Christian Deconstruction

[Etchison]

Christians,

 

Please indulge me in a thought experiment.

 

Imagine that ALL the miracles about Jesus’s life were put into the stories long after Jesus was dead, by men of religion with the intent to manipulate us, give their religion sharper teeth, etc.

 

This means:

No Son of God.

No virgin birth.

No water. No wine.

No loaves and fishes.

No healing the blind.

No Lazarus.

 

Again, I’m not trying to offend. This is just a thought experiment. After all, Jesus himself said, “A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign.” Many Christians point out that this teaching was Jesus’s rebuff to those of us who need to see a miracle before we believe, right? So maybe you should imagine what it would be like to believe in a Jesus who never performed miracles or raised himself from the dead.

 

What would you be left with? Would you still worship him? Would you worship differently?

 

Because now we’re talking about just another dude here. A remarkable dude, and a brilliant dude, who is more spiritually evolved more than any of us–but still just a dude. So now Jesus as a role model is not something that’s impossible for us to aspire to, because he WAS just another human like you and me. His role model becomes something that is difficult, but doable.

 

He cared about sick people. He said, “He who has two cloaks should give to him who has none.” He preached about how riches are not a key to enlightenment, and that the poor in spirit are blessed. But he also instructed us to FEED the poor. He risked his life to speak out against oppression and hypocrisy. Ultimately, he pissed off people so much that they killed him.

 

And he died because of our foolishness. There was no resurrection. No floating into space. He just died. There’s no big revenge coming from his “Dad.” There will be no Armageddon. No Heaven. No Hell. No afterlife. Just this life.

 

What are you left with? His teachings on how to live, and his own example. Most of his teachings were lessons I can completely agree with. There would be little controversy–as much as there is about Gandhi or Dag Hammarskjöld.

 

Would you Christians still follow Jesus if this were true–if you had only his words to follow? If so, do you really follow his words now? Or do you just follow the meta-Jesus, whose example is impossibly difficult to follow, who cared only about the after-life at the expense of this life? Do you only follow the Jesus who represents strength and victory and power, and opposes the redistribution of wealth? Or the real Jesus who represented compassion and sacrifice?

[florduh]

I don't think you'll find many Christians interested in experimenting with thought.

 

Some of the teachings attributed to Jesus are found elsewhere and many people follow some of the concepts. I doubt anyone could throw out the supernatural aspects of the Bible story and call himself a Christian, however.

[R. S. Martin]

Etchison, if I am allowed to answer, not being a Christian, I would say you hit the nail on the head re the difference between the Christians and myself. I love the Jesus when depicted as a human hero. But this meta-guy the evangelicals profess he was--that seems to me like a projection of the human aspirations to power and superiority over lesser folk onto the screen of the universe and calling it god.

[Abiyoyo]

Etchison,

 

No Son of God.

No virgin birth.

No water. No wine.

No loaves and fishes.

No healing the blind.

No Lazarus.

 

God following Moses and the Israelites as a fog, or cloud day and night. The waters in Egypt being turned into blood, Moses striking a rock and water spewing from it. Women becoming pregnant as elders. A boy killing a giant with a stone. Manna falling from the sky. Elijah calling lightning to burn his offering. Fire from heaven consuming Sodom. A whirlwind taking Elijah up to heaven in a chariot. Daniel with the lions. God speaking through a burning bush. A donkey talking to a man. A fish swallowing a man and spitting him up on land.

 

Why would I debunk Christ and His miracles?

[florduh]

Well, WE were all Christians once who were willing to experiment with thought.

 

 

 

In my experience, Christians willing to think outside the book are rare, and those who do think usually don't remain Christians for long.

 

See post previous to yours!

[Abiyoyo]

Christians,

 

Please indulge me in a thought experiment.

 

Imagine that ALL the miracles about Jesus’s life were put into the stories long after Jesus was dead, by men of religion with the intent to manipulate us, give their religion sharper teeth, etc.

 

This is the meat of your topic really. Would Christians look differently into Christianity if Christ was never made into Christ by the religious leaders, assuming thats what happened?

 

Well, Etchison. Yes. It would be different. It would be Judaism

 

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, its just obvious. Christians wouldn't be Christians, and Jews would still just be Jews.

I have a question. How would America be different? Since there is a large potion of Christians here. No churches. No revivals. No preaching. Would we be people of any moral foundation?

[gypsy79]

I have a question. How would America be different? Since there is a large potion of Christians here. No churches. No revivals. No preaching. Would we be people of any moral foundation?

 

I think we would. The Czech Republic is 59% unaffiliated with religion according to their 2001 census and their crime rate is generally low. Also, not that HIV has anything to do with morality, but people like to say it does sometimes, so I'll throw that in too. Their HIV rate is lower than the USA's.

