I Really Did Believe ... But They Say I Didn't

[Snafutopia]

Hi. Newbie here. I used to be a devout Christian (Baptist, specifically). That was several years ago. Now a Christian friend tells me I was never really a Christian, because her church teaches that real Christians don't become ex-Christians.

 

This friendship is important to me, and I've tried my best to have a sincere, heart to heart discussion about this, but I don't know what to say anymore.

 

It just really hurts, to have friends tell me I didn't "really" believe, when I know I did.

 

It's basically being told that that whole period of my life didn't really exist.

 

Worse, it's like being told I don't exist. Because "there's no such thing as an apostate." Example: "If a person denounces God that means they never really believed in God in the first place."

 

How do you maintain friendships with Christians who sincerely mean well but have this, well I don't even know what to call it -- they've been taught by their religious leaders that "true" Christians will always be true Christians, and that there's no such thing as a true Christian who becomes an ex- or anti-.

 

When they finally meet an ex or an anti, they can't accept the fact that exes and antis really exist... even though they're talking to one!

 

I know they're just trying to find a way to avoid acknowledging -- especially to themselves -- that their church authorities are wrong on the subject.

 

Anyway, so I thought I'd ask you guys.

 

Thanks for feedback.

 

"Millie"

[Deva]

It just really hurts, to have friends tell me I didn't "really" believe, when I know I did.

 

It's basically being told that that whole period of my life didn't really exist.

 

Worse, it's like being told I don't exist. Because "there's no such thing as an apostate." Example: "If a person denounces God that means they never really believed in God in the first place."

 

Hi Millie, welcome to Ex-C!

 

Yes, I know where you are coming from. My parents are Baptist. They think of me as lost, and that is painful for me to think about too much. It would be impossible for them to acknowledge that, having left the faith, I was ever a Christian. They are from the Once Saved Always Saved crowd.

 

Even if I have success in my field, am financially well off, etc., that means nothing. They have failed because I am not a Christian.

 

They use a verse that starts out "My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me..

The ending is the kicker "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand". I didn't look it up, so some of the words of the verse may be slightly different. The point is that no one can separate a "saved" person from Christ. They are preserved in the faith by some supernatural power. Very bizarre if you think about it. A person baptized at 12 years old is supposed to think exactly the same way when they are 50. No questioning, not any problem with Christianity after they have university education, etc.

 

I don't really know how you maintain a friendship with someone who views you in this way. Essentially, they are saying that you are a liar, and that you lied about something that was very important to you and your integrity is at stake. If they have other positive qualities such that you want to remain in their company, all I can suggest is that the topic of religion is not discussed.

[florduh]

Welcome, Millie.

 

That's what they say to all of us because it helps them maintain the illusion that it's all real. It isn't.

 

Sadly, the old Christian friends usually choose their superstition over friendship. You may find many (or all) of them never loved you as the real person you are. They liked to be with you because you verified that their belief was right.

 

Good luck with your new rational life, and enjoy your stay here.

[Ouroboros]

Millie,

 

Welcome to the club. We all have heard the phrase: "you were never a true Christian," about 500 times each. Every other Christian thinks that way. Simply because if there was the slightest chance you can be a real Christian and yet reject God/Jesus/etc, then they're in danger too. Suddenly their belief isn't as rock solid as they thought.

 

Here's the issue though: if you felt that you were a "True" Christian, and if you spent all those years trying to be a true Christian, and find the real meaning of the Gospel, then why would God let you be fooled and tricked for all those years? Why wouldn't God reward you with the True belief if you actually honestly tried to find it? So what they are saying with their statement is basically, you never gave yourself into it, you never tried to be Christian, you just hung around for the girls/boys, or you pretended to be Christian because your parents made you. But you know that it's not true. You know that you seriously believed and wanted to be a real and good Christian. So God failed to live up your wish. Yes, if God exists, then God intentionally made you a fake Christian. Ain't that something?

[par4dcourse]

Hi Millie, and welcome to the forum.

As Han said, we've all heard the "never a true believer" line as often as the "once saved always saved" bs.

