Power

[Legion]

I have heard it said that we live in a power evolving universe. And it might be effectively argued that we now have a great deal more power than our distant ancestors. I am always surprised at those who seem to hold a negative connotation of power. For me it is a neutral thing, being in itself neither good nor bad. In my opinion benevolence or malevolence arise in relation to the intent and application of power.

 

So what is power? And in how many forms does it come? I looked power up on Wiki and completely disagree with its definition. The definition that comes closest to my own is… Power is the ability to affect change. And this seems to agree both with the physicist’s definition and the sociologist’s.

 

I don’t want to labor too long now in this opening post to espouse my own views of power. Rather my aim is to open a discussion about it and see what might evolve. I suspect we all want more power and I see nothing wrong with this. We might even want our children’s children to have more power than we can now even dream about.

 

So please, come let us discuss power.

[par4dcourse]

Hi Legion. Hope yours is going well.

I think you're going to have to narrow down the topic a little. Power in a purely physical sense is simply force. Mass times acceleration. Power in a political sense is the ability to control others. Power could also mean control of resources in an area of limited means. Taken to the extreme it means unusual or paranormal capabilities such as the power of precognition.

Sounds like a good discussion, just narrow down the boundries a little.

Have a great one, my friend.

 

--larry

[Jeff H]

I forget what class I heard this in - maybe a philosophy class of one kind - but one point brought up was a distinction between power and authority. Authority was defined as the right to take action (or I guess control people would work as well), whereas power was defined as the ability to take action. So in other words, someone like the Queen of England has authority, but very little real power - it's all really just symbolic. A criminal with a gun, of course, has plenty of power to make people do things, but not the authority to do so. A police officer or a government (arguably) would have both.

 

Just my $0.02 on the matter.

[Vomit Comet]

I forget what class I heard this in - maybe a philosophy class of one kind - but one point brought up was a distinction between power and authority. Authority was defined as the right to take action (or I guess control people would work as well), whereas power was defined as the ability to take action. So in other words, someone like the Queen of England has authority, but very little real power - it's all really just symbolic. A criminal with a gun, of course, has plenty of power to make people do things, but not the authority to do so. A police officer or a government (arguably) would have both.

 

Just my $0.02 on the matter.

 

"Power comes from the barrel of a gun." - Mao Zedong

 

"What you cannot enforce, do not command." - I forget which Greek guy

 

"The state is that entity which has the monopoly on violence." - Max Weber

 

Authority ain't shit without power. That's why the church has been reeling hard since the 18th century.

[Legion]

Well I suppose I am somewhat pleased to finally see some responses here Par, Jeff and VC. And I think what you’ve said is interesting. My own thoughts about power are kind of vague, which is why I brought it up. I was interested in seeing what some of you thought about it.

 

I still get the sense that many hold a negative connotation of power. Or perhaps they lean towards the idea that power is mostly a Yang thing. But I can’t help but think that Yin has its own power, one not associated with control and violence.

 

For instance I think about Gandhi and Martin Luther King. These were arguably powerful men. Yet it didn’t come from the end of a gun. And while they may have had incredible influence and don’t see how they were coercive.

 

Jeff I will try to think a bit more on the relationship between power and authority. Oh and Par, I don’t believe that in physics power is the same as force. I think you are right in that F = ma. But power is given by P = W/t. That is, power is equal to work over time.

[Guest end3]

Well I suppose I am somewhat pleased to finally see some responses here Par, Jeff and VC. And I think what you’ve said is interesting. My own thoughts about power are kind of vague, which is why I brought it up. I was interested in seeing what some of you thought about it.

 

I still get the sense that many hold a negative connotation of power. Or perhaps they lean towards the idea that power is mostly a Yang thing. But I can’t help but think that Yin has its own power, one not associated with control and violence.

 

For instance I think about Gandhi and Martin Luther King. These were arguably powerful men. Yet it didn’t come from the end of a gun. And while they may have had incredible influence and don’t see how they were coercive.

 

Jeff I will try to think a bit more on the relationship between power and authority. Oh and Par, I don’t believe that in physics power is the same as force. I think you are right in that F = ma. But power is given by P = W/t. That is, power is equal to work over time.

 

Of the few things I have actually heard that were from MLK, I don't know that they were aimed so much at the race thing, but to me his words had an underlying current referencing God......but you have to listen closely. Kind of like Neil Diamond's 12 songs album.....deep water if you are listening. So, is that where the power lies?

 

Again, I think you are right on in the relationship aspect. Truely, to me if you know an intracasy of a relationship, doesn't it give you the "power" to know where to stand? Works for science, humanity, etc...

[Casey]

Here's something to think about. Power is an amalgamation of three things, The Will, The Skill, and The Means. Let us suppose you want to build a house by yourself. Well, you had better have the will to build it, hadn't you? And that means more than the will to get out of bed in the morning. However, that won't mean anything if you haven't skill enough to nail two planks of wood together, will it? Then lastly, you must have the means to build the house. Either the materials you need exist in your locality, or they must be purchased with money or obtained in some other way.

 

Between that and obtaining political or military power there is no difference; in fact all human activity is based on the same triangle of The Will, The Skill, and The Means. However, while we may observe that a triangle is the most stable geometric figure, that only holds for an equilateral triangle. If we take The Will to be the foundation, and that to be of a certain length, then the other two legs must be of the same length, lest the figure be skewed and eventually collapse. The longer one leg is by comparison to the others, the more Scalene (unstable) the triangle will be. Simple as that. Think on it.

Casey

[Antlerman]

The definition that comes closest to my own is… Power is the ability to affect change. And this seems to agree both with the physicist’s definition and the sociologist’s.