 

Sources: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/ and http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/c...1099.html#crime

[florduh]

"How would America be different? Since there is a large potion of Christians here. No churches. No revivals. No preaching. Would we be people of any moral foundation?"

 

 

Yes, a society NOT overwhelmed by the Jimmy Swaggarts, Jim Bakkers, pedophile priests, child-raping pastors and youth leaders, and even all the "good" ones; a place NOT overrun with churches on every block, religious lobbyists, billboards and a Gideon Bible in every hotel room - might have the morals of a Sweden, Japan, or any of dozens of cultures with lower crime rates (especially murder) than America.

 

It would be horrible to live like that.

[Ouroboros]

I haven't compared crime rate between Sweden and US lately. I do know the crime rate has gone up some in Sweden, and gone down in US, so maybe they're on the same level now, or not... but, some 8 years ago when I looked into the numbers, US had 4 times more murders per capita than Sweden, and 70% (or more) agnostics/atheists. The majority belong (by birth) to the Swedish church, but many have no real belief in the Christian god. There's plenty of pagans and such too. Lately I think Islam is getting stronger too. But overall, it can be seen from statistics that religion is not needed for a "moral" society.

[Spiderwire]

Etchison,

 

No Son of God.

No virgin birth.

No water. No wine.

No loaves and fishes.

No healing the blind.

No Lazarus.

 

God following Moses and the Israelites as a fog, or cloud day and night. The waters in Egypt being turned into blood, Moses striking a rock and water spewing from it. Women becoming pregnant as elders. A boy killing a giant with a stone. Manna falling from the sky. Elijah calling lightning to burn his offering. Fire from heaven consuming Sodom. A whirlwind taking Elijah up to heaven in a chariot. Daniel with the lions. God speaking through a burning bush. A donkey talking to a man. A fish swallowing a man and spitting him up on land.

 

Why would I debunk Christ and His miracles?

 

 

Is there any relevant and/or reasonable discussion possible with anyone who has such thoughts as this? What a total waste of time and thought.

 

I'm so glad I'm free of fantasy world!!!

[Abiyoyo]

Is there any relevant and/or reasonable discussion possible with anyone who has such thoughts as this? What a total waste of time and thought.

 

I'm so glad I'm free of fantasy world!!!

 

Free for now.

[florduh]

Is there any relevant and/or reasonable discussion possible with anyone who has such thoughts as this? What a total waste of time and thought.

 

I'm so glad I'm free of fantasy world!!!

 

Free for now.

 

 

Spiderwire - I think YoYo knows you're going to the Hell you deserve. Let's see you mock a merciful and just god then!!!!

[Abiyoyo]

Is there any relevant and/or reasonable discussion possible with anyone who has such thoughts as this? What a total waste of time and thought.

I'm so glad I'm free of fantasy world!!!

Free for now.

Spiderwire - I think YoYo knows you're going to the Hell you deserve. Let's see you mock a merciful and just god then!!!!

 

Dunno

I thought my post was relevant to the OP. He is saying the church altered Jesus, then asked if 'we' would worship different, and then addressed the whole topic to Christians wanting us to 'experiment in thought'.

 

So. Free for now

 

See. I think the opposite actually. I think the putting away of any type of deity or higher power is living in fantasy world. Thats just me though.

[Ouroboros]

See. I think the opposite actually. I think the putting away of any type of deity or higher power is living in fantasy world. Thats just me though.

Well, we do know you're delusional and should check into a clinic. People who see the world for what it is, and nothing more, are not living in a fantasy world. While people who believe there are magical creatures in a spiritual world, and a superman being, who reminds you of Santa Claus, and can create universes with his words, and fights warfare against other supernatural beings of immense power, that my friend, is fantasy world thinking. To believe fabulous stories told my ancient storytellers, is to live a fantasy life. To reject old stories as true, because they don't fit reality, that is not living in fantasy. But I know, your dreamworld is more real to you than the world outside your door.

 

So what kept you away for so long? It's been a while.

[Spiderwire]

Maybe I wasn't very clear.

 

It's no mystery that you wouldn't have any reason or need to debunk Christ or anything associated with him when you're willing to believe things that are even more ridiculous and foolish than anything that's been written about him. And actually, I can wrap my mind around the theology and the concepts of Jesus, the things he supposedly did, his "mission" here on earth, and the whole died for your sins thing. It's a huge rip off and conglomeration of various other religious mythology, but whatever. It's a belief that's insane in and of itself.

 

What I think is patently insane are things of this nature:

 

God following Moses and the Israelites as a fog, or cloud day and night. The waters in Egypt being turned into blood, Moses striking a rock and water spewing from it. Women becoming pregnant as elders. A boy killing a giant with a stone. Manna falling from the sky. Elijah calling lightning to burn his offering. Fire from heaven consuming Sodom. A whirlwind taking Elijah up to heaven in a chariot. Daniel with the lions. God speaking through a burning bush. A donkey talking to a man. A fish swallowing a man and spitting him up on land.

