Still feeling betrayed?

[BeccasStillSeeking]

The hardest thing about leaving Christianity, for me, was/is trying to figure out what to do with my emotions surrounding the issue. Ten years ago, when I finally left, it felt like a relief initially, because I was no longer walking around under the assumption that God was, basically, ignoring me. Either God didn't exist, or was nothing like the Christians said. Intellectually, the falling-away was fairly easy; all I had to do was listen to the evidence and my own common sense instead of trying to force scripture down my own throat. Spiritually, it was rougher, since it forced me onto the uncomfortable path of the Seeker. But emotionally?

 

I'm not a hateful person. Actually, I'm generous to a fault and "too nice" (bleh) in spite of myself a lot of the time. But I found myself engaging in virulent Fundie-baiting amongst the most diehard of Atheist satirists for over a year after my deconversion. Whenever I encountered a finger-wagging Christian, or even just a cheery one who was into talking about it, I would feel this unbelievable rage. It was like sitting there listening to my rapists's new girlfriend brag about how wonderful he was in bed. It didn't last; I forced myself to stop on moral grounds. But even as the anger faded...the pain, and sense of loss and being betrayed, did not.

 

In an attempt to fill that void, I threw myself into all sorts of independent spiritual studies, ending up amongst the Pagans, which was really a good place for me to be for a long while even though I really couldn't bring myself to more than marginally believe in a lot of gods or magic. Honestly, I just kept searching for direct spiritual experience, and tried not to think about how little luck I was having. I didn't realize it, but the emotional wounds--the sense of betrayal by church, clergy and God--hadn't gone away. HAVEN'T gone away, I should say.

 

About six months ago, my Pagan fiance started studying the works of Alan Kardec. He finds them just brilliant and has been trying to get me to read them. But I realized as I tried to read that I just plain kept bumping up against Kardec's Christian leanings, and it was causing me much more trouble than it should. Unlike with my Dad's recent conversion to Catholicism, which doesn't affect my life too much, this started to. Finally, it clicked: why was all of this bugging me so much?

 

I brought it up with my therapist, did some reading, and asked around on various fora, finally ending up here.

 

It doesn't seem to matter that I don't really believe in Yahweh or trust the church anymore. The pain doesn't care. Is anyone else having problems recovering from this sense of betrayal? That feeling like you halfway wish you COULD meet God or Jesus--just so you could tell them off? Is anyone else, in spite of all our logical efforts to just get over it, still feeling hurt and pissed at "God?"

[Checkmate]

Is anyone else, in spite of all our logical efforts to just get over it, still feeling hurt and pissed at "God?"

 

Funny that you should ask that? Because up until TODAY, I felt EXACTLY as you describe. But it appears that all my ranting, raving and pontificating has FINALLY made some kind of difference.

 

At this very MOMENT I don't SEEM to be as consumed with anger as I was just yesterday.

 

Weird, huh?

 

Will this peace last? I hope so. Cause I sure was fucking tired of giving them power over my emotions.

 

I STILL say "fuck Xians!", but now it's without anger. I even smile when I say it! I think I've finally managed to shove them into the compartment I set aside for people who believe in Santa Claus. Not worth real scorn, but rather my pity.

 

Which is NOT to say that Xians who push political agendas don't make me see red, but NORMAL Xians (the kind that don't know or do shit), they don't rate anymore.

 

 

["Hey!" Thump!]

<<<<pushed off of soap box to make room for someone else.>>>>

[spidermonkey]

I was angry at "ghod" for the first year or so after I left. Whenever something would frustrate me, I'd shake my fist at the sky and curse "ghod," because I still had the mindset that ghod either causes problems or allows them to happen.

 

Sometimes I still catch myself saying that, although it's very rare now.

[Amethyst]

I don't believe god exists -- at least not the Christian god. If there is a god, he/she/it would be a much more decent and intelligent being. I am, however, pissed off at the writers of the Bible for creating this charade in the first place, and the church for continuing it for so long. Surely the higher ups of the Catholic church know, or at least have some idea, that this is all false. They were one of the original sects, and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they have proof laying around somewhere that the Bible is fake and the entire thing is just a mind control device.