It's more than just the ability to effect change, but the product of the ability to do work and the actual energy in motion in doing work. In electronic devices, Voltage is the amount of electrical potential available to the circuit created though an overage and conversely a deficiency of electrons at the opposite side. Amperage is a measure of the actual flow of electrons moving from one side of the potential to the other through a load of devices offering resistance to the flow, thus creating a harnessing of the discharge in order to do work. Thus P=IE; Power equals Voltage x Current. Power is the measure of both the potential to do work, and energy released through a circuit designed to do work (ie, light a bulb, turn a fan, etc).

 

So with that said, metaphorically speaking, if potential is created through adding an overage of electronics to some atoms and the natural tendency is to seek balance and expel them through a field of resistance to give to those who have a lack of electrons to bring them into balance, and the pathways of resistance in between are harnessed to take advantage of the flow of energy, how does this relate to how we function as a society? Those who hold an abundance of wealth and means and stuff it into their greedy little pockets are to be considered as violating the very rules of nature? That they should not be considered as powerful at all, but rather just unused batteries since there is no work done, sitting and corroding and becoming useless? On the other hand, those who do give to those who lack.... etc. Fill in the blanks and create your own analogies...

 

OK, so your thoughts?

[Legion]

End, Casey, Antlerman thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m not feeling well right now, but I hope to return to this thread in the next couple of days when I start to feel a little better.

[Guest end3]

End, Casey, Antlerman thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m not feeling well right now, but I hope to return to this thread in the next couple of days when I start to feel a little better.

 

 

Gluttony by turkey and dressing, mashed potatoes and hot buttered rolls will help. Hope you have a good Thanksgiving....

 

To everyone else as well....

[Legion]

Okay guys, I am feeling somewhat better and I will try to address what each of you has said.

 

his words had an underlying current referencing God......

 

So, is that where the power lies?

End, I have little doubt that MLK’s faith played a significant role in his power. But I see it mainly in political terms. And I think this is most vividly demonstrated if we change the name of his god and consider what might have been the consequences.

 

“Free at last! Free at last! Thank Allah Almighty, we are free at last!”

 

I strongly suspect that had these been his words then not only would his support have been greatly diminished but that he would have encountered even greater opposition. I think by appealing to a god common to his culture that culture was better able to identify with him despite the differences in skin color and the prejudice arising from it.

 

Here's something to think about. Power is an amalgamation of three things, The Will, The Skill, and The Means.

Casey, I find some resonance with what you have said here. The will, the skill and the means. I will likely think about this further as you have suggested.

 

OK, so your thoughts?

Antlerman, to be honest I am somewhat disappointed with what you have said here. I am not all interested in “shoulds” here. I think it matters not one iota what power “should” be. In my opinion the only thing that matters is what power actually is. More specifically, what characterizes an agent’s or agency’s power?

 

I suppose that I would have to PM you to get the information, for I suspect that few are willing to divulge the information. But I recognize that you yourself are a powerful person A-man. What is the nature of your power?

[Antlerman]

OK, so your thoughts?

Antlerman, to be honest I am somewhat disappointed with what you have said here. I am not all interested in “shoulds” here. I think it matters not one iota what power “should” be. In my opinion the only thing that matters is what power actually is. More specifically, what characterizes an agent’s or agency’s power?

You must still be recoverying from being ill, so I'll cut you some slack. I wasn't suggesting what power should be. I was saying what power is not in my saying that they should not consider someone who holds wealth greedily as being powerful. They aren't, they're just greedy and useless because they hord and not put to use their potentials (read above).

 

I suppose that I would have to PM you to get the information, for I suspect that few are willing to divulge the information. But I recognize that you yourself are a powerful person A-man. What is the nature of your power?

Well that's a difficult question to answer, as I don't really view myself as "powerful" per se. I would say I have certain strengths I could recognize in myself, and at times it can manifest itself in helpful ways. At times like that I can experience power, but not in the sense of "feeling full of power", quite the contrary. I would say it's more in seeing the effect outside myself and finding satisfaction that good was accomplished. That's what defines power, but that's something that happens outside one's self. We are just potential, and getting out of the way to let that potential become usable is what allows us to experience the nature of power. No one in that sense is powerful.

[Guest end3]

I think most are saying the same thing LR, the words are just a little different. The will, the skill, the means. Education, discernment, a good mind.....it all seems to relate to our understanding how things relate, humans, physical happenings/needs. Those who understand the relationships are more apt to be more powerful I would wager....I digress.

[Vomit Comet]

Don't forget, it's also the ability to deliver the goods. Consider that the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution, not to mention the Nazi takeover of Germany, would not have succeeded if the militaries of those countries hadn't decided that their best interests lay with the usurpers rather than with the status quo.

 

Also, one of the main reasons MLK got so far was because Malcolm X and the Black Panthers scared the shit out of white people. MLK became the safe, palpable alternative to the white man's nightmare.

[par4dcourse]

Oh and Par, I don’t believe that in physics power is the same as force. I think you are right in that F = ma. But power is given by P = W/t. That is, power is equal to work over time.

Quite right. I often see things slightly askew over here in Electric Larryland.

[Guest Net Eng]

Don't forget, it's also the ability to deliver the goods. Consider that the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution, not to mention the Nazi takeover of Germany, would not have succeeded if the militaries of those countries hadn't decided that their best interests lay with the usurpers rather than with the status quo.

 

This play into Casey's "The Will, The Skill, and The Means" post. Here you cover The Means. But without the other two do you really have "power"??

 

The more I have contemplated Legion's power question I have come back to these three elements (although P=IE takes me back to my electronics days...).

 

 

BTW: "What you cannot enforce, do not command." - Sophocles