Its as stupid as saying that you never believed in santa because you don't now (if you do, I apologize for screwing up xmas) or saying that once you believe in santa you always really believe, whether you think so or not. Desperate prattle from desperate people.

[Guest awake now]

Hi Millie,

 

I would have to agree with the other folks that responded. I won't reiterate what was said. I want to remind you that you DID believe and what you know to be true about yourself is, indeed, true about yourself and no one can undo that. They may try to tell you that you didn't truly believe, but can they get inside your head and actually determine that?

 

I can understand wanting to maintain friendships, but I'm not sure I could easily overlook this judgement they've made of you. I agree, you may just have to make a point that religion is simply not up for discussion.

 

I'm still very new in my "coming out" about not being a Christian, not believing in the Bible god, etc. In fact, outside of my immediate family (hubby, daughter) I have only told my mother. If she ever pulls that "once a believer always a believer" nonsense on me she and I are going to have to have a heart-to-heart.

 

Luckily, she has not done this and I don't think she will. My sister, however, is an entirely different matter and something I'm avoiding like the plague. That is why, to this day I've "played along" pretending to still be a Christian. But, this is easy to do when I only see her about once a year. This will be the first Christmas spent with her that I have completely freed myself of the Christian mythology. Not sure how this is going to go becuase I can't keep committing infidelity against myself by lying about who I am and what I believe or don't belie.

 

I commend you on being true to yourself and working to maintain your relationships despite strong differences in opinions/beliefs.

[Snafutopia]

{{{hugs to you all}}} Thank you all for taking the time to help me with this.

 

And how sad that this thing about "you were never a real Christian" is so common! {{hugs}}

 

Sincere sympathy to all of you who've been on treated so hurtfully, and especially to those of you are still dealing with the fallout in family relationships. That is heartbreaking.

 

You've all given me a lot to think about, and I deeply appreciate the fresh perspective on this.

[Snafutopia]

Oops, sorry for the confusing sentence there. "Sincere sympathy to all of you who've been on treated so hurtfully.." should read "Sincere sympathy to all of you who've been treated so hurtfully.."

[Neon Genesis]

They use a verse that starts out "My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me..

The ending is the kicker "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand". I didn't look it up, so some of the words of the verse may be slightly different. The point is that no one can separate a "saved" person from Christ. They are preserved in the faith by some supernatural power.

I always wondered what justification they had for this bizarre idea, but didn't Jesus himself also say that blaspheming the Holy Spirit was the unpardonable sin? If a sin can be unpardonable, then isn't it possible for true Christians to deconvert? Besides, doesn't the bible also say that no one is righteous and anyone who says they're righteous is a liar, thus there are no "true" Christians? I try to remind myself that if Christianity isn't true, then they were never "true" Christians either, but I agree with Deva that the best thing is to probably to not discuss religion. They also say the three things you should never talk about with people is religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin.

[RevOxley_501]

Hi. Newbie here. I used to be a devout Christian (Baptist, specifically). That was several years ago. Now a Christian friend tells me I was never really a Christian, because her church teaches that real Christians don't become ex-Christians.

 

This friendship is important to me, and I've tried my best to have a sincere, heart to heart discussion about this, but I don't know what to say anymore.

 

It just really hurts, to have friends tell me I didn't "really" believe, when I know I did.

 

It's basically being told that that whole period of my life didn't really exist.

 

Worse, it's like being told I don't exist. Because "there's no such thing as an apostate." Example: "If a person denounces God that means they never really believed in God in the first place."

 

How do you maintain friendships with Christians who sincerely mean well but have this, well I don't even know what to call it -- they've been taught by their religious leaders that "true" Christians will always be true Christians, and that there's no such thing as a true Christian who becomes an ex- or anti-.

 

When they finally meet an ex or an anti, they can't accept the fact that exes and antis really exist... even though they're talking to one!

 

I know they're just trying to find a way to avoid acknowledging -- especially to themselves -- that their church authorities are wrong on the subject.

 

Anyway, so I thought I'd ask you guys.