[dogmatically_challenged]

I don't believe god exists -- at least not the Christian god.  If there is a god, he/she/it would be a much more decent and intelligent being.  I am, however, pissed off at the writers of the Bible for creating this charade in the first place, and the church for continuing it for so long.  Surely the higher ups of the Catholic church know, or at least have some idea, that this is all false.  They were one of the original sects, and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they have proof laying around somewhere that the Bible is fake and the entire thing is just a mind control device.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea. Everything you said Amethyst. Thats why I'm not afraid to be an atheist, to be truthful. I have no evidence for myself so I really don't entertain the idea of god really. I just don't believe that there are gods. But if I'm wrong I don't fear the real god because it would be WAY MORE intelligent than bible god.

[Checkmate]

I don't believe god exists -- at least not the Christian god.  If there is a god, he/she/it would be a much more decent and intelligent being.  I am, however, pissed off at the writers of the Bible for creating this charade in the first place, and the church for continuing it for so long.  Surely the higher ups of the Catholic church know, or at least have some idea, that this is all false.  They were one of the original sects, and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they have proof laying around somewhere that the Bible is fake and the entire thing is just a mind control device.

 

Check this out:

 

PIOUS FRAUD

 

Hugh Fogelman

 

 

Forgery during the first centuries of the Church's existence was admittedly rampant, so common in fact, that a new phrase was coined to describe it: "pious fraud." Wheless, op cit. Mangasarian states: "The church historian, Mosheim, writes that, 'The Christian Fathers deemed it a pious act to employ deception and fraud.' [Ecclesiastical Hist., Vol. I, p. 347.]

 

Again, he says: “The greatest and most pious teachers were nearly all of them infected with this leprosy.' Will not some believer tell us why forgery and fraud were necessary to prove the historicity of Jesus.‘”

 

Another historian, Milman, writes that, “Pious fraud was admitted and avowed by the early missionaries of Jesus.” “It was an age of literary frauds,” writes Bishop Ellicott, speaking of the times immediately following the alleged crucifixion of Jesus.

 

Dr. Giles declares that, “There can be no doubt that great numbers of books were written with no other purpose than to deceive.” And it is the opinion of Dr. Robertson Smith that, “There was an enormous floating mass of spurious literature created to suit party views.”

 

Rev. Giles says: “The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are never mentioned by him (Justin)―do not occur once in all his writings.” In A Short History of the Bible, Keeler says, "The books [canonical gospels] are not heard of till 150 A.D., that is, till Jesus had been dead nearly a hundred and twenty years. No writer before 150 A.D. makes the slightest mention of them."  (J. Wheless, Forgery in Christianity).

 

In The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read, John Remsburg states: "The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the use of these Gospels had they existed in his time. He makes more than 300 quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels.”

 

Such prevarication is confessed to repeatedly in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Wheless: "The clerical confessions of lies and frauds in the ponderous volumes of the Catholic Encyclopedia alone suffice … to wreck the Church and to destroy utterly the Christian religion. . . . The Church exists mostly for wealth and self-aggrandizement; to quit paying money to the priests would kill the whole scheme in a couple of years. This is the sovereign remedy."

 

"Those who concocted some of the hundreds of "alternative" gospels and epistles that were being kicked about during the first several centuries CE have even admitted that they had forged the documents." (J. Wheless, Forgery in Christianity).

 

Christians are betting their souls on this type of FRAUD.

 

 

 

What a shame!

 

Edited to add: Pious fraud

[Sensitive_Flower]

Hi Beccas

 

Im still angry. In fact I made my own little rant about it a couple of days ago in the rant forum and already I am feeling better. Obviously, looking at TK421 ranting helps

[Loren]

Is anyone else, in spite of all our logical efforts to just get over it, still feeling hurt and pissed at "God?"

I've never felt mad at "God" over this whole thing. However, I've gotten extremely pissed at two thousand years of the damned Christian clergy having lied to us and betrayed our trust in them to know what they're doing and to tell us the truth.

 

When I first abandoned the faith, I went through a time of being pissed at Christians in general, but that went away pretty quickly. After all, I was one, too. It was fairly easy for me to see that we have all been deceived. The damned clergy are in a completely different category of responsibility, however. The more I learned about church and doctrinal history, the more enraged I got. I have the same feelings toward the damned clergy that I do when I learn of some cop, doctor or judge who's corrupt and/or incompetent. They've abused their positions of trust by using and lying to us all along. They've had all that training and should know better in every way. The damned clergy has no excuse!