 

Standing back from this type of thinking, it's incredible to me that I even considered such things to be anything other than the fantasy they are. Why otherwise intelligent people are willing to call the legends of the ancient Greeks mythology and that kind of shit fact and the foundation for the personal beliefs by which they live their lives is, simply, mind boggling. It's insanity. I feel genuine pity for someone who believes such rubbish because it's what was taught to them from childhood and they're terrified of everlasting punishment for even thinking otherwise, but I want no contact or interaction with someone who is able to see how ludicrous such beliefs are and still embrace them anyway... and, in fact, proudly proclaim such utter bullshit as TRUTH and be so smug as to insinuate that one fine day they'll be right and rewarded for such outlandish beliefs. The mixture of ignorance and arrogance is astounding!

[gypsy79]

Wow. No response to the comments made between 2:02 and 2:55.

[Antlerman]

I have a question. How would America be different? Since there is a large potion of Christians here. No churches. No revivals. No preaching. Would we be people of any moral foundation?

This is a totally fabricated and unsuportable claim. In fact, quite the contrary YoYo, studies have shown that societies that are more religious have a higher degree of dysfunction. This is from a legitamate study conducted by a non-partisian religious studies group associated with Creighton University. I suggest you actually investigate the data presented in it before making bogus claims like this again:

Conversely, how do the latter achieve superior societal health while having little in the way of the religious values or institutions?

There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms

(Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses.

 

 

From here: http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html

 

You honestly mean to tell me that you need a god in the sky to keep you behaving corretly? That's a frightening thought. I guess us atheists are the more moral, since we just do it without a god threatening us. Is that what you're suggesting? (Think, don't just repeat).

[Antlerman]

In regards to the OP, this is an interesting question that I've often approached to Christians in a slightly different way. I ask if there was no afterlife, would you still follow Jesus? The funny thing is, that most Christians actually would do what YoYo and company suggest, that if God doesn't exist, if there's no golden pot at the end of the rainbow for them, then they would sooner go out and murder, rape, and steal. In other words, they are the epitome of selfishness, and the complete contrary position to anything that could respectably be called spiritual. What they are is religious. The big dirty R word.

 

To me, anyone who would choose to call themselves a Christian, a follower of Christ, would not have that be contingent on "salvation", meaning in the contemporary culture "them" being "saved". Modern American Evangelical Christianity is the "ME" Religion. Enlightenment, wisdom, etc are not the goals of their following Christianity. They are after "their" relationship with God, "their" being saved, "their" prosperity, etc, etc. In fact, they aren't Christians at all in the earliest sense of that word; they are follows of Christianity, the religion. They are Christianitiers, really.

 

Why are there miracle stories? Let me ask this question. Why does God need a circus to get attention? Why does God need to put on a big show for what is said to be "believable"? That sounds like a snake oil salesmen, not some Almighty God of Eternity. No, such a God wouldn't need a pyrotechnics display to get attention. There's another reason for the stories - it's rooted in human culture, it's rooted in the vehicle of story telling. Literalists are such fools.

 

But the question is, if Jesus was just a wise sage, and there was no afterlife, is Jesus still meaningful? I'd lay money the churches would empty if God told them when they die that's it there no afterlife, and there never was nor will be any miracle interventions for them. Why would they want that? The very fact that they could even ask us what would keep us moral if God didn't exist, shows how insincere they are and what really motivates them.

 

If we don't need God to be moral, does that mean we are God and Christians should be following us?

[Neon Genesis]

I doubt anyone could throw out the supernatural aspects of the Bible story and call himself a Christian, however.

Bishop Spong likes to try, though:

 

Why would I debunk Christ and His miracles?

So, in other words, you don't really care about the teachings of Jesus? You only care about living in a fantasy world of magic and make believe and you're only using the bible as a form of escapism. You're worshiping the bible more than you worship Jesus and I don't know about you, but that sounds like idolatry to me and that makes you an idolater. Isn't idolatry a sin in the bible?

 

Would we be people of any moral foundation?

So, what you're basically saying is that YOU would be immoral if the bible wasn't literally true?

 

I think the putting away of any type of deity or higher power is living in fantasy world. Thats just me though.

You realize the burden of proof lies with you, right?

[Etchison]

Some excellent responses here, thanks. I also got some disappointing responses on my blog. Perhaps I should go to a Christian forum and post the question there, pretending to be a Christian, just to see the responses. YoYo doesn't seem like a good representation. Christians who come HERE to argue are of a certain ilk ...