 

Thanks for feedback.

 

"Millie"

 

Hi millie, unfortunately this is the #1 argument I hear, and what it says to me is that 1: you cant think of anything better and want to throw up a strawman 2: aren't intellectually honest and 3: have poor biblical understanding. you will run into this a thousand times and these folks aren't willing to listen to reason anyway.

 

welcome to the forums

[Deva]

I always wondered what justification they had for this bizarre idea, but didn't Jesus himself also say that blaspheming the Holy Spirit was the unpardonable sin? If a sin can be unpardonable, then isn't it possible for true Christians to deconvert?

 

It depends on what you think he meant by the "unpardonable sin". I had heard the interpretation that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was rejection of Christ, not literally bad mouthing the Holy Spirit. The unsaved who rejected Christ were the only ones who committed the unpardonable sin.

[Vendredie]

I've never discussed my belief in-depth wit hthe sort of people who would say "you never believed"... but they're still stupid and scared and you being an ex collapses their worldview of "once saved always saved".

 

I for one did believe though. All of us did. And all of us left. I was baptized at 7. I'm almost 17 now. That's ten years! Am I really suppsoed to think the same way I did when I was 7? Well if I am I don't... I'm now more of a pnatheistic Pagan now (though one could say I am an atheist). I'm not the little Christian girl I was at 7.

[Roan7995]

Leave it to a Christian to deny what is tangible, and place faith in what is not. When it comes down to it, you're going to be sorely let down any time you try to explain yourself to one of them. It would seem that relationships with theists are best maintained when the subject is avoided.

[PocketAces]

Hi. Newbie here. I used to be a devout Christian (Baptist, specifically). That was several years ago. Now a Christian friend tells me I was never really a Christian, because her church teaches that real Christians don't become ex-Christians.

 

This friendship is important to me, and I've tried my best to have a sincere, heart to heart discussion about this, but I don't know what to say anymore.

 

It just really hurts, to have friends tell me I didn't "really" believe, when I know I did.

 

It's basically being told that that whole period of my life didn't really exist.

 

Worse, it's like being told I don't exist. Because "there's no such thing as an apostate." Example: "If a person denounces God that means they never really believed in God in the first place."

 

How do you maintain friendships with Christians who sincerely mean well but have this, well I don't even know what to call it -- they've been taught by their religious leaders that "true" Christians will always be true Christians, and that there's no such thing as a true Christian who becomes an ex- or anti-.

 

When they finally meet an ex or an anti, they can't accept the fact that exes and antis really exist... even though they're talking to one!

 

I know they're just trying to find a way to avoid acknowledging -- especially to themselves -- that their church authorities are wrong on the subject.

 

Anyway, so I thought I'd ask you guys.

 

Thanks for feedback.

 

"Millie"

 

something i remember when people tell me that is a part in Hebrews that talks about people who have tasted the fruit and still have rejected God. so i'll quote that, and just tell them, i'm living proof that verse is true.

[R. S. Martin]

Heb. 10: ²⁶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, ²⁷ But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ²⁸ He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: ²⁹ Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

I'm not sure if this is the passage or not. It does not sound as threatening as it used to. I even noticed a loophole when I read it this time: If we "count" the "blood of the covenant" an "unholy thing"--in other words, it's all in our minds--then and only then is there meaning in any of this. There is no literal meaning or value in the blood of Jesus at all, or in his death. It's all in our minds. I never knew this. Nobody ever told me. They said Jesus' death opened heaven's gates so I believed it did. I figured it was my job to figure out how it worked. Since I couldn't figure out how it worked, and people refused to clarify for me, I had to deconvert because I refused to go on lying about sacred matters.

 

I spent close to forty years, and much anguish of heart, in my efforts to figure this out. Now they tell me I was never a real Christian to begin with. If I dislike this charge and respond with less than perfect politeness, it's me who gets accusations of being the angry atheist and having "issues" I need to "deal" with. I figure it's them talking to the mirror. By that I mean the theory that sometimes people repress the unwanted truth about themselves and project it onto another person, then attack that person.