 

They should have been tarred and feathered many, many centuries ago.

[DoubleDee]

Ditto what Loren said, but I was also mad at myself for being deceived. I got over that pretty quickly though. I couldn't be angry with a "God" I didn't believe existed so I turned my anger towards learning more about the bible and the history of the church.

[highvoltage]

Damn that's delicious! (referring to PIOUS FRAUD)

 

My mind is being freed from the indoctrination of so many years of bondage to religious superstition.

 

At the same time that my brain is rewarding me for being intellectually honest about xtianity for the first time in my life, I do feel irritated that I was decieved for 20+ years. Like Loren said, I feel angry at the clergy for disseminating these lies.

[Amethyst]

In The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read, John Remsburg states: "The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the use of these Gospels had they existed in his time. He makes more than 300 quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels.”

 

That was one of the first books I read when I was questioning.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

That was one of the first books I read when I was questioning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think I need to get that one for my Dad. If he ever finishes reading the Gnostic Gospels. (Oooo, reading unauthorized material! He's such a terrible Catholic!)

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Funny that you should ask that?  Because up until TODAY, I felt EXACTLY as you describe.  But it appears that all my ranting, raving and pontificating has FINALLY made some kind of difference.

 

At this very MOMENT I don't SEEM to be as consumed with anger as I was just yesterday.

 

Weird, huh?

 

Will this peace last?  I hope so.  Cause I sure was fucking tired of giving them power over my emotions.

 

I STILL say "fuck Xians!", but now it's without anger.  I even smile when I say it!  I think I've finally managed to shove them into the compartment I set aside for people who believe in Santa Claus.  Not worth real scorn, but rather my pity.

 

Which is NOT to say that Xians who push political agendas don't make me see red, but NORMAL Xians (the kind that don't know or do shit), they don't rate anymore.

["Hey!"  Thump!]

<<<<pushed off of soap box to make room for someone else.>>>> 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm finding some of my old sadness and anger draining away now that I have some people to talk to who actually understand what I went through. Ultimately, though, I keep coming back to certain parts of it.

 

I no longer believe that the Divine expresses itself anything like Christianity claims, but I keep coming back to what happened to me as a kid. Unfortunately, my memory's extremely good. I remember exACTly what it feels like to KNOW BibleGod exists, be following the rulebook as best I can, even be willing to bleed for it--and then pray, supplicate, plead, weap, beg on my stupid knees for a scrap of love or comfort, get nothing, and finally conclude that God was ignoring me. Didn't like me. Considered me unworthy. Which meant, of course, that I was bad and wrong and evil and all that crap.

 

Basically, my pain came from the disconnect between reality and the Christian mythology I was being fed. But it's like there's this broken six-year-old inside of me that still wants to find BibleGod--so I can grab him by the lapels, slap him and scream, "You absolute bastard, I worked my ass off to make you happy in spite of your IMPOSSIBLE standards, and you just stood by and let me get tortured!"

 

Or something.

 

Yeah, I know it's juvenile, but the feeling still plagues me.

 

How the hell do you heal from scars made by an abuser you can't confront?

[godlessgrrl]

I don't actually remember feeling any animosity towards *god*, in any of his confusing Xian manifestations. I still don't. I'm much more pissed off at the church in general, and the whole religion as an organized body. I see the history of Xianity (OT and NT) as being one long program of genocide, of goddess religion in particular and anybody who wasn't in the same club in general. That pisses me off no end, especially being a historian and artist and thinking about things like, what have we lost because a bunch of zealous honks decided to destroy it all??

 

I still have an inordinate amount of rage at the fundy nutwacker who dumped me for being ungodly. That experience was the last nail in the coffin of my Xianity, and that's a good thing. But I didn't realize until a few days ago how much I still hate that guy in particular. I think I was reading about the situation with Doomguarder's friend, whose dad and BF decided she needed to quit school and go pump out babies... I was literally reading that and started feeling like I wanted to rip off someone's head and spit down their neck. I rarely get that angry. That situation is angering enough on its own, but I think the degree to which I flipped about it has a lot to do with unresolved fury at my own ex.

 

How the hell do you heal from scars made by an abuser you can't confront?

 

I don't know. I'm still not over this guy, obviously. And I'm definitely still pissed about church history. Fwiw.

[Checkmate]

How the hell do you heal from scars made by an abuser you can't confront?

It ain't easy, darlin'!

 

Particularly when that "abuser" is only a figment of someone else's imagination (and used to be ours, too).

 

I wish I had some psychological/spiritual wand to wave and make it all go away, but I don't. (If I did, I'd have used it on me!)

 

They say that "Time heals all wounds". And as distasteful and unsatisfying as that trite cliche is, I'm finding that it does have much truth to it. But how much time it takes for each of us to "get over" this hurt, will depend on the individual.

 

A lot of the healing begins when we finally let it go, recognizing that there ain't jack shit any of us can do to reclaim our stolen and abused pasts. (This is HAA-ARD! I STILL have lingerie rage at what I've lost. Fuck Pascal AND his "wager"!)

 

[breathe, breathe!] Okay, I'm fine.

 

Next, I suppose we continue to vent, but in a positive fashion. Not with continued venom spewing at Xianity, but in some constructive method(s). THIS forum is a great place to start figuring what these methods could be.

 

Another of my favorite sayings ("I gotta million of 'em!"), is "When vengeance is your goal, dig TWO graves." (One for your enemy, and the other for YOU.) Don't let the "Destruction of the Church" become your mantra, nor your life story. It already owned you once. It'll continue owning you if you let it. (Besides, "The best revenge is living well!")

 

It'll take time, but I'm certain we'll find our way. ("With a little help from our friends" here!) We ain't the first cult survivors, and sadly, we won't be the last.

 

Take heart, "For this, too, shall pass."

[BeccasStillSeeking]

It ain't easy, darlin'!

 

Particularly when that "abuser" is only a figment of someone else's imagination (and used to be ours, too).

 

I wish I had some psychological/spiritual wand to wave and make it all go away, but I don't.  (If I did, I'd have used it on me!)

 

They say that "Time heals all wounds".  And as distasteful and unsatisfying as that trite cliche is, I'm finding that it does have much truth to it.  But how much time it takes for each of us to "get over" this hurt, will depend on the individual.

 

A lot of the healing begins when we finally let it go, recognizing that there ain't jack shit any of us can do to reclaim our stolen and abused pasts.  (This is HAA-ARD!  I STILL have lingerie rage at what I've lost.  Fuck Pascal AND his "wager"!)

 

[breathe, breathe!]  Okay, I'm fine.

 

Next, I suppose we continue to vent, but in a positive fashion.  Not with continued venom spewing at Xianity, but in some constructive method(s).  THIS forum is a great place to start figuring what these methods could be.

 

Another of my favorite sayings ("I gotta million of 'em!"), is "When vengeance is your goal, dig TWO graves."  (One for your enemy, and the other for YOU.)  Don't let the "Destruction of the Church" become your mantra, nor your life story.  It already owned you once.  It'll continue owning you if you let it.  (Besides, "The best revenge is living well!")

 

It'll take time, but I'm certain we'll find our way.  ("With a little help from our friends" here!)  We ain't the first cult survivors, and sadly, we won't be the last.

 

Take heart, "For this, too, shall pass." 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, I hear you, and thanks. I really...I have worked hard NOT to feel vengeful against the various sects of Christendom and their members. I've done my best, but it's rough because if it wasn't for their false advertising, I would have relied on myself as a child instead of God, and be a lot less screwed up for it. Yet I have to recognize that not only are they deeply deluded--they cling desperately to that delusion, and will naturally get hostile if it is challenged. It's in their holy book, so it absolutely positively MUST be true even if there is a mountain of real-life evidence to the contrary. The thing that gets me is--the bastards aren't satisfied with believing what they believe. They have to try and force everyone else to believe in it too!

 

I've noticed that SavedByFaith never even attempted to reply to my demand that he justify his bullshit claim that we "weren't true christians" against the hard reality of my experience. That is probably for the best. Only one Fundie ever was STUPID enough to keep at that argument when he realized what he was dealing with. Even the OTHER Fundies on the group shouted that asshole down--it was actually kind of interesting. I guess they respected my "faith under fire" as a kid or something.

 

I don't know if I can ever reconcile myself to what I lost. I mean, everyone loses something to the whole Christian experience, be it time, money, self-esteem, friends, loved ones, sexual security or what have you. But child abuse+untreated disabilities+twenty years praying to the Silent God? What a tangle....