agnosticator Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 According to the new testament, if a serial killer or mass murderer repents and is converted, he/she is forgiven and goes to heaven. If an unbeliever or exbeliever was a good person who treated others kindly all of his/her life (as in the golden rule), he/she will go straight to hell. How is this not cruel? How is this fair? The christian god is shown to be loving on the one hand (heaven/forgiveness), yet cruel on the other (hell/vengeance). How is the christian god NOT ambivalent? THIS IS MY QUESTION TO CHRISTIANS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 12, 2008 Super Moderator Share Posted November 12, 2008 The answer from Xians will be that ALL have sinned and only the blood of Jebus can keep us from the Hell we all deserve. The best person on Earth is still shit in the eyes of Gawd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 12, 2008 Author Share Posted November 12, 2008 The answer from Xians will be that ALL have sinned and only the blood of Jebus can keep us from the Hell we all deserve. The best person on Earth is still shit in the eyes of Gawd. Yes, and the shittiest person is, in the end, the apple of god's eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogilvy Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 According to the new testament, if a serial killer or mass murderer repents and is converted, he/she is forgiven and goes to heaven. If an unbeliever or exbeliever was a good person who treated others kindly all of his/her life (as in the golden rule), he/she will go straight to hell. How is this not cruel? How is this fair? The christian god is shown to be loving on the one hand (heaven/forgiveness), yet cruel on the other (hell/vengeance). How is the christian god NOT ambivalent? THIS IS MY QUESTION TO CHRISTIANS. They will say God is not cruel because: God has the right to do what he wants (how does that make him not cruel??) God doesnt send people to hell, they send themselves there (how is it not cruel of him to have made such a place as hell?) God has to punish sin (how is hell not a cruel way of punishing sin?) God had to give us free will, which means that some people reject him and therefore must be punished in hell (how is it not cruel of God to have created such a system, knowing from the start that billions would reject him?) Hell is not a place of eternal torment, it's just separation from God (It still is portrayed as a terrible fate, not a happy place, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, which is still cruel) Oh yes, and they will say God could not be cruel, because he sent Jesus to die for our sins (that doesnt negate the fact that he set up a cruel system which necessitated Jesus to do that, and doesnt alter the fact that its cruel to torture people forever in hell) They cannot admit to God being cruel, because if they did, they would have nothing to hold on to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 This subject makes for a very true reality: God is not ambivalent, he is in fact benevolent. God gives a period of time, your entire life, in which you must make a decision for Christ. That choice must be made before you die, or else God must throw you into hell, because he is perfect and incapable of error therefore he is not a dictator in the eyes of the believer. In the eyes of the unbeliever, he is a benevolent dictator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 What the OP describes is not ambivalence. It is just injustice. But there are indications that God can't make up his mind about salvation for there is plenty of evidence that salvation is by works, which contradicts salvation by faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 12, 2008 Author Share Posted November 12, 2008 This subject makes for a very true reality: God is not ambivalent, he is in fact benevolent. God gives a period of time, your entire life, in which you must make a decision for Christ. That choice must be made before you die, or else God must throw you into hell, because he is perfect and incapable of error therefore he is not a dictator in the eyes of the believer. In the eyes of the unbeliever, he is a benevolent dictator. Emphasis on MUST: We must accept or be tortured, and god must torture us. How benevolent is that for the unbeliever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 12, 2008 Author Share Posted November 12, 2008 What the OP describes is not ambivalence. It is just injustice. But there are indications that God can't make up his mind about salvation for there is plenty of evidence that salvation is by works, which contradicts salvation by faith. Ambivalence in that he has a love/hate "feeling" towards humanity. Sort of like an abusive spouse who both loves and hates his partner. He doesn't "hate the sin and love the sinner" because the sinner is hellbound. On the one hand, he claims to love us (save us) while condemning us to eternal torture -unless you accept and love him like Big Brother. You are right about the works/faith problem. The new testament supports both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 13, 2008 Author Share Posted November 13, 2008 I should have worded the OP differently to make it clearer about ambivalence. Both believers and nonbelievers are equal morally as a whole. There are "good" and "bad" in both groups. The christian god has a love/hate relationship with all humans until they BELIEVE, making human morality irrelevant. A christian can murder and still be forgiven: The "true christian" argument =the "true scotsman" fallacy, so it is possible for a christian to murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 This subject makes for a very true reality: God is not ambivalent, he is in fact benevolent. God gives a period of time, your entire life, in which you must make a decision for Christ. That choice must be made before you die, or else God must throw you into hell, because he is perfect and incapable of error therefore he is not a dictator in the eyes of the believer. In the eyes of the unbeliever, he is a benevolent dictator. Emphasis on MUST: We must accept or be tortured, and god must torture us. How benevolent is that for the unbeliever? I should have put quote marks around "benevolent dictator". It is an oxymoron of course, but if Christianity is true, God does give humanity some time before a decision must be made (average life expectancy in the USA is around 75 to 80 years old now). Again, you are not a making a choice but you don't face that "choice" until your death. From the Christian angle, not the angle of unbelief, it is benevolent. From the angle of the unbeliever, it is dictatorial. My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted November 13, 2008 Author Share Posted November 13, 2008 Got it...I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 God is evil. Why does he let people suffer from things they have no control over (i.e the starving people who are living under oppressive dictatorships)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 (i.e the starving people who are living under oppressive dictatorships)? Oppressive dictatorships that God set up according to the Bible... (all government being appointed by him, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted December 11, 2008 Author Share Posted December 11, 2008 God is evil. Why does he let people suffer from things they have no control over (i.e the starving people who are living under oppressive dictatorships)? Rom. 8:28: all things work together for the good of those who love him. In otherwords, those who believe and obey will share in his sufferings. Both good and bad are to be appreciated. God values suffering. Those who are starving should thank god and accept their fate gladly, for their reward is pie-in-the-sky! How sick is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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