 

Adding the "No Afterlife" stipulation is also an excellent addition! The afterlife is also an element of "faith" that requires a leap--and probably one of the most important influencers in people's lifestyle choices.

 

However, I don't think people would go out and rape, murder or steal if they suddenly found out there was no hell (unless they are already rapists, murderers, or thieves.) They might *think* they would, but that's because of the fucked up self-image they have, and to say as much is a form of testifying to their "sin nature." But I think they don't do those things because they're decent, normal people. They might do those things FOR their faith, though, given the right time and place.

[Antlerman]

However, I don't think people would go out and rape, murder or steal if they suddenly found out there was no hell (unless they are already rapists, murderers, or thieves.) They might *think* they would, but that's because of the fucked up self-image they have, and to say as much is a form of testifying to their "sin nature." But I think they don't do those things because they're decent, normal people. They might do those things FOR their faith, though, given the right time and place.

Just wanted to quote that again because it was so well said.

 

If they in fact were to lose faith in their system they would become just as we are, realizing that we are moral without having been told to be by a primitive tribal god. I wonder if they hold on to this notion of moral collapse without their religion god to keep them in check, as some form of rationalization for their faith? Honestly, I think that's it. There's no evidence whatsoever to support that assumption, yet it seem as favorite pet theory of theirs. Evidence of the weakness of their faith.

 

Reality is god. They should worship that instead!

[Justin]

Where in blazes has YoYou went? Why do they come on here in the first place if the only thing they do is tuck tail and run, cowering from questions and everything put before them?

 

YoYo, you asked a question earlier that has been asked and answered a billion times. The question was how can we be moral if we do not have god. I'm not even going to get into the details of this, as it's already been answered beautifully and to the point by many others (on this one thread too), but rather, i'm just going to comment on how sad an individual you are. You feel that the only way to be a nice, decent person is to have this power given to you by a mystical, fairy in the sky. That speaks volumns about you. You knock aside reality for a belief structured around a talking snake, mankind falling from paradise via eating FRUIT, that all races came from ONE man, that representatives of all animals took a cruise as the ENTIRE world flooded above the highest mountain, a man who's strength was in his HAIR, people living HUNDREDS of years, a fire breathing serpent that lives in the sea, giants, the parting of a sea, plagues one request and so on and so on and so on. Yet you say we live in a fantasy world?

[Yrth]

Where in blazes has YoYou went? Why do they come on here in the first place if the only thing they do is tuck tail and run, cowering from questions and everything put before them?

Alright. Etchinson, YoYo left because you asked an absurd question, and possibly also because he was receiving more grief than necessary in the coliseum section. He gave his answer:

Would Christians look differently into Christianity if Christ was never made into Christ by the religious leaders, assuming thats what happened?

 

Well, Etchison. Yes. It would be different. It would be Judaism

 

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, its just obvious. Christians wouldn't be Christians, and Jews would still just be Jews.

And of course the spirit of his answer is dead on: of course no one would worship the person who was left, that's just crazy! *coughs away smile, lets sniggers fade* Now, alright, I do not believe that this was the originally intended question motivating the OP. But Antlerman reinforced the misinterpretation later on after everyone got way off topic (sometimes making good and interesting points, but still) talking about America and morality. cheesus..:

But the question is, if Jesus was just a wise sage, and there was no afterlife, is Jesus still meaningful?

Again, that is not the question I see here. Or, at least, that's not a very meaningful question to a Christian. The relevant query is whether it is possible or even probable that (quoting Etchinson) "all the miracles about Jesus’s life were put into the stories long after Jesus was dead, by men of religion with the intent to manipulate us, give their religion sharper teeth, etc." That is a question to which many Christians would give serious thought, and it gives the person outside the religion significant inroads into the absurdity of Christian claims.

 

So, YoYo, if you're reading this, what are your thoughts: is it possible? probable? Why or why not?

[chefranden]

Where in blazes has YoYou went? ...

 

YoYo comes and goes. He's a bit odd, but not a troll IMHO.

 

I also think he answered the question adequately.

[Etchison]

While I agree that YoYo is not a troll, I don't think he gave a fair answer to the question. If my "hypothetical" post were true, would YoYo be Jewish? Does he really think he would be wearing a yarmulke and going to temple? I doubt it. Or perhaps his answer is implied: that he would not worship a mortal Jesus.

 

My original intent of this post was to confront Christians with the actual teachings of Christ, and hopefully show how dramatically it opposes the stereotypical Christian of today. I think today's Christians see Jesus as the "Iron Man" in their soul. They need for him to be a Republican superhero who will one day brandish his weapon and slay his adversaries, who conquered death, will bring justice, peace, and the American way, blah blah blah.

 

But the actual words of Jesus indicate a very very different world view. My intent was to confront them with that.