ALL religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Amanda - your argument here might hold water, if there was any evidence that a "relationship" with Jesus made someone into a better person. We don't see that. A relationship with Jesus makes most people into worse people. Judgmental. Paranoid. Preoccupied. Sectarian. And sometimes, downright hateful. Here is my message to ALL religion. I read in one of my books (I'll have to research which author), that "It takes just as much 'faith' to persecute someone, as it does to be a martyr." In other words, those "Xians" who were killing "heretics" did so as an act of "faith". They believed that THEY and they alone knew Jesus, and were thus doing "his" divine will. So how does that square with "knowing Jesus" = "good person"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Oh, Mythra, I love your wise cracks. LOL <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Would that be a smart arse then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 you missed the pun thankful. Just for that, here's a wise crack for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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