 

Welcome to the crowd, Millie. You're among friends.

[OnceConvinced]

There are many scriptures that indicate it is possible to be an ex-christian and many more that strongly suggest it. Paul himself even acknowledged that it was possible for him to fall from grace and often warned about the possibility of people falling away. The whole story of the Prodical Son is a story about a Christian who rejected God, but yet he was welcomed back with open arms.

 

I am still at the stage where when people try to tell me I was never a true Christian it riles me up. No doubt in time, it won't bother me so much. But at the moment it still does. I have an advantage and that's that I was a Christian for more than 30 years. When the parable of the sower is brought up I can show that I do not fit into any of the four categories as my Christianity could never be considered "short lived". I remained strong in my faith through adversities. I was one longer than the average Christian. Rarely do I come across anyone who has been a Christian longer than I. Those that are are in the older age bracket and so set in their ways they would most likely never change anyway. It is laughable to me (and down right insulting), when a Christian claims that I gave up due to trials and tribulations etc etc, when they themselves are still babes who have only just begun to experience trials and tribulations. Trials and Tribulations were most definitely not what led to me deconverting. My deconversion was due more to revelations.

 

No one (apart from one non-Christian guy I worked with) ever accused me of being a false Christian (and he was only saying so tongue n cheek to heckle me. Great guy by the way. We became good friends). Spirit filled and discerning Church leaders who knew me well, respected me and gave me positions of leadership never suspected I was not a true Christian. God certainly never told them. Why would God even allow someone like me in those roles? Why would God allow me to go that long believing I was worshiping him when I wasn't? Is that the kind of miserable, asshole of a deity he is? Using these arguments I find that very few people can give a logical or rational reply and it's usually about then that the debate ends.

[PocketAces]

Heb. 10: ²⁶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, ²⁷ But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ²⁸ He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: ²⁹ Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

I'm not sure if this is the passage or not. It does not sound as threatening as it used to. I even noticed a loophole when I read it this time: If we "count" the "blood of the covenant" an "unholy thing"--in other words, it's all in our minds--then and only then is there meaning in any of this. There is no literal meaning or value in the blood of Jesus at all, or in his death. It's all in our minds. I never knew this. Nobody ever told me. They said Jesus' death opened heaven's gates so I believed it did. I figured it was my job to figure out how it worked. Since I couldn't figure out how it worked, and people refused to clarify for me, I had to deconvert because I refused to go on lying about sacred matters.

 

I spent close to forty years, and much anguish of heart, in my efforts to figure this out. Now they tell me I was never a real Christian to begin with. If I dislike this charge and respond with less than perfect politeness, it's me who gets accusations of being the angry atheist and having "issues" I need to "deal" with. I figure it's them talking to the mirror. By that I mean the theory that sometimes people repress the unwanted truth about themselves and project it onto another person, then attack that person.

 

Welcome to the crowd, Millie. You're among friends.

 

i just found the verse i was referencing too:

 

Hebrews 6

 

1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits. 4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

[Snafutopia]

{{hugs to you all}} Thank you all for taking the time to reply to my tale of whiney woe! My heart goes out to all of you. Sorry it took me a while to get back here. Such a crazy time of year.

 

Now shall I whine about having a lousy cold? No, I shall be merciful lol

 

Seriously though, what a relief is has been to find this place and "meet" you all. Am looking forward to spending more time reading here.

 

Update re the Christian who told me I never really believed -- I just assumed she got the whole idea from her church authorities, in a sermon or a class or maybe she read about it somewhere. She said no, nobody ever told her about it, and the only place she read about it was in the Bible, and the Bible is infallible.

 

So I said, of course the Bible isn't infallible, but for the sake of discussion let's say it is -- in that case, you've simply misinterpreted whatever it was that led you to believe that a believer doesn't ever become an unbeliever.

 

She said no, she didn't misinterpret anything.

 

I said, can you acknowlege that it's at least possible that you've misinterpreted it?

 

She said, no, she would not acknowlege such a thing because it is not even possible.

 

So, the Bible is infallible, and so is she?

 

This whole thing has come as a huge surprise to me, as I've worked side by side with this woman for a solid year -- we've laughed and cried together about so many things and seemed to really be friends. I knew she was a Christian, and she knew I was an unbeliever, but all this time I had absolutely no idea she held such extreme beliefs. It's like, beneath the mask of an ordinary, decent, normal, civilized, rational, polite person, there was all this time lurking this arrogant, hate-filled, wacko.

 

It's just so disconcerting.

 

Anyway, so thank you all again for helping me understand this thing better. I really appreciate you all.

[Snafutopia]

uh... "wacko" is such a mean word, sorry. Not quite sure what word to use.

[PaulQ]

Just a reply to the OP, I got the exact same line from my sister. While it is true that I had always had certain doubts, it isn't true that I didn't believe; I contend that I believed just as strongly as anyone could. She still maintains that I never believed, so I maintain that she's delusional, and we're both happy.

[Insanity personified]

ask them what special powers they have that give them special insight into the inner workings of your mind. Who are they to tell you what you did and didn't believe?

 

when christians say stuff like that, it's not meant as an actual argument against apostasy, all it does is keep the christian comfortably inside his/her little faith bubble. Christians are willing To jump through just about any logical hurdle imaginable in order to keep the faith bubble from popping

[ogilvy]

They use a verse that starts out "My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me..

The ending is the kicker "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand". I didn't look it up, so some of the words of the verse may be slightly different. The point is that no one can separate a "saved" person from Christ. They are preserved in the faith by some supernatural power.

I always wondered what justification they had for this bizarre idea, but didn't Jesus himself also say that blaspheming the Holy Spirit was the unpardonable sin? If a sin can be unpardonable, then isn't it possible for true Christians to deconvert? Besides, doesn't the bible also say that no one is righteous and anyone who says they're righteous is a liar, thus there are no "true" Christians? I try to remind myself that if Christianity isn't true, then they were never "true" Christians either, but I agree with Deva that the best thing is to probably to not discuss religion. They also say the three things you should never talk about with people is religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin.

e

Ha, I was just about to express the same sentiment....If Christianity isn't true, then they are not Christians themselves, nor is anyone. I think being a Christian is about being 'born again of the Holy Spirit', but if there is no Holy Spirit, there's nothing to be Christian about.

 

I don't know if it's really possible for your friendship with a Christian to remain unscathed, now that you no longer believe. It will definitely get in the way, as you have already found.

[Snafutopia]

Just a reply to the OP, I got the exact same line from my sister. While it is true that I had always had certain doubts, it isn't true that I didn't believe; I contend that I believed just as strongly as anyone could. She still maintains that I never believed, so I maintain that she's delusional, and we're both happy.

 

 

You've got a great sense of humor!

[Snafutopia]

ask them what special powers they have that give them special insight into the inner workings of your mind. Who are they to tell you what you did and didn't believe?

 

 

It seems that "the inner workings of my mind" are no match for the inner workings of her infallibility.

 

As I said, this is the first time anybody ever told me I "didn't really believe" what I know darn well I did believe -- I've been so surprised, my brain is kind of going ... "huh? what? whuh?????!" LOL It's been a comfort learning from you guys that this has been a part of the journey for many ex-christians.

[Snafutopia]

If Christianity isn't true, then they are not Christians themselves, nor is anyone. I think being a Christian is about being 'born again of the Holy Spirit', but if there is no Holy Spirit, there's nothing to be Christian about.

 

hmm. Never thought of it that way. Basically when I refer to people as Christians, what I mean is, they have certain beliefs and/or think/behave in certain ways as a result of those beliefs.

 

 

 

I don't know if it's really possible for your friendship with a Christian to remain unscathed, now that you no longer believe. It will definitely get in the way, as you have already found.

 

We've basically stopped speaking to each other. I'd much prefer to continue trying to discuss the subject, as I find it fascinating, but she says she is a "child of God" and I'm a "child of the Devil." (I need a roll-ee eyes smiley here